New Character Development System: Master Level.

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New Character Development System: Master Level.
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By Zubis 2021-11-24 14:57:43
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Odin.Foxmulder said: »
Simon is incapable of grasping the existing reality if it rustles his personal taste jimmies.

Simon glues his legos. There is only one way to play.
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-24 15:26:12
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SimonSes said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
To give a general sense of baseline power creep, which isn't perfect, but better than labeling literally everything 119.

It woule also give incentives for new players to uograde their gear to higher ilvl ones. Someone with 119 Cizin +1 gear is going to have more incentive to improve their gear if they know they're working for ilvl 127 Flamma +2 or ilvl 129 Sakpata (or whatever levels), since most players aren't good at evaluating sets on their own.

Yeah and you would have everyone full timing highest ilvl even when it's totally wrong to full time. That would be for sure helpful. Im done discussing this, because we are clearly on two opposite sides here and wont understand each other at all.
Better than having people sit in 5/5 Eschite because it's all 119 to them.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-24 16:26:38
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Do you think people wearing 5/5 eschite have +2 ambu and ody gear in the wardrobe and just don't know which is better or do you think that's all they have?
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-24 17:25:07
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No, I think there's a good number of people wearing 5/5 Eschite aren't motivated to get better gear because they are fooled by it all being 119 and similar enough to each other. I've actually spoken to multiple people like that.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-11-24 17:56:22
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I don't have statistics to tell how MANY of those people there are around and which % of the overall currently playing people they represent.
But I can confirm I've talked to several people like that, alas.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-24 17:58:57
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It has nothing to do with motivation because of Ilevel, it has to do with the fact that people who used to make groups to get gear now sell the gear to them instead.

There is a financial incentive for veteran players to not help new players gear up, and instead sell it to them. These veteran players then complain about players walking around in gear they got themselves instead of buying their merc wares or RMT that undercut them.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-24 18:12:51
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I feel like the people arguing that ilvl doesn't matter, or that it's too difficulty, IMPOSSIBIBBLE to label an item over 119 (ridiculous) are suffering from a mental block that causes them to believe that, if SE were to make higher and higher ilvl numbers and consistently roll out new and stronger equipment (new carrots on the stick, as it were), then the game becomes more like XIV/WoW/insertotherMMOXIAHboogeymanhere.

I can't come up with any other rational explanation for it. There is a logical, measurable, noticeable power difference between starter 119 gear and current 119 gear. It is irrefutable fact, completely and utterly. Our current player level is probably somewhere around 133-135, and we're still wearing 119 equipment.

SE has been doing what you're so afraid of for like 10 years now, they've just safeguarded your mind from noticing by keeping the pretty little "119" in the lower right corner of your new shinies. Get over it.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-11-24 18:13:19
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RadialArcana said: »
It has nothing to do with motivation because of Ilevel, it has to do with the fact that people who used to make groups to get gear now sell the gear to them instead.

There is a financial incentive for veteran players to not help new players gear up, and instead sell it to them. These veteran players then complain about players walking around in gear they got themselves instead of buying their merc wares or RMT that undercut them.
While true that's neither here nor there.

There's 600 pieces with the same exact theoretical maximum 119. 119 = 119 = 119

You can tell someone that's not true, but it looks like it is and that's all that matters.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I feel like the people arguing that ilvl doesn't matter, or that it's too difficulty, IMPOSSIBIBBLE to label an item over 119 (ridiculous) are suffering from a mental block that causes them to believe that, if SE were to make higher and higher ilvl numbers and consistently roll out new and stronger equipment (new carrots on the stick, as it were), then the game becomes more like XIV/WoW/insertotherMMOXIAHboogeymanhere.

I can't come up with any other rational explanation for it. There is a logical, measurable, noticeable power difference between starter 119 gear and current 119 gear. It is irrefutable fact, completely and utterly. Our current player level is probably somewhere around 133-135, and we're still wearing 119 equipment.

