Looking To See What Role Is A RDM Now?

This just makes me sad. I have been away for some time now...but i kinda miss those red mages. The lack of refresh in the party, nuking when then should be healing, mob stealing with their fast cast stun....
man good times. I'm not even trolling to be honest. I totally miss acting like i was afk when after events and not d2'ing them because they were all required /whm for most things xD

stupid game...ruined all my fun =[

Quoted for truth. Ignore the tear stains.

I'd much rather bring my whm or sch alt to do low man stuff than bring my rdm and that is exactly why my pimp hat has been on the shelf for so long.

Pretty much this. Tier II enfeebles are sh!t, the potency difference between them and Tier I are in the single digits. The only exception is Dia III which provides a 5.8% boost to your ratio.

Refresh II is nice but both SCH and WHM get far better MP management tools and ultimately have much better endurance. Extended duration buffs is nice except SCH has those too. Fundamentally SCH/RDM does everything a RDM/SCH would do only much better. There is never a reason to take a RDM over a WHM or SCH for low man support roles. The only reason you'd ever see a RDM inside Salvage is if that person was a good friend of the other members and had no other job, or if it's a single player multi-boxing and that's his only support character.

Can't really stress this enough, currently RDM is suffering from SE buffing the sh!t out of every other job. Things that could alter this are deliberately kept way from RDM (gear selection and useful JA/JT options) even though it would make sense to put them there. Occult Acumen is a prime example of this though there are many others.

The only thing wrong here is that RDM is godly in salvage 2, the ability to keep up cures, hastes, Phalanx, and debuffs with ONLY spellcasting puts it miles ahead of naked whm or sch without ja's.

No, just no. I can accept differences of opinion but blatantly lying isn't going to go very far.

A naked RDM without JA's is the exact same as a naked WHM / SCH without JA's and only gets worse as unlocks are acquired. The only thing unique is Refresh II but that's only 3 more MP/tick then the SCH would be getting. Thing is you'll have JA (healer should always get sub first) by the 2nd floor in every zone, most runs will have it on the 1st floor. Everyone else will have subs by the 2nd floor. The only two critical unlocks that can take awhile to get in some zones are 2nd Magic and 3rd Weapon, these are non-issues if your going as a three man group (2 melee + 1 healer).

Seriously, there is absolutely nothing RDM brings to the table that SCH doesn't do better. The real choice is between SCH and WHM, and that's highly dependent on group setup and zone though neither is overwhelmingly stronger then the other. If you are going RDM to your Salvage II runs instead of WHM or SCH then your doing it wrong. Or are you one of those who skips things because "there's no time"?

I love my perp'd phal+Regen5's. Except from occ crazy pulls and bosses, curing is never ever needed.

Have you actually done salvage? since when did whm or sch get any form of refresh without JA's or Subjob... and since when could sch cast phalanx or any relevant debuffs without JA? We generally run with either whm and sch or rdm and sch. The proof is in the pudding, not blantant disregard for a job.

rdm's main function is soloing volger skillets

I'm not jumping in on the debate about "SCH VS RDM" thing here, but unlocking SJ/MA/JA for mages is doable in all zones on first floor except on a few occassions - pending on your first lamp. And there is never an issue with mp should I have to pass first JA to dd till my SCH gets JA unlocked for example.

Your setup does matter of course, but the "no SJ/JA/" argument for mages is overrated from my experience. My mage mule isn't staying w/o JA for long.

Running with as few as possible, seem to work towards this approach better. I've been running with 2 characters only (dual-box) lately.

Coming from an absolute scholar fanboy, rdm is hands down the strongest starting mage. That means for the first 10 or so minutes of salvage rdm has the advantage as it can phalanx/refresh/cure/haste/debuff most efficiently without gear. Once subjobs, JAs, and gear are unlocked rdm falls to 3rd in terms of its strength as a healer. Since we assume that the goal of salvage is to do the later floors where rdm has lost its advantage, sch or whm are probably the "better" healers for salvage.

That said, Salvage is easily winnable with a rdm solo healer in the same way it is easily winnable with a whm or sch solo healer in a relatively similar time (the time you lose giving the nonrdm healer starting unlocks is made up on the later floors by having the more ideal healer). The only real difference is that the rdm will have an easier time healing at the start, and the whm or sch will have it easier on the boss. Because all 3 function, it is ridiculous to say that salvage healer isn't a roll rdm can play.

QFT

I know players pri unlocks diff pending on their setups etc, but in my case, my SCH will have atleast SJ right off the bat, and usually JA too. So RDM brings very little to the table as a starter mage for my runs.

And for the record, I'm not debating whether RDM can fulfill it's role in salvage or not because it can function fine there.

But having RDM on your runs just because it functions best for 10 mins seems like a poor choice to me to justify bringing it in the first place.

My WHM and SCH can do that too, but that doesn't make a good argument

There is no RDM vs SCH debate, SCH wins hands down. There is absolutely nothing RDM can do that SCH can't. RDM doesn't get aoe buffs without SJ and JA same with SCH. The only possible argument is for a 6mp/tick refresh II vs a 3mp/tick refresh I at the very start when your naked, and that lasts a very short time.

