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Merc Culture Discussion
By soralin 2019-04-02 23:22:38
it does nothing about the fact that gil now is worth maybe 10% of what it once was. Back in 2007, 10M was a hell of a lot of gil, now it's chump change.
I respectfully disagree.
Gil is pretty close to its same value, maybe worth a little bit less.
Measuring of this metric is actually pretty easy for many jobs, because there's a lot of 1:1 comparisons to 75 era.
Souveran +1 set is pretty close to the same cost as the Koenig set back in the day.
D Ring is still about 20~30 mil
Completing a relic is about 250mil give or take.
Completing a mythic is about 300mil give or take.
These are actually prices that have stayed pretty rock solid most of the time, except for the salvage duping era of course.
Though a single phase of the relic is now a fraction of the cost, that provides an incomplete weapon. The price of the complete weapon is not terribly far from what it was 10 years ago.
Perhaps the main way you could argue gil has lost its value is the prolific usage now of things like gearsweap and friends, players can now sustain WAY more niche gear sets.
Also, with the 4 mog wardrobes one player can sustain many more jobs with ease, which also lends itself to the feeling of 'gil is worth less', since gearing 4 jobs certainly costs a LOT more than gearing 1.
So... perhaps. But its not worth less from an economic perspective, its worth less because one player can simply hold a lot more value on their account at once.
Summarized: Though 1:1 gear costs about the same (remember when SH+1 was like 7m?), one single character can handle like 10x the gear, creating the feeling that gil is worth 10% what it used to be.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 196
By Asura.Inuyushi 2019-04-02 23:30:14
I'm surprised no one has mentioned how crucial trusts are to the merc market. If SE took away trusts, the merc market would still exist but only on high end kills. So many things are merc-able because you have an instant tank/healer combination that are ready to go anytime.
That and gil is so much easier to make thanks to Gain EXP, among other things.
 Phoenix.Hova
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 57
By Phoenix.Hova 2019-04-02 23:39:26
IMO some merc'ing is ok, but the fine line is thin AF.
These days ppl are asking for merc's for token farming, and all the steps to making an aeonic, and all the steps to making an empy.
Some of the bots selling JP's i'm afraid could actually ruin the game.
I'm not sure why people play this game, if they aren't gonna play this game.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33
By Asura.Karumac 2019-04-02 23:43:17
I don't mind merc culture, same as buying your rema currency has always been, paying someone else to put the time in when you don't want to/doesn't make sense for you to do. gives everyone involved something to do.
This right here. I don't know why so many people see buying Alex, for example, from the AH as different from mercing HELMs. They're literally the same thing and both result in a REMA.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-02 23:45:47
Because they pay their own fee and they can do what they want with their money. If they want to overpay for something, it's their choice. It hurts others, but you can adjust I'm sure.
Phoenix.Hova
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 57
By Phoenix.Hova 2019-04-02 23:45:58
ya except SE didn't put T4 NM wins on the AH
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-02 23:47:01
ya except SE didn't put T4 NM wins on the AH
They, really, really, really, should. They want gil sinks? lul, NPC's that sell REMA items/clears, *** every single gil in the game will evaporate instantly.
...and they actually kinda did. You buy the alex. You make the nirvana. you put on the blindfold. and you mash control 1. you bought T4 wins from the AH. 250m buys you 16 Aeonics. No gearswaps, no skill, no effort required. Quit paying 100m for ONE when 250m gets you ALL!
Phoenix.Hova
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 57
By Phoenix.Hova 2019-04-02 23:55:38
My fav thing about the merc'ing, is people shouting for VD Ambu wanting an elite DD, and they get some fool that doesn't know what any of his JA's do, cause he paid for every step of the game, and doesn't know jack ***.
Asura.Byrne
By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-03 00:56:57
it does nothing about the fact that gil now is worth maybe 10% of what it once was. Back in 2007, 10M was a hell of a lot of gil, now it's chump change.
I respectfully disagree.
Gil is pretty close to its same value, maybe worth a little bit less.
Measuring of this metric is actually pretty easy for many jobs, because there's a lot of 1:1 comparisons to 75 era.
Souveran +1 set is pretty close to the same cost as the Koenig set back in the day.
D Ring is still about 20~30 mil
Completing a relic is about 250mil give or take.
Completing a mythic is about 300mil give or take.
These are actually prices that have stayed pretty rock solid most of the time, except for the salvage duping era of course.
Though a single phase of the relic is now a fraction of the cost, that provides an incomplete weapon. The price of the complete weapon is not terribly far from what it was 10 years ago.
Perhaps the main way you could argue gil has lost its value is the prolific usage now of things like gearsweap and friends, players can now sustain WAY more niche gear sets.