SE has been doing what you're so afraid of for like 10 years now, they've just safeguarded your mind from noticing by keeping the pretty little "119" in the lower right corner of your new shinies. Get over it.
Proth posted while I was posting. This covers it accurately.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-24 19:56:55
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RadialArcana said: »
It has nothing to do with motivation because of Ilevel, it has to do with the fact that people who used to make groups to get gear now sell the gear to them instead.

There is a financial incentive for veteran players to not help new players gear up, and instead sell it to them. These veteran players then complain about players walking around in gear they got themselves instead of buying their merc wares or RMT that undercut them.
Don't try to tell me that I haven't seen what I've seen multiple times. There has been numerous occasions where I've found someone in a pickup group for something out of their league (like Omen, Dynamis-D, or Odyssey segment runs), and when I query them on their gear, they say they don't need better gear because it's all 119 and thus should be good enough.

It is absolutely an incentive problem for many people.
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 Odin.Sudra
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By Odin.Sudra 2021-11-24 20:38:24
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RadialArcana said: »
Do you think people wearing 5/5 eschite have +2 ambu and ody gear in the wardrobe and just don't know which is better or do you think that's all they have?

It’s all they have. It’s 119. “Good enough.”
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By Shichishito 2021-11-24 20:47:22
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i'm pretty sure those ppl are simply new or recently came back from a longer break and just want to participate in content. lets be honest, by the standards of this community someone returning from a break, who didn't recently go on a shopping spree at hoesales, will always be considered geared inappropriately for the content, even if it's just a ambuscade V2 VE-E pug shout.

however SE liked to pretend absolute virtue is perfectly killable with just a set of artifact/relic gear or what ever we had back then or master lvl is entirely optional and you don't have to job master for late game, there is also no gear requirement indicator for content so you can't realy blame new players.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2021-11-24 20:55:24
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Odin.Foxmulder said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Do people not get that ilevel stalling at 119 represents SE listening to the playerbase? We hated the system but it was already baked in to SoA, so rather than try to backtrack and remake the whole expansion from the ground up they put in a pin at 119 and went back to the old model.

It doesn't matter that they didn't bump the number up. +3 Reforged, Malignance, and now especially Odyssey armor are so far beyond everything else. An entirely new level of power. It's effectively the same damn thing, except without an increase to the ilvl.

Let me illustrate how ridiculous the argument that this isn't the case is. Here's examples of 119 endgame breastplates, wrapped in a meme some of you guys might be able to comprehend easier. This is how you're coming across to the rest of us.



These pieces aren't sidegrades. You don't consider using Sakpata's just for additional accuracy, STP, or some other single factor when the need arises. Hell, some people never take it off.

Do you understand now, Billy?

SE already broke from that with the above stated lines of gear. We're at an effectively much higher item level, it just isn't represented as it should be.

Pets not getting a boost is silly. We should be fighting higher level content soon (or we should have been with the introduction of such powerful gear), shouldn't they get a boost to account for that?

I personally would favor sidegrades and incremental increases in power. It means content doesn't become a complete joke. However, the reality is what it is. SE's already taken us to far beyond what 119 was.

That's, uh, pretty much exactly what I said, sport.

The item level system was abandoned as soon as it was implemented, but all of SoA and beyond was developed with the expectation of its existence so they couldn't just strip it out of the game. So instead, 119 becomes the equivalent of level-cap gear of whatever era you prefer and we're off to the races. If item level HAD been well-received, yes, odyssey gear would probably be 129 or 139 but it wasn't, so it isn't.

I did not think this would be such a difficult concept to grasp, honestly.
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By Torzak 2021-11-24 21:08:00
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If a person can't look at a piece of gear and see how the stats are relevant for their intended use-scenario, and all they go by is a 119 tag, they have a mental capacity deficit.

What 119 tag are they going by for necks, backs, rings, earrings, or ammo?

Ayanmo, Ayanmo +1, Ayanmo +2 are all 119 tagged and yet, they are all clearly not the same.
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-24 21:15:12
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And yet, that's how a lot of players play.
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By SimonSes 2021-11-24 21:21:41
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Zubis said: »
Odin.Foxmulder said: »
Simon is incapable of grasping the existing reality if it rustles his personal taste jimmies.

