Death Scythe/Tredecim Scythe/Moliones's Set

anywho back ot the death/tredecim thingy
so on the 13th swing of tredecim, it will force crit?
so if you did a ws on the 13th, is that a crit ws?

No. WS doesn't count.

Nope.

And if you miss, it doesn't proc on next hit either. So no D&D rules of "20 = Automatic Hit/Critical hit" ; ;

Also Guillo doesn't crit (page 1).

guillotine doesn't crit O.O?

No...

so what weaponskills do crit if any? (not using sneak attack_

Not as a weapon skill, again I said this was based on more of a faith thing than actual research. (Some light research, but not enough to be called conclusive)

My personal Guillotine numbers with Vendetta would normally range from 1280-1375 on a 4/4. Occasionally a 4/4 would yield between 1450-1690, this happened with increasing frequency as I changed some of my Black Gear out for new High-Quality Hecatomb, resulting in a DEX increase of around 20-30 when also paired with Adaman Hauberk, I had a friend run some numbers and the numbers were coming up very close to what they'd be if we assumed 1-3 were scoring critical hits on pdif.

The first strike of a weapon skill always seems to be calculated differently than the rest, so it made sense, but it also makes sense that American Sandstone repels Bengal Tigers, since there are none near any AMerican Sandstone Quarries.

I didn't want to suggest by any means to go gear out for crits, I just wanted to show that, as far as I'm concerned, until this happening is explained, the Jury's still out!

Those that say "Chance of critical hit varies with TP.".

Anything that says "Chance of critical varies with TP" (Drakesbane, RR, Vorpal Blade, etc) or "Deals critical damage" (True Strike). The first is a chance to crit, the second is a forced crit (TS is acc varies with TP).

EDIT: Zicdeh: If you give me gear, buffs, merits, and target + debuffs, I'd be happy to put the matter to rest for you. Also need to know around when this occurred so I know whether to use old or new pDIF equation.

Go WS on level 1 rabbits and you'd know if it was a crit. Just use sneak attack to test the max range possible. You can follow up with normal WSs and compare the results. You can probably also calculate your absolute max damage vs those mobs with no crits but I'm not certain. Anyways I am positive unless the WS says it can crit then it can't.

Enter his "after the first hit" defense. Yes you can calculate your maximum per-hit damage.

The only situation with a WS that I've noticed any large differences in damage on is spinning slash. The range can be somewhat huge in the damage it does IE 500-800ish without any form of double attack proc. I'm sure though that mathmatically it isn't a crit but people always like to use that example to justify subduer.

TP: Removing the double attack factor so take note of that.
-------------
Vendetta
[[Pole Strap]](Removed for test)
Bomb Core
Ace's Helm
Justice Torque
Supremacy Earring
[[Brutal Earring]](Removed for test)
Adaman Hauberk
Homam Manopolas
Rajas Ring
Blitz Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Homam Cosciales
Homam Gamberies.

WS
-----------
Vendetta
[[Pole Strap]](Removed for Test)
Bomb Core
HCT cap
Justice Torque*(Yes, I have snow Gorget, don't know why, but this always did better)
Supremacy Earring
[[Brutal Earring]](Removed for Test)
Adaman Hauberk
HCT Mittens +1
Rajas Ring
Flame Ring
Amemet Mantle+1
Warwolf Belt
HCT Subligar
HCT Leggings +1

Buffs: Minuet2x (IV and III) March 2x.(To silence the USE MARCH ONRY ON BIRDS LOL)
Meat Mithkabob
Dia II was never cast during test.
Souleater/Last Resort were never used during test.
DRK/NIN (easier to watch TP than /SAM)
Merits: Scythe 8/8 STR 5/5
Target: Greater Colibri

It happened way after the Cocked up 2hander patch, if that's what you're referring to, I don't remember exact date, 1600 was a 3/4 guillotine when that was in effect!

I tested right after I got Adaman Hauberk and Heca Subligar (Both in the same week) so I'd November 09.


Shut up about cape, I've been waiting for an LS-crafted Cerb+1 to be made for almost a year now... ^^

*Recently Upgraded to Severance(DMG+20,Delay-15,STR+4,ATK+15) and Severance(DMG+23, Add.Eff.:Def.Down) and haven't tested since upgrade.

I'm still in the "Doubt" area, I'm not saying it is a crit, I am just jumping to that "Faith" Thing because, that's the only thing I can think of. I actually want to be Proven wrong, to continue an investigation. I always say

Hearing the Right answer is better than Knowing the wrong answer.

question:
bcause weaponsklls can double attack.
i ws with brutal and abyssal earring...
should i get 2 triumph earrings and 2 vampire earrings (at night)or what...

Abyssal v Triumph might vary but as a general rule WSing in Brutal is preferable for any WS that can DA (ie not magical WS or Asuran Fists, which has the maximum number of hits possible for WS).
Was actually talking about the update that revised cRatio and the pDIF equations, not the 2hander patch. Late 09 is definitely post-patch though. Forgot to ask your race, oh well... Going to assume Hume. Also assuming unmerited Minuets.

72+68 STR
51-2 MND
702 attack

We'll use the level 81 Greater Colibri, which have 322 defense and 67 VIT.

Ratio = 702/322 = 2.18
cRatio = 2.18-0.05*6 = 1.88
pDIF MAX = 1.88*1.2 = 2.256
There's a final randomizing term where pDIF is multiplied by 1.0~1.05. Maxing that value, we reach 2.369 for our final pDIF value.