Also, with the 4 mog wardrobes one player can sustain many more jobs with ease, which also lends itself to the feeling of 'gil is worth less', since gearing 4 jobs certainly costs a LOT more than gearing 1.
So... perhaps. But its not worth less from an economic perspective, its worth less because one player can simply hold a lot more value on their account at once.
Summarized: Though 1:1 gear costs about the same (remember when SH+1 was like 7m?), one single character can handle like 10x the gear, creating the feeling that gil is worth 10% what it used to be.
That's not really what the point was, the point is it's far easier to get gil now, but it's also worth remembering that before crafting shields (ironically) fixed the issue, things like +1 Abjuration slots could cost as much as a mythic per slot. which was hardly in line with "old purchasing power".
When I bought the +1 Jovian body, head and hands, each of them were over 200M.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1166
By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-03 00:57:53
In terms of culture, I'd argue that FFXI has changed from more of a Socialist, everyone = benefit society with a focus on the betterment of the group; to Capitalistic, free market society with an emphasis on private industry.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1166
By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-03 01:18:05
We can further examine the situation by reviewing each server as it's own Country, with it's own sub-culture. With private industries (Mercs) competing primarily domestically for smaller-scale products (Unity Concord, Omen, Item drops). Then you get larger companies competing internationally for the more luxury goods (Aeonics, master trials, Dyna-D Wave 3).
Unfortunately, Comparative Advantage does indeed fail somewhat as people are often not willing to change servers and end up paying a premium on goods relative to their own server price instead of outsourcing and buying cheaper products abroad. Along with this, only one or two prominent companies tend to operate per server; leading to player-run monopolies.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10
By Asura.Constellation 2019-04-03 21:59:08
Let me give offer this perspective as to why our LS (Soiree) focuses entirely on mercing. The first important idea is that while we are mercing, we are at the same time advancing the gear and skill set of our members. Take this example; Dynamis-D clear - 12 members and 6 buyers. Our take with merc service and drops is going to be around 500M / 12 members = 41Mish per person. Assume also that at least a few people are also leveling necks or weapons. That is a free 120m over the course of a few runs for all members. We do dynamis twice a week, so over the course of a month we are generating around 6B in value (4B from merc and 2B saved on neck and weapon mats) in dynamis alone. We also treat all members equally. Leaders or members who have been a part of the shell for years get the same payout as members on their first day. On a personal level, the only reason I play the game at this point is to spend time with people who I have created friendships with. I could care less about gear or Gil. Mercing gives us a goal to work towards, instead of just doing random events.
The second important idea is that mercing keeps our server population high. This is good for everyone, as a higher population makes for a more robust economy and more options for players of all levels. I don't have anything close to an exact count, but I would imagine that we have added at least 200 DREAM weapons to our server. This allows players who would never be able to normally achieve these goals in a reasonable time frame to spend a few weeks farming Gil and coming away end game ready.
The third important idea is that because we have an incentive to defeat content in the fastest and most efficient way possible, we are constantly advancing strategy that anyone can copy and use for their own purposes. We have never hid any of our strategies and actually enjoy sharing ideas with other people. A good example of this is how much time we spent creating an effective strategy to defeat Schah, when Aeonics were first implemented. We had around 30 failed attempts before our first win with around 10 seconds remaining. Many mid-level linkshells are really only a few weapons and a few strategies away from participating competitively at high level end game.
Bismarck.Nyaarun
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1006
By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-05 09:41:43
Id think its moreso to do with REMA actually being relatively attainable now, while still being way too grindy. Aeonic mercing is really no different than paying for alex/beit/rift/hmp etc.
Id personally prefer it if SE made more REMA less grindy and more just clear content once. Farming 99999999999999999 alex et all isnt fun nor challenging. Just grind intensive. Cheapens the impact of rema for me. Even relics at 75 cap werent really a challenge to get, just artificial limited supply by SE to make them rare (which meant only LS leaders and RMTs had relic weapons)
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 158
By Asura.Splendid 2019-04-05 11:36:52
My LS mercs. We split our payment based on who helped to make it happen. On a good day we can make 5m+ each. But on a bad day of mercing one payment of 4m for one item doesn’t go that far between seven or eight people. And if you take into consideration the real money “exchange rate” being roughly $1 for 1m Gil we are making significantly less than current minimum wage per hour in the United States. Taking that into account maybe we’re the stupid ones...lol. And if the “client” bought the gil they used to pay us then that adds a whole other level to consider.
That said, I view mercing as a service. And paying for an item or win or RP leeching via merc isn’t any different than buying a crafted item off the AH. Just my opinion.