Simon glues his legos. There is only one way to play.

I know it was a metaphor, but it's still funny for me, because I have lots of lego. Its a mix from many different sets and with kid we build whatever we want and from time to time we destroy it to build something else completely.

Odin.Foxmulder said: »
Simon is incapable of grasping the existing reality if it rustles his personal taste jimmies.

Yep, I have problem grasping the reality in FFXI. It's totally that. Personal attacks on person you are arguing with usually means you lack arguments. I asked several questions about how to evaluate gear from last 5+ years and I havent seen even one person making attempt on that. That's why Im not gonna discuss it, because none even tries to understand my arguments. I haven't said that current gear is not a power creep over Delve 119 gear. I'm saying that we have too much stats on gear, mostly offensive, but also defensive, to clearly evaluate what should be what ilevel, even if we know some thing should be higher than 119. The power creep in recent gear is mostly in survivability, but even that is not completely true.

Asura.Geriond said: »
No, I think there's a good number of people wearing 5/5 Eschite aren't motivated to get better gear because they are fooled by it all being 119 and similar enough to each other. I've actually spoken to multiple people like that.

The problem is those people, not in the ilevel. They need to grasp the idea that gear in FFXI is situational and understand what stats they need to look for in gear for different use case. adding higher ilevel will only make them change one full time gear to other full time gear. Yes wearing full time Delve 119 is worse than wearing full time Gleti's, or full time Relic+3, but it's still bad and it's not a solution to teach those people how FFXI works at all.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2021-11-24 21:27:49
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Torzak said: »
If a person can't look at a piece of gear and see how the stats are relevant for their intended use-scenario, and all they go by is a 119 tag, they have a mental capacity deficit.

What 119 tag are they going by for necks, backs, rings, earrings, or ammo?

Ayanmo, Ayanmo +1, Ayanmo +2 are all 119 tagged and yet, they are all clearly not the same.

Delve, and with it the first round of 119 gear, came out more than 8 years ago. That is almost as long as the entire 75 era. Do people really think we'd be better off if gear had never gotten better?
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-24 21:31:47
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Torzak said: »
If a person can't look at a piece of gear and see how the stats are relevant for their intended use-scenario, and all they go by is a 119 tag, they have a mental capacity deficit.

What 119 tag are they going by for necks, backs, rings, earrings, or ammo?

Ayanmo, Ayanmo +1, Ayanmo +2 are all 119 tagged and yet, they are all clearly not the same.

Delve, and with it the first round of 119 gear, came out more than 8 years ago. That is almost as long as the entire 75 era. Do people really think we'd be better off if gear had never gotten better?

Yes because I want to play like we're at 75!
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2021-11-24 21:38:28
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Okay, so, maybe signals are getting crossed but I'm solidly on the side of "itemization is fine and this item level discourse proves the old saw about how pedantry is the last resort of the moron"
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-24 21:45:28
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SimonSes said: »
The problem is those people, not in the ilevel. They need to grasp the idea that gear in FFXI is situational and understand what stats they need to look for in gear for different use case. adding higher ilevel will only make them change one full time gear to other full time gear. Yes wearing full time Delve 119 is worse than wearing full time Gleti's, or full time Relic+3, but it's still bad and it's not a solution to teach those people how FFXI works at all.
There is nothing that will get them to learn how FFXI's battle system really works outside of a complete tutorial and UI revamp (which is less likely than extending ilvl was). You can either look how stats and combat and abilities work up online or just bumble through, and many people do not have that kind of motivation to learn without the information getting shoved in their face (or even then, since FFXI is not simple even when you know how things work).

There are no perfect solutions, but extending ilvl would at least help these types of people by giving them an incentive and a general goal.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2021-11-24 21:55:30
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Just give me a bis gear swap I don't need to know anything when my gear file can also bot for me
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By Asura.Essylt 2021-11-25 00:27:52
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Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Odin.Senaki said: »
Wow and FFXIV both feel like this to me.

That being said, we can kinda argue that Job Points, Merit Points, and now Master Levels are a type of linear vertical progression.

