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On Healing Hands - A Comprehensive WHM Guide (v3)
 Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2902
By Ragnarok.Martel 2022-09-14 19:34:25
I use the hands for Banishga II when I need to AoE the def effect onto a pull of undead in Sheol, etc. Should still be just enough to cap in one piece of gear too. I think last time I did the math, it seemed to me that around +42% potency was required to cap Banishga II. It's possible I did the math wrong, it's been a while since I did it.
My Lua only has the Fanatic Gloves & Jokushu Chain which is 35% so I'd still be missing 7% according to that math. Not sure where I was getting the last 7% or if I was just settling due to inv space issues.
Either way, Fanatic Gloves definitely gets you most of the way there. Below is a bit of data from when I was last testing Banish shenanigans.
A bit of context. Corse type mobs have 25% MDT. And the question came up as to whether or not banish affects this.(It does). So I tested that using enfire on my RDM, while casting the banish spells on my WHM alt.
But, anyway. This data can also be useful for looking at when the SDB reduction is capped. Code +------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Spell | Banish+ | Mob | En-Fire |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| None | 0 | Eschan Corse | 750 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish II | 25 | Eschan Corse | 988 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish II | 30 | Eschan Corse | 1000 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish II | 60 | Eschan Corse | 1000 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish III | 0 | Eschan Corse | 976 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish III | 5 | Eschan Corse | 988 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
| Banish III | 10 | Eschan Corse | 1000 |
+------------+---------+--------------+---------+
My enspell dmg was exactly 1k unresisted and with no MDT. Nice number. With the corse's 25% MDT, we saw 750 dmg.
So, with Banish II cast using Banish+30, we saw 1,000 dmg. This is the full un-resisted damage of the en-effect. So we must be capped. Completely eliminating the Corse's MDT. So the gear bonuses to banish are additive with the base.
And just for today's purposes, I added a new sample while wearing Banish +60. As shown in the sample, there were no further gains. As the effect was already capped.
So we can cap a banish II in just +30, making only one piece of banish+ needed unless you start using banish I for some reason.
I prefer the relic+3 hands for the higher macc/skill/mnd, even though I still carry Fanatic's, as the SDB effect can be resisted, so on higher level targets you need some hefty macc. But I can understand the need to be inventory efficient.
 Asura.ChiaiaVIP
Server: Asura
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Posts: 1652
By Asura.Chiaia 2022-09-14 21:52:29
Don't forget about NM nurf though. Iirc works out to something like circle effect nurf.
[+]
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2022-09-15 04:13:52
Don't forget about NM nurf though. Iirc works out to something like circle effect nurf. Well ***. I was hoping this wasn't a thing, but after popping Muut and messing around there's definitely something.
Was.. kinda really annoying to try to log test samples while it kept spam popping adds on my though. May need to find a different corse NM. It also had some weird damage taken thing going on whenever I killed all adds and it blue proc'd, so that was screwing with things too.
Anyway, I didn't record things very well, but I can say that A +30 Banish II was not capping on NM, but the penalty was something that can be overcome with more gear, as a +60 did cap.
Oh, and this little low level ***out right resisted the effect entirely, multiple times... Does not bode well for my land rate on higher stuff.
May work on this more later.
Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1097
By Phoenix.Iocus 2022-09-15 11:06:24
The reason for all that gear existing at least makes sense now. NMs.
Thank you very much for the info.
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2902
By Ragnarok.Martel 2022-09-15 20:13:45
Hmm, well. This is.. weird. Not at all how I expected this to work.
I went and tested Banish on Belphegor. Had to switch to Enthunder cause he resists the ***outta fire, but once I was using Enthunder I was getting the same 750 dmg. So still 25% MDT.