This is a fascinating read. Keep going please with the unique perspectives!
Edit: English is annoying. :3
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-04-05 12:15:30
haven't dug thru the entire thread, but two things always come to mind when I hear discussions on merc'ing:
1- the game's population is older, meaning our real world commitments are more than 14 years ago when we started playing (give or take a few years). Jobs, Marriage, Kids...hell fixing that stuck bathtub drain for the wifey are all going to come first.
SE figured this out by increasing instanced battles that we can control the time of an event vs. world spawns and HNMs on 3-7 day windows, and merc groups have figured it out as well. Your average player just isn't willing to spend their 2-3 hours of gameplay 3-5 days a week spamming Salvage to build 1 mythic over the course of months. If they can "buy" an aeonic after 1 month of casual gain-exp monies, that means their home life won't suffer due to gaming addiction and ignoring the family or getting fired for missing work.
2- All of us, regardless of age, are more impatient. That's just the direction that society has taken us as members of it with instant gratification. Don't wanna wait an entire week for the next episode of your favorite show? Binge watch 3 seasons over a weekend. Tired of saving up money to buy that new TV? Payment plans but take it home that day! Frustrated by all the characters on your server running around in Town gear showing all their shinies that you don't have yet? Find a merc group to do it for ya.
My only question to this mentality in a game is...why are you "playing" it? We all place arguments like this in the framework of our own mindset, and I guess I look at something like building an Empyrean Weapon as still "part of the game" and as such, I am playing while farming Briareus Helms. Others see it as a frustrating waste of time, and just want the result. When in reality many opt to merc those "gathering" tasks, be it ancient currency from old dynamis, drops from NMs in abyssea, or Alexandrite for a mythic as tedious, and not as fun as other things in game with their limited play time, so off they go to their local merc service. Although I must ask- if you're replacing farming currency for a RMEA with only doing gain-exp to then pay someone else to do it for you, aren't you just replacing one tedious task for another? Or are you replacing one tedious task with strange rules (proccing system in abyssea comes to mind) for a tedious task that is truly mindless?
Either way, especially in the world of small servers that the most of us still live in, some merc'ing adds some financial health to those servers for all, not just those getting the paychecks.
...oh, and if you're using a Visa/Mastercard/PayPal to pay for your merc'ing services...good lord get therapy. That's the one type of pay2win that I simply don't get- probably because again I'm placing it in my personal mindset, but that just seems like skipping the game for the sake of shinies you can lord over others while you watch the boat traffic in Mhaura.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-05 12:15:51
In terms of culture, I'd argue that FFXI has changed from more of a Socialist, everyone = benefit society with a focus on the betterment of the group; to Capitalistic, free market society with an emphasis on private industry.
>thinking FFXI's culture at 75 was for the betterment of the group
By fonewear 2019-04-05 12:46:49
What I don't understand is why you would want all REMA weapons...what do you do next sit in town with your thumb up your *** ?
If you were to do all that what is left to do in the game ?
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1144
By Fenrir.Richybear 2019-04-05 12:52:41
What I don't understand is why you would want all REMA weapons...what do you do next sit in town with your thumb up your *** ?
If you were to do all that what is left to do in the game ?
R15 all of them, duhhhh
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-05 12:53:00
This is a really fun game to *** around in. Doesn't take that much attention.
Farming ***while listening to podcasts or watching Netflix is definitely a lot more fun than playing whatever *** AAA game I'm supposed be over the moon about this week. Why not take that money you farm up to buy better gear?
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By fonewear 2019-04-05 12:54:43
I must be in the minority I don't really do events I play mostly for social reasons.
I could care less if I make an aeonic weapon or glow or have "elite" status.
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By soralin 2019-04-05 13:15:38
What I don't understand is why you would want all REMA weapons...what do you do next sit in town with your thumb up your *** ?
If you were to do all that what is left to do in the game ?
Soloing NMs
Ultimate battlefields.
Stuff like that.
Most people will merc hard on their first 'real' job, in order to gain access to an end game shell that does mercing outwards to others, and use this as their entry point to 'normally' gear up jobs 2 through 6 without mercing.
Also each job takes less effort to max than the last, since there's a lot of crossover between jobs and their gear.
So generally that initial merc mentality comes from trying to get 'in' on the real end game stuff.
Ambuscade really digs hard into this, because you can farm points on your pimped out epeo run to spend on your freshly 99'd Geo or Brd, to get them their capes rapidly.