Players are guaranteed the following unlocks at the start
2 x weapons (go to your DDs)
1 x JA (better go to your DD)
1 x SJ (usually best on your mage)

Everything after that is uncertain (random from a list) and nobody should be planning runs around it.

The real discussion is between WHM vs SCH. WHM gets -na's and erase at the very start before a 2nd JA is available, this could be extremely important depending on the zone. SCH requires JA to get -na's and taking it from your DD is plain stupid. The DD will do more with WS / Berserk / LR / ect early on then naked mages will. There might be a 2nd JA unlock and there is an argument to give it to the mage over the 2nd DD, but the first JA should always go to someone with a high powered WS.

So really at the start we have

RDM/SCH (no LA / DA / convert or -na)
SCH/RDM (no LA / DA / sublimation or -na)
WHM/SCH (no AS / LA / DA or sublimation)
WHM/RDM (no convert / AS) (must mention this cause I still see some healers are more comfortable as /RDM)

Out of all those the RDM fairs the absolute worst. Can a group win with a RDM healer? Yes if the other players are good enough, time might become an issue in some zones but shouldn't be a problem.

Sorry guys, SCH absolutely destroys RDM and everything RDM does for support. This isn't an accident, SE designed SCH to do this on purpose, SCH is now what RDM was at 75 and RDM is now virtually useless.

I have done a stupid amount of salvage II as I lead a small 3~4 man team (occasionally we have a tag along). My definition of a "win" is all six NM's killed plus both mega boss's, I don't believe in skipping sh!t as it defeats the entire purpose of doing that zone. Of the four zones only two can get tight on time, SSR and Zhayolm. Bhaflau is stupid easy, we farm all six NMs, farm the the gears on 3rd floor (both sides) and kill both cerbs, usually without ever seeing the 10m warning. Arrapago used to be annoying until I started going DRK for it, now it's a complete joke. Khim (both) is weak with Arcane Circle and Arcane Crest on while spamming resolution. SSR can be a PITA due to it having two THF nm's with ridiculously high evasion, and the mega boss being cheesy with necropurge + tier V spam. We've never lost but have had a few close calls that I'm not comfortable with. Zhayolm is easy until you get to the megaboss. Hydra can be cake or a nightmare depending on if he decides to spam Pyric Bulwark. This is the one and only zone we've ever had to use embrava on the HQ megaboss. In either case he hits stupidly hard even with a -DT set on.

This is wrong because rdm wouldn't take the starter sub. It has dia 3, haste, slow/para/addle, phalanx 2 all without needing a sub.

sch/rdm (no LA / accession / sublimation or -na) to rdm + main DD sub whatever. Rdm clearly wins.

So your saying all the zones are so easy the only thing you "might" need embrava for is 1 boss, and yet rdm is dismally behind scholar offensively? rdm and sch cast the same offensive buffs and rdm actually has better debuffs. Really the primary difference between them in salvage is how much the healer has to focus; time taken to clear the zone should be almost unaffected.

Rdm fell off when abysea came out. but pre abysea rdm was most wanted healer, and best solo job. Hopefully with new SoA coming it will bring some life back for Rdm besides being a CS stun. Would love to get back into RDM like the old days.

They really need to make bringing a RDM for enfeebs worth it in Aoulin.
If enmity really gets fixed, mobs hit hard enough to warrant a proper tank AND debuffs, there might be hope.
Putting a RDM in a BLM party would'nt be stupid in such a case? Can haste all the blms for a potential stunorder and can keep them refreshed, on top of doing solid debuffs and help with cures?
Alot of ifs in that though.. But a boy can hope, eh?

only way to repair this job is give them something that doesnt exist or start changing the way some spells work, to where their superior enhancing magic actually contributes to something. Maybe hastega, haste II, group III merits w/ slow III ect ect. you can't "fix" this job w/ what exist in the game anymore. blms and sch destroy what nukes rdm can do. and whm is an OP curer

This topic starting to run in circles now.

The last 3 posters (us) each said either mage can work fine in salvage by reading the posts.

But to me it boils down to which mage that offer the most the entire run.

Savel saying RDM's role can be replaced by WHM or SCH entirely, while Sawtelle argumenting about RDM's immediate usefulness at start of runs.

I'm just gonna leave it at that because, factors like amount of players in group/zone/job setups affects the outcome which leaves subjective opinions.

edit. friggin ninja-posters

Only problem with this part is that most BLM's can already do this themselves.

Could have them sub SCH for dark arts, was what I were thinking.
Just to put as much use into the RDM as possible :P

I'm mainly just trying to say that salvage is an event where rdm "can" be used because I know people that like rdm enjoy playing the job. I said in my first post I considered scholar the better healer, I just think the difference between the best and worst healers in salvage is too small to matter in comparison to player preference.

Can also have 2-3 SCHs doing a faster stun rotation, and able to nuke tier 5s.

Ofc, I was just trying to find a situation where RDM actually could be used.
That was assuming:
1.) The mob is hard enough to warrant a proper tank and proper debuffs.
2.) You actually want a BLM party to deal dmg.
3.) The BLMs all sub scholar, and you need