April 2018 Version Update

I guess it just depends what you're fighting and what job you're on. NIN has the advantage where physical AOE moves are going to be negated by shadows anyways; you're evading those tp moves to begin with, so that advantage is a wash. Also, parry doesn't work on magical aoe, and shadows are wiped there as well, so same scenario. Counter has to go through a number of checks, but NIN already gains a 20% counter rate through Job points when parrying an attack. Which presents an interest choice. Should you increase your parry rate (which would inevitably increase your counter rate anyways) or just stack on 10 more counter. NIN also gains Issekigan, a move I only use when I'm having a little trouble keeping shadows up and Migawari is constantly being wiped.

Now if we're talking about a job that isn't utilizing Utsusemi as effectively, then the counter argument becomes less impressive, since I believe you can counter Parry a tp move not directed at you.

This is just an example, but the point I'm making overall is that these augments are very good and very close together, you would need to do math with a magnifying glass to determine which option is the clear winner. This is tough just eyeballing it.

disregard, useless augment for NIN

i.e. the PUP one you mentioned. You could theoretically add more regen to your automaton, since AP4 + MJ4/OFs already cover physical/magical defense, and you'd be using ARK4.. The Pet DT augment might favor non 1200 gift PUPs more than Mastered ones, since they have less capacity for the higher attachment, and would need to drop a tier to maintain. We would need some of the community players to really deep dive into each stat and determine what's the best option. My guess is, as always, "it depends".

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure parry is checked before shadows. That said I'm having a hard time finding any sort of references on BGwiki about the defensive check order.

Can Empyrean AM trigger on counters? If so, that could be an interesting tanking/DDing hybrid cape option for jobs that use Empys (especially two handed jobs).

I'll be honest, I just Googled for the order and found a reference to the wiki stating that's the check series. I'm out and about, but will duplicate the search later. If it is incorrect, I apologize. Just Googling was lazy on my part.

Is there a warp to Orcs that doesn't take 2 warps?

Sure it is right next to Mount Doom.

I'm having some doubts myself, so if you find some reputable references I'd like to see them. And I might look into figuring out where on the wiki this sort of thing would go... maybe links form the evasion/parry pages. etc. I dunno. but I think this need to be better documented.

Parry is checked before shadows and the information on wiki reflects this so I don't know what any of you are going on about.

Could you provide a link to that on the wiki please? I looked on the parry and evasion pages but didn't see anything about it. So either I'm blind or I was looking at the wrong page.

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Parrying_Skill

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Copy_Image

It's probably on other pages too but I don't care enough to more thoroughly research something that's common knowledge.

Parry seems better for survivability, counter for parse nerds trying to get single digit more dps.

Yeah, I wasn't going to old wiki. And didn't look on the actual copy image buff page. I think it would be good if there were a page the covered the defensive order of operations for everything... no idea what the heck that would be called though

Here is the thread I had found. It's old and wrong, but was unquestioned at the time:
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/28551/counter-question/

The linked post said this about counter;
This is entirely correct. However it does not state that the checks occur in the order listed. There's nothing wrong in this thread, you're just misinterpreting the statements made.

Reading up on this stuff, I need to get clarification. I may have been misinformed and jumped the gun.


This means you can't counter an attack that is shadow absorbed? Making it close to useless for Ninja. Am I understanding that properly?

If you have shadows up, you cannot counter.

If you have shadows up, you can still parry.

Miss or Hit > if hit, parry > if no parry, shadow > if no shadow, counter > if no counter, damage

Correct.

Huh, BG wiki still has that bit about Shield blocks preventing enemy counters. Which was freaking glorious while it lasted, but was already ninja nerfed by SE. I'll need to gather my references and update that.

MJ is mdb not mdt so mdt will still be a lot more useful than a tiny bit of regen since if dmg is killing your auto it's usually magic. DT might be interesting for the breath moves and those weird no type ones

Am I misreading this or are you saying that shield blocks can occur on hits taken by shadows? I don't see how that could possibly be the case.

nvm ignore this now i misread it lol

Misleadingly/poorly phrased or misinterpreted; poke me over it if it makes anyone feel better. I mean, my post was wrong.
However, it is clearly not as well documented or common knowledge as stated given the resulting questions/introspections.
I'm appreciating the direction this thread is going. It could become a good reference for later.

Yeah. While there are tidbits of info here and there, I still think there needs to be a dedicated page for the proc order the various defenses. Maybe have each page link to it.

There goes my taru taru hero! Watch him as he owns.

Damn. I still don't have that HP.

I would poke you but that would probably result in some sort of He He sound effect.

Which augment is the first one supposed to be, and had you relogged to pick up new Windower resources prior to exporting?

Should add guard to that as well. I found an old wiki skillup guide that talks about leveling defensive skills (relevant portion quoted below), which is consistent with the understanding I've always had for the order of priority. In particular, any MNK or PUP who manually skilled up LOLGuard prior to current skillup rates/books might have a better memory of this ;)

1) Evasion >
2) Parry >
3) Shadows (Utsu or Blink) >
4) Guard or Shield Block (not possible to have both, if you have a shield equipped you can't guard) >
5) Counter (understandably not listed in the below guide, since the author is focused on skilling up defensive combat skills)



I don't think dmg (either physical or magic) is really killing your auto anyway in a tanking gear set, so I lean toward DT- just because it's at least helpful when you AREN'T in full tanking gear and you aren't capped on either PDT or MDT (say, you get caught in pet enmity gear, WS gear, using some hybrid set with less pet DT-, etc.). Plus the BDT/weird no type moves, which are rare but can be deadly.

So, do Third eye anticipates fall into the same place as shadows in that priority? And have the same mechanics? Like, can you parry with third eye up?