By Nubyaan 2019-04-05 13:26:07
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »...oh, and if you're using a Visa/Mastercard/PayPal to pay for your merc'ing services...good lord get therapy. That's the one type of pay2win that I simply don't get- probably because again I'm placing it in my personal mindset, but that just seems like skipping the game for the sake of shinies you can lord over others while you watch the boat traffic in Mhaura.
This mindset is why I asked earlier in the thread; what the difference is between paying with gil and paying with real money. Your examination on the culture we live in today compared to 14 years ago and how that might encourage someone to merc the tedious stuff was very valid and well thought out. Which is why I don't understand how it's so hard for you to fathom that some choose to use a debit card to pay for said services.
If a person doesn't have the time to farm 50mil in game to merc an Aeonic clear (or however much they cost) but they have the means to blow 50USD on that same service, what's the actual difference? It's also a little bit unfortunate that you think someone that pays with real money should "seek therapy". You somehow managed to make a good point by talking about the current climate of the game and the culture we're playing it in but then follow up with a statement that was completely uninformed by your own exploration.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 13:38:32
Literally zero difference. You can either pay $100 for a year and NOT complete an aeonic.
Or you can just pay the same $100 and actually get your aeonic.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is *** wrong. It likely costs people LESS money in the end to get an aeonic bought for like $75 than paying for years and years of subscription.
Q: "what's the difference between paying $300 for someone to merc and paying $300 for 3 years of subscription?"
A: "If you pay the merc you'll actually get the drop"
If you can't obtain some thing you really want. Unsub right now. Play a game thats worth actually playing for 4 months. Use the sub money to buy the item you want. Absolutely no difference, except you'll spend your time playing a game worth playing for 4 months instead. ....Maybe during that 4 months you realize you don't want to come back to XI and you're better off for it. It's win/win
By eliroo 2019-04-05 13:42:55
Quote: It's also a little bit unfortunate that you think someone that pays with real money should "seek therapy"
I totally agree with what he said though. Anyone who spends real life money to Play FFXI should seek therapy.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Asura.Bayonette 2019-04-05 13:45:08
Back in the 75 era the only thing I remember being merced was Operation Desert Swarm. I think the blm merc group would keep the venomous claw and the player would get the rest, with the crit bonus weapons being the main lure. Been awhile, is that how it went?
Not trying to derail, the OP mentioned 75 mercing and I got nostalgic.
 Asura.Frod
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1199
By Asura.Frod 2019-04-05 13:45:49
There's an awful lot of butthurt in this thread.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 414
By Asura.Reichleiu 2019-04-05 13:54:51
One thing that was only briefly touched on previously, and should be said again.. A lot of people that are paying for mercs of specific items are doing so because they have killed the NM countless times and it has yet to drop.
5m for a body abjuration is worth less than my time to me. So for instance, if i've gone out an killed Duke Vepar 12 times and it hasn't dropped V or C body, I'm probably going to be more inclined to buy the Abjuration instead. I'm 30 years old with a 3 month old child, a career, and things I enjoy doing outside of the game. I don't have time to go 0/30+ on something like this is 2006.
Since I came back in August, i've only paid a merc for two things, and that's because they were extremely cheap and I had just come back. Someone sold me a Skinflayer and V.Body for 1m and 1.5m each. Couldn't pass up on that.
Now.. i've also been on the other side, and I'll be honest –– Merccing is easily the best way to make gil in XI if you have a good group. It's the most time efficient and if people are willing to pay for something you don't need, sell it to them.
Back 5-6 years ago (pre-RoV) we were merccing Delve and HTB drops. Mei'yoshi Haubergeon used to sell for 50m because it was the newest best piece of gear DDs "needed" to have. People were still paying 6-12m for a delve clear. So if you had a good group of friends that could low man all of that content, you'd spam it and get rich. And boy did we spam it..
I look at it like this.. merccing items, as long as you aren't ripping people off, is just a more efficient form of farming.
Merccing content feels a little different, but I understand why some people do it.
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Valefor.Yandaime
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 747
By Valefor.Yandaime 2019-04-05 14:01:05
One thing that was only briefly touched on previously, and should be said again.. A lot of people that are paying for mercs of specific items are doing so because they have killed the NM countless times and it has yet to drop.
5m for a body abjuration is worth less than my time to me. So for instance, if i've gone out an killed Duke Vepar 12 times and it hasn't dropped V or C body, I'm probably going to be more inclined to buy the Abjuration instead. I'm 30 years old with a 3 month old child, a career, and things I enjoy doing outside of the game. I don't have time to go 0/30+ on something like this is 2006.
Since I came back in August, i've only paid a merc for two things, and that's because they were extremely cheap and I had just come back. Someone sold me a Skinflayer and V.Body for 1m and 1.5m each. Couldn't pass up on that.