Code +------------+---------+-----------+------------+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Spell | Banish+ | Mob | En-Thunder | SDB- | NM penalty | New SDB- | Resist | SDB multi | New Resist | dmg multi | dmg |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| None | 0 | Belphegor | 750 | | 0% | -30% | | 25% | 100% | 25.00% | 75.00% | 750 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 0 | Belphegor | 851 | | 70% | -30% | 40% | 25% | 60% | 15.00% | 85.00% | 850 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 25 | Belphegor | 914 | | 95% | -30% | 65% | 25% | 35% | 8.75% | 91.25% | 912.5 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 30 | Belphegor | 925 | | 100% | -30% | 70% | 25% | 30% | 7.50% | 92.50% | 925 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 35 | Belphegor | 937 | | 105% | -30% | 75% | 25% | 25% | 6.25% | 93.75% | 937.5 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 40 | Belphegor | 953 | | 110% | -30% | 80% | 25% | 20% | 5.00% | 95.00% | 950 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 55 | Belphegor | 988 | | 125% | -30% | 95% | 25% | 5% | 1.25% | 98.75% | 987.5 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish II | 60 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 130% | -30% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 0 | Belphegor | 953 | | 90% | -10% | 80% | 25% | 20% | 5.00% | 95.00% | 950 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 5 | Belphegor | 964 | | 95% | -10% | 85% | 25% | 15% | 3.75% | 96.25% | 962.5 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 10 | Belphegor | 976 | | 100% | -10% | 90% | 25% | 10% | 2.50% | 97.50% | 975 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 15 | Belphegor | 988 | | 105% | -10% | 95% | 25% | 5% | 1.25% | 98.75% | 987.5 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 20 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 110% | -10% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 25 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 115% | -10% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 30 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 120% | -10% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 35 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 125% | -10% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+
| Banish III | 40 | Belphegor | 1000 | | 130% | -10% | 100% | 25% | 0% | 0.00% | 100.00% | 1000 |
+------------+---------+-----------+--------+---+------+------------+----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+-------+ My calculations for the final damage are imperfect, but like hell I'm figuring out the x/256 values for ***to perfect things.
I tested Banish II first, and found there to be a -30 penalty to the Banish value. This didn't seem to be any clear percent reduction of the original SDB- value. In fact it was weirdly the same value needed to cap with gear, exactly doubling the gear requirement.
Tested Banish III and rather than -30, I was getting -10.. So once again it exactly doubled the gear requirement to cap. I need to go back at some point and see what it does to banish I... Currently the NM penalty looks like penalty=100-SBD reduction. So it just doubles your gear requirement to cap for each tier. This may be impossible for Banish I to overcome if it works the same way there.
TLDR: The SDB reduction effect of Banish on Undead is nerfed vs NMs. But we can still cap the effect with more Banish+ gear. Banish II needs banish+60 to cap on NMs, and Banish III needs +20.
For banish III, nothing really changed. A single piece is still more than enough to cap. For Banish II it's now 3 pieces minimum, and requires Ipoca Beret to cap at all(Can hit +55 without the Beret, requiring literally every other non slot-overlapping piece of banish+gear there is. 5 slots. And that's still not capped.)
Also keep in mind that I only tested this on two NMs, and only actually recorded the results from one NM. It's entirely possible that these nerfs could vary elsewhere.
I would also note that even with macc food, and stacking massive macc on every slot, the SDB effect was getting resisted a lot. I had to repeat various tests multiple times when I saw no damage change after Banish. Even on a trash NM like Belphegor... I kinda have to wonder if anyone casting various banish spells from /whm without native divine skill is ever landing this...
Hmmm, need to update some wiki pages... May be a bit before I'm up for that.
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2022-09-15 20:55:03
Well this is interesting and disappointing. Wasn't aware there was an NM nerf as well as a MAcc check. Thanks for checking!
Cerberus.Dekar
Server: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Dekar 2022-09-15 21:17:55
I wonder how much Threnody II from a BRD or Frazzle from RDM will help the land rate.