I guess my gripe with proper vertical GEAR progression after living it in early FFXIV is this. If you need the gear from Raid A to even do Raid B, why does gear exist at all?

That's not really how it works in 14 though. The raid gear is the pinnacle gear of every patch that has a raid in it, and every other patch introduces gear a half-step down from that, obtainable from less "hardcore" sources as a handicap to help people who can't progress straight through the raid. When new expansions start they raise the item level floor past the pinnacle gear and you start the cycle over again.

Quote:
... If there is no freedom to choose your gear (or participate in endgame content with lesser gear), why does gear exist in the first place, is the question that rattles around in my head. Like, am I crazy for thinking gear shouldn't exist at that point? It should simply be level-ups and the stat increases that comes with it that matter. I contend that gear in games that use linear gear vertical progression models is simply a shiny carrot on a stick.

The gear exists as a check you need to pass, which isn't something you can accomplish with level checks. Anyone can level up. The act of obtaining the next level of gear is meant to prove you're ready to work on the next rung of the gear ladder.
Actually, no. The only function that gear has in XIV (besides cosmetic) is to be a carrot on a stick to drive some players into content. Other than that, it's completely meaningless. If there wasn't a need to provide this incentive to raid, SE could've just granted new raid access based on the number of currency collected or some achievement. Long-term character power progression simply doesn't exist in XIV.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-25 01:19:20
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Folks be salty :D
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By Odin.Foxmulder 2021-11-25 05:29:20
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SimonSes said: »
Personal attacks on person you are arguing with usually means you lack arguments.

Usually, yeah. Here, it's venting frustration with having wasted time arguing with a dullard. I suppose I and others know better in the future.
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By SimonSes 2021-11-25 06:03:42
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Odin.Foxmulder said: »
SimonSes said: »
Personal attacks on person you are arguing with usually means you lack arguments.

Usually, yeah. Here, it's venting frustration with having wasted time arguing with a dullard. I suppose I and others know better in the future.

You are frustrated because you can't answer simple question I asked 5 times now :)
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-11-25 07:06:53
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SimonSes said: »
You are frustrated because you can't answer simple question I asked 5 times now :)

You're using disingenuous arguments. Ilevel will never be an absolute measure of everything related to strength, and there will always be times where lower ilevel gear is better for some circumstance or another than higher ilevel gear. That doesn't make the measure useless.

You wrote a whole response to my post fixating on m.eva, without bothering to read the finer points of what I said. M.eva is an easy example because it's got high enough quantities to be linearly evaluated without too much effort, but hp, mp, attributes, and evasion scale similarly as well. As Geriond said, there are exceptions because SE modifies what the ilevel calculator spits out to create equipment uniqueness. The calculation is seperate for different armor types(mage light armor, melee light armor, far eastern armor, heavy armor) and equipment slots, but across each type you see a consistant and linear ramp up from 100 to early 119 that continues in the same manner to later 119, providing an effective ilevel increase.

You get the value of the system when you look at wider scale situations. Let's say that you're recruiting for a PUG dyna-d wave 3, planning to fill out all 18 people. If you require everyone to be i130 minimum(at least partial odyssey/malignance), everyone will likely be able to stay alive and contribute meaningful damage. Without that measurement, you can get someone in eschite gear, adhemar gear, etc.. using no swaps. A shitty player with i132 in this circumstance is going to be able to contribute because they'll have adequate accuracy and m.evasion, while a shitty player with i119 would likely spend half the run either on the floor or missing nonstop.

You're only looking at this in the context of your personal understanding of the game, and you're not the target of an improved ilevel system. I would say that almost anyone in this thread understands there are times when you can sacrifice the survivability of newer era ilevel gear to gain damage by using older era ilevel gear. These people aren't going to lose that knowledge just because newer era ilevel gear gets a bigger number slapped on it. It's the people who do not have that knowledge in the first place who would benefit from clarifying effective ilevels.
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-11-25 07:34:04
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Are there things in game that scale potency/power based on your current average ilevel?