Now.. i've also been on the other side, and I'll be honest –– Merccing is easily the best way to make gil in XI if you have a good group. It's the most time efficient and if people are willing to pay for something you don't need, sell it to them.
Back 5-6 years ago (pre-RoV) we were merccing Delve and HTB drops. Mei'yoshi Haubergeon used to sell for 50m because it was the newest best piece of gear DDs "needed" to have. People were still paying 6-12m for a delve clear. So if you had a good group of friends that could low man all of that content, you'd spam it and get rich. And boy did we spam it..
I look at it like this.. merccing items, as long as you aren't ripping people off, is just a more efficient form of farming.
Merccing content feels a little different, but I understand why some people do it.
I agree with what he said.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 14:12:07
Quote: It's also a little bit unfortunate that you think someone that pays with real money should "seek therapy"
I totally agree with what he said though. Anyone who spends real life money to Play FFXI should seek therapy.
Paying real life money in FFXI is just about the same as paying RL money for any other freemium game (FFBE, FFRK, PokeMon Go), or any other service that provide superficial temporary enjoyment. I know a lot of people love to prance around acting smug that they can farm billions of gil in hours of real life time, pretending they are better than people who just whip out the CC, but itis effectively the same thing no matter which way you slice it. You are exchanging currency for good/services by cutting out the time factor, in the same way you would any other service. Being that it's a video game makes no difference because I'm sure there are lots of things people spend their money on that others would question.
If a person chooses to spend RL money to get more enjoyment out of a video game, it saves him/her time. Maybe they can use more of that time with their family, or other important things in their life. To such a person, exchanging a few bucks is meaningless if they can actually get enjoyment out of the video game every time they log on. Some people don't like farming crap for literally weeks at a time to get something they can play around with. Other people enjoy the grind nonetheless and wouldn't dare spend a nickel to cut the line. You're paying with your time anyways. So if a person who spends RL money on FFXI should "seek therapy", people who spend inordinate amounts of time farming gil should do the same. Nobody is better or worse off.
By eliroo 2019-04-05 14:29:37
I know you guys are all serious and stuff but everyone pays real life money to play FFXI.
So, to preface, Im interested in a serious discussion regarding the general culture around Mercing and its prevalence now on some servers, especially Asura of course.
To begin, I don't dislike it, I don't think its inherently 'bad' or 'wrong' for the culture to exist.
I'm just interested in discussing the 'why' from a purely objective standpoint. Mostly I just think its a neat phenomena that has occurred and it's just a cool thing that has happened. Culture shifting that is, and I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on it.
To begin, the main facts as I see it.
1. Mercing never used to be this prevalent during the 75 era. You got occasional shouts, but for the most part the only items that ever really got merc'd were Dynamis drops (I recall Rdm hat and Thf gloves being popular merc items from large shells) and stuff like D Ring of course.
2. At some point, through a contextual shift, merc'ing has surged over the years to become the majority of shouts, especially on Asura. Some kind of factors probably combined together to breed this cultural phenomena, and I'm curious about peoples thoughts on it.
So, to begin, here are what I consider the primary influences that created the right mix to breed such a culture.
First off, Teleporting is a million times easier. Warp ring, HP/Book/Etc warps make it incredibly easy to get from Point A to Point B. Before in the 75 era, this was substantially more difficult, and it was unlikely you could run to a specific zone in time to lot a drop before the timer was up.
Second, community upkeep of Wiki info, particularly the strats on Discussion pages, have become almost entirely empty. This is pretty critical, as newer players heavily rely on this info to quickly and easily figure out party comps to put together to take down fights. Remember, not everyone has R15 REMA jobs!
Before I recall days where end game NMs would have entire pages of groups all posting their various party/alliance comps to take down NMs. This just isn't really a thing now for most fights.
Furthermore, many wiki pages for new NMs meta-refer to mechanics in a way that seasoned players may instantly understand, but new players will have to go look up elsewhere. IE "Uses the usual NM Moves of <species>" might be a common thing to see, without any further clarification on what that actually entails. Its expected of the reader to then go to the species page and look up each move on the list.
Whereas for seasoned vets, they will remember which of those moves is the crippling one that needs to be managed. So both these points combined adds a barrier of entry to newer/returning players that didn't exist in the past.
I think this is interesting too, because I'd say now more than ever the gearing barrier of entry is smaller than ever before. Gear has become so incredibly easy to obtain and the gap between "Best in slot" and "Second best in slot" has never been smaller either, especially with the introduction of Ambu weapons.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this topic! I think it's really neat how much culture can exist in something as abstract as an MMO, and its a topic I love to hear people's take on!
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