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2022-09-15 21:30:34
I wonder how much Threnody II from a BRD or Frazzle from RDM will help the land rate. Probably a lot. I couldn't land Frazzle on Belphegor, or this would probably have been a lot easier to land.
Asura.Chiaia
VIP
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By Asura.Chiaia 2022-09-15 22:22:52
Well this is interesting and disappointing. Wasn't aware there was an NM nerf as well as a MAcc check. Thanks for checking! Sorry, I've known about it for years didn't realize it wasn't on the wiki already.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 4189
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2022-09-16 07:34:53
Perhaps it's like resist status effect and is just a flat % chance to outright resist the effect regardless of macc because it's a separate term?
Necro Bump Detected!
[41 days between previous and next post]
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 1388
By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-27 10:42:33
Finally got around to updating my dual Raetic Rod +1 Cure set with Empyrean +3. Didn't change much, but allowed me to add an extra +4 Conserve MP.
ItemSet 377863
+81% Cure potency
+30% Cure potency II
+100 Cure+
-51 Enmity(with merits)
-80% Casting time(8% from gifts)
+50 Conserve MP
Alaunus' Cape: +10% FC
Vanya Hood: Path D
Still a lot of bloat on Cure Potency, but I can't reduce it without losing the other stats too, WHM just gets access to too much Cure Potency nowadays.
EDIT: Curaga set tweaked now to.
ItemSet 377864
81% Cure potency
+30% Cure potency II
+100 Cure+
-59 Enmity(with merits)
-82% Casting time(8% from gifts)
+61 Conserve MP
(Alaunus' Cape: +10% FC)
Vanya Hood Path C
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-27 12:35:55
Finished tweaking Idle set with Empyrean +3 for DW back line, as well. Ironically, I use the same pieces in Idle as I use for my Cure set. Asclepius uses the C Path with Damage Taken -15%.
ItemSet 377865
-52% PDT
-38% MDT(before Shell V)
+10 Regen/tick
+11 Refresh/tick
Fenrir.Aladeus
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 347
By Fenrir.Aladeus 2022-10-27 17:53:42
how do you not run out of mp with raetic rod x2? i was having issues with just 1 on when i tried it out.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-27 18:01:22
I mostly rely in Cure 1/2 unless I need a big cure. My Cure 2 hits non-tanks for 554 HP. I was in the melee PT in Dyna windy a couple nights ago didn’t even need a refresher. Maybe 2-3 time the whole run I dipped below 800 MP. But I was DW, so I just swapped to my actual melee set and used one Mystic Boon and I was capped again. Mystic Boon is a straight damage > MP conversion so it doesn’t take much to cap MP with it. If I have a refresher I don’t even need to bother with Mystic Boon at all. My MP stays capped pretty much. I love having to +1 rods. 80% cure pot is awesome. It gets even better if I’m curing a tank that uses 30% cure pot received.
[+]
By SimonSes 2022-10-28 04:13:44
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: » But I was DW, so I just swapped to my actual melee set and used one Mystic Boon and I was capped again. Mystic Boon is a straight damage > MP conversion so it doesn’t take much to cap MP with it.
Finally a WHM who knows this, instead of crying about MP..
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 10:08:23
So, ever since I got a Yagrush, I've been kind of lazy gearing erase and -na spells. Since with just Yagrush 119 and Cleric's Torque +2 you're at 80% FC and -60 Enmity. So I just kind of used a version of my Cursna set with the JSE Torque swapped in.
I finally decided to go the extra mile with the Erase set and put SOMETHING useable in all the other slots. So I opted for OQS and Conserve MP.
To start, here's my Cursna set since I swapped over to DW backline mode.
ItemSet 377866
600+ Healing Magic
+216 Cursna
+82% Fast Cast
-51 Enmity,
Vanya Path B
Fanatic- +5% Fast Cast, +9 Healing Magic)
OQS +5%
And here's my set for normal -na spells/Erase trying to fill in all the free slots.