I can only think of Trusts. They have some (all?) stats that scale according to the summoner's average ilevel, but of course this ignores the real potential of the items you have equipped. It could be a first gen shitty 119 or a super tough fully augmented Odyssey 119. For those things that scale power with the player's current ilevel, they would be exactely the same.
Allowing ilevel to go beyond 119 could (emphasis on COULD) create issues they would need to address beforehands.


I just wonder: is there anything else, other than trusts, that rely on player average ilevel for something? I can't think of anything else.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-11-25 07:37:51
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I'm assuming that's the actual reason we have 119 still. They decided against letting trusts get any stronger and continuing a visible vertical progression system, but had already committed to 119. The new gear is clearly generated using the same stat calculators, and higher than 119, but labeled 119 for reasons unknown to us.

I can't imagine it would be that hard to throw on a cap of 119 base on trust(keep in mind we do have ways to increase their level past 119, such as DI gear or the quests). But, I don't expect SE has any interest in relabeling gear to begin with, so it's more of an academic argument than anything else.
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By Odin.Creaucent 2021-11-25 07:48:20
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Asura.Essylt said: »
Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Odin.Senaki said: »
Wow and FFXIV both feel like this to me.

That being said, we can kinda argue that Job Points, Merit Points, and now Master Levels are a type of linear vertical progression.

I guess my gripe with proper vertical GEAR progression after living it in early FFXIV is this. If you need the gear from Raid A to even do Raid B, why does gear exist at all?

That's not really how it works in 14 though. The raid gear is the pinnacle gear of every patch that has a raid in it, and every other patch introduces gear a half-step down from that, obtainable from less "hardcore" sources as a handicap to help people who can't progress straight through the raid. When new expansions start they raise the item level floor past the pinnacle gear and you start the cycle over again.

Quote:
... If there is no freedom to choose your gear (or participate in endgame content with lesser gear), why does gear exist in the first place, is the question that rattles around in my head. Like, am I crazy for thinking gear shouldn't exist at that point? It should simply be level-ups and the stat increases that comes with it that matter. I contend that gear in games that use linear gear vertical progression models is simply a shiny carrot on a stick.

The gear exists as a check you need to pass, which isn't something you can accomplish with level checks. Anyone can level up. The act of obtaining the next level of gear is meant to prove you're ready to work on the next rung of the gear ladder.
Actually, no. The only function that gear has in XIV (besides cosmetic) is to be a carrot on a stick to drive some players into content. Other than that, it's completely meaningless. If there wasn't a need to provide this incentive to raid, SE could've just granted new raid access based on the number of currency collected or some achievement. Long-term character power progression simply doesn't exist in XIV.

The main function of ilvl in XIV is to show you the level of the gear which is what XI does but XIV does this way more accurately. You can't simply rock up in your ilvl420 gear to E12s and expect to live the AoEs going out. In terms that you would better understand that would be like going into Omen with a full set of Zitah gear. While certainly ilvl can be a carrot on a stick for some players wanting the "best" gear, that's not the main purpose of ilvl.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-25 08:38:00
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Gear on XIV is made to be disposable, like some overalls you get from a locker for work. What works on that, would not work on XI.

XI is a gear collection game, they can't just wipe out half peoples inventory overnight and expect them to put up with it.

The reason they added Ilevel in the first place was because of the hard lock on level 99, they have now found a way to go beyond that with master levels. There is no reason to increase Ilevel anymore at all.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-25 08:44:29
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SimonSes said: »
Personal attacks on person you are arguing with usually means you lack arguments.

Personal attacks/ad hominem is a poor form of conceding. Once those start, the person has instantly lost.

Odin.Foxmulder said: »
Usually, yeah. Here, it's venting frustration with having wasted time arguing with a dullard. I suppose I and others know better in the future.

If someone really and I mean really thinks/thought someone was a dullard, they wouldn't even respond to them to begin with. Most people just use terms synonymous with "stupid" because they lack the decency and composure to have an adult conversation... like an adult. I just don't get this whole thing some people have where they cannot talk to another person without insinuating they're an idiot.
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