D = 97
fSTR = (72+68-67)/4=18. fSTR cap for Vendetta is 18, so you're right at cap.
WSC = floor(floor(140*0.25+49*0.25)*0.83) = floor(47*0.83) = 39

fTP on first hit is 0.875, all additional hits have an effective fTP of 1.0

base damage = 97+18+39 = 154

154*2.369*0.875+154*2.369*3=1410 damage

This is consistent with your normal damage, but not your spikes. A DA accounts for the damage spike pretty comfortably (maxes at 1774 with one DA). Reworking the numbers with 3 crits (pDIF + 1.0 immediately prior to the 0-5% randomization) yields a maximum of 1896, which is far above your reported maximum and thus clearly not what was occurring here... 2 crits yields 1734 maximum, which is more consistent with your findings.

So one of two things occurred here: either Guillo crit twice or you DA'd for whatever reason. I'm not going to offer commentary on what I think actually happened, I'm just saying that one of those two things occurred and this potentially needs further investigation.

I would be interested to see the raw data, as what you are seeing flys in the face of a well established concept and I am not sure why you would be the only one with numbers to support guillotine (or other WS) being able to crit.

I will say though, the equations for WS damage have never been truely nailed down since the whole 2hander update. A lot of work went into it a few months ago and the equations Nightfyre used are the results, but they still won't match every 'real life' situation.

Agreed, but they're certainly not so far off as this. I'm genuinely curious as to what's going on here.

@ Zicdeh since quote isn't working for some reason I'm going to just copy/paste

Quetzalcoatl.Volkom said:
for some reason i think weaponskills proc'ing a double attack is a lie

Odin.Zicdeh said:
It's not, I've had a seven-hit guillotine before (Double Attack Proc'd Three times) Resulting in an instant kill on Colibri from 92%. Total DMG 3001.

I still also firmly believe on any Multi Hit, a weapon skill can Critical after the first, processed on each individual strike (As a normal hit). I don't even want to debate this, because really, I can't. I can't prove it, I can't show any data, nothin. It's almost a faith thing, thought I don't pursue specific Dex-increasing ws sets for like, an STR modded weapon skill or anything.

It'll be easier to validate when Innin is subbable in about a month.



Double attack cannot proc more than twice on a weapon skill. (the first two hits) So there is no way you hit a 7-hit Guillotine. Just a general FYI for you.

No they certainly aren't out by 10-12%, which is the error we are seeing here. But without a parse, all we have is some one saying 'I did X damage' and no offence to Zicdeh but most people who post that sort of thing are exaggerating by at least a few percent.

Its like the argument of how many DAs can you do, some people say 2 is the maximum, others claim to have seen 3+. But the problem is proving it; at capped accuracy and 7% DA, there is less than 0.1% chance of landing 7 hits.

Most I've seen is 2 on War with DA merits, brutal and pole. :/

ok guys ima toss this out there since your figuring out strange high damage ws's. about a year ago "it didnt happen before or sense" i was doing an nysle isle 100 run, fighting cerb with brd 2hr march/min, 300tp, zerk, agg, warcry,
war charge, hit raging rush macro bam! cerbs HP bar dropped from the 4k+ raging rush i layed down... i say 4k plus cause i remeber it was higher couldnt tell u if it was 4.1 or 4.6..

this was before i had comp and was into parsing stuff, that ws was what actually made me want to parse and why i probly still play this damn game.. it was sweet but /sigh ive never been able to do it again or seen anyone else do it. its rough to even approach a 3k ws. my war was fully merit'd then but it didnt have fort torque, and a few other nice things ive gotten in the past year.

so if yall can explain this little happenstance that would be great, cause id really <3 to be able to to it more lmao.

did you have a drg with angon?

The highest ws i've ever done was a 3.4k Drakesbane on bee's in bhaflau remnants. These take insane extra damage, so if you were able to hit 4.6k on a lvl 100 nyzul cerb.. this is probably what happened..

You double attacked your double attack which double attacked on the 1st and 2nd double attack which consequently broke the entire interwebz... and made Chuck norris turn gay.

I call BS... sorry.

Can do 3.5k on Greater Colibri so if bees take "insane extra damage" that doesn't seem too impressive. I also call BS until I see pics. Camera phones exist for a reason >_>

I did 3.5k on this chick I met at the grocery store last week, it was pretty sweet, my friends were in the next room and were all like "OMG WTF" I'm a dumb ***old school drk, and though it will always be my favorite class I don't get to play it often. Anyway, I never bought a Tred and I'm not high enough rank for Perdu, I use Death+1 which was unquestionably the best scythe back in 05 when I quit the game for several years. How does Death+1 compare to the newer scythes. Also, I don't understand what pDIF and fSTR mean, is there a thread that explains these values and gives the formula to use for damage calculation?

@Bartholomew

Store TP must have pushed it to look like a 7hit then, Normal on Perdu was 17tp, this hit resulted in 20. Hanging fractions ftl?

@Argettio

Absolutely no offense taken, with everyone's e-penises flopping around, jockeying for the best position to slap someone in the face, it's reasonable to expect that. I'm not trying to come off as "O, i soo koo look my dmgz lol" just wanting to know wtf is going on.

As for being the only one who "Sees" this kind of effect, maybe I was the only one with a mind open enough to look/consider it. Wouldn't be the first time in History conventional wisdom was utterly wrong, though I'm not claiming that is true in this case.

@Nightfyre
D'oh, I'm Loldhalmel, Base STR80 for that test (DRK/NIN)

I assure you this is not some kind of pioneering viewpoint. Elvaan bumps your base STR up to 77, your MND to 56, and your attack to 705. fSTR and base damage don't change.

WSC = floor(floor(145*0.25+54*0.25)*0.83) = floor(49*0.83) = 40

ratio = 705/322 = 2.189
cRatio = 2.189 - 0.3 = 1.889
pDIF MAX = 1.889*1.2 = 2.267 * 1.05 = 2.38

155*2.38=368
155*2.38*.875=322

Expected max: 1426