ItemSet 377879
500 Healing Magic
88% Fast Cast
11% OQS
-81 Enmity
74 Conserve MP
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 1665
By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2022-10-28 10:57:17
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »0 Enmity. So I just kind of used a version of my Cursna set with the JSE Torque swapped in.
I finally decided to go the extra mile with the Erase set and put SOMETHING useable in all the other slots. So I opted for OQS and Conserve MP.
A couple things to note. I had a conversation with martel about the menalaus ring recently and divine benison does not "cap fast cast" when using menalaus ring. you can overcap fast cast to compensate for the -10% on the ring, but divine benison doesn't do it.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 11:06:10
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »0 Enmity. So I just kind of used a version of my Cursna set with the JSE Torque swapped in.
I finally decided to go the extra mile with the Erase set and put SOMETHING useable in all the other slots. So I opted for OQS and Conserve MP.
A couple things to note. I had a conversation with martel about the menalaus ring recently and divine benison does not "cap fast cast" when using menalaus ring. you can overcap fast cast to compensate for the -10% on the ring, but divine benison doesn't do it.
I know The Menelaus' Ring has -10% FC, I have a little extra FC in the Cursna set to compensate for that. Technically I'm at 82% FC in this set.
 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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Posts: 1079
By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2022-10-28 16:18:00
So, I'm mildly curious - why a backline WHM with /NIN? Would like to hear the rationale of using that over /SCH or /RDM.
[edit] Just for context, my last bout of endgame in XI was when Delve was the end game and I know a lot has changed since then.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 17:20:30
Because of the clubs in my cure set. They allow me to maximize my Cure power for more E-peen. Cure +50 x2 and as far as I know using two of those clubs is the only realistic way for WHM to hit the 30% Cure II cap.
That’s how it started, at least.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 1388
By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 17:20:32
Because of the clubs in my cure set. They allow me to maximize my Cure power for more E-peen. Cure +50 x2 and as far as I know using two of those clubs is the only realistic way for WHM to hit the 30% Cure II cap.
That’s how it started, at least.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 17:39:19
Since I swapped to a DW build though, I’ve come across few extra niceties. Like Yagrush/Gambateinn is a neat combo for some situations where multiple Dooms happen. And I have become a lot more self-sufficient with MP since, as I posted earlier I can quick swap to my melee set any time for a quick Mystic Boon, if needed.
I honestly don’t miss /sch all that much really.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2022-10-28 17:51:39
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »Cure +50 x2 and as far as I know using two of those clubs is the only realistic way for WHM to hit the 30% Cure II cap.
I mean, technically you can cap Cure II without a second Raetic, but you lose the empy body cureskin. For example:
Raetic (10)
Glorious Earring (2)
Kaykaus head/feet (4)
AF hands (4)
Janniston (6)
AF body or Kaykaus (6)
That's actually 32%.
I've been following this thread with some interest, trying to think about how important Accession, Aurorastorm, Light Arts, Celerity, & Sublimation are compared to the benefits of being able to use 2 clubs.
My opinion: MP is such a minor problem, the amount you save by using Light Arts, Aurorastorm, or a second Raetic rod to use lower-tier cures is completely irrelevant. It's impossible to run out of MP on a WHM unless the mobs are draining your MP or you're making REALLY bad decisions about who to cure or which spells to use. I think it's actually irrelevant either way. TBH, using whm/nin (or /dnc) probably solves more problems than it creates, but it's pretty much a moot point either way imho. Reaction times are more your problem than fast cast, cursna removal rate, conserve mp, or cure potency.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-28 18:15:33
Honestly, it’s true. You can play either sub effectively. But I’ll have a habit with this game with trying to think outside the box. So when I got the club(s) crafted and got lucky and got two. I didn’t hesitate to find a way to try out this build. I’m having a lot of fun theory-crafting this. And honestly, I’ve noticed having access to an off-hand weapon gives you a lot more versatility with stat-building than just with a shield.
By Lili 2022-10-29 09:32:05
The main thing you give up by not being /sch is the utility that stratagems provide, especially Accession, especially now that Master levels gave us a 3rd stratagem:
- accession sneak/invis, can save a ton of time in some content
- accession regen4, not as powerful as sch regen ofc but comes in clutch a lot
- dark arts > addendum black > manifestation > sleep, poor man horde lullaby for emergencies - a bit slow to come out but a lifesaver in some situations. Comes out a bit slow, but precede with a self Cure 6 for the stoneskin and nothing can kill you while you cast
- penury/celerity arise for post-wipe recovery when weakness wrecks your mp
- sublimation for self-wake up (tho less important now that base prime weapons exist and you can swap them in when slept)
- probably more that I'm not coming up with right now
Of course, all of the above depends on your playstyle, who you play with, if you multibox or not, what content you do, etc etc, but the point is that subjobs for whm are no longer about MP management and a lot more about utility nowadays instead. Even /rdm is still viable if you want to be able to spam Dispel, for example (Dispelga is a bit too expensive to spam)
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 1388
By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-29 13:50:11
Anyone know which is more potent for Stoneskin, nodens gorget or stone gorget?
I have both, but not sure which is stronger.
By Vaerix 2022-10-29 13:53:07
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »Anyone know which is more potent for Stoneskin, nodens gorget or stone gorget?
I have both, but not sure which is stronger.
AFAIK they're both 30, I keep stone gorget because of AJ, it's nice for rune before long pulls.
[+]
Ragnarok.Ghishlain
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1079
By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2022-10-29 14:18:49
The main thing you give up by not being /sch is the utility that stratagems provide, especially Accession, especially now that Master levels gave us a 3rd stratagem:
- accession sneak/invis, can save a ton of time in some content
- accession regen4, not as powerful as sch regen ofc but comes in clutch a lot
- dark arts > addendum black > manifestation > sleep, poor man horde lullaby for emergencies - a bit slow to come out but a lifesaver in some situations. Comes out a bit slow, but precede with a self Cure 6 for the stoneskin and nothing can kill you while you cast
- penury/celerity arise for post-wipe recovery when weakness wrecks your mp
- sublimation for self-wake up (tho less important now that base prime weapons exist and you can swap them in when slept)
- probably more that I'm not coming up with right now
Of course, all of the above depends on your playstyle, who you play with, if you multibox or not, what content you do, etc etc, but the point is that subjobs for whm are no longer about MP management and a lot more about utility nowadays instead. Even /rdm is still viable if you want to be able to spam Dispel, for example (Dispelga is a bit too expensive to spam)
Yeah, I agree with the assessment that subjob selection is now less about MP management and more about the utility those jobs bring and do agree with what those sub jobs bring to the table. One of my personal favorites is Ascension + Cure IV just for great MP-free AoE cure because of the high eHP for both the raw Cure IV and the Cureskin they provide to the party. Also, I like having Storms up to negate the RNG Cure reduction in content that has permanent dark weather.
Back to what I poked at before, I respect the idea of /NIN but I personally feel it works better as a front line WHM who is still doing their responsibilities while adding some white damage / skillchain openers on the side, assuming the content / individual fight allows for it. It's just not my personal cup of tea to run /NIN with a purely backline intent as I do not think the ability to wield two different clubs is better than what /SCH brings to the table as a backline WHM. With that being said, I've always appreciated doing things in non-traditional manners and respect the people who find success in doing that like what Wakmidget is doing, hence why I asked too as I was curious how they liked it.
By trinironnie 2022-10-29 18:52:39
Anyone got some updated enhancing magic sets?
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 1388
By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2022-10-29 19:25:40
The ones for my WHM ARE updated in my item sets. They are updated for DW, but you can change a few things up for /sch or whatever. It should give you and idea what’s needed, at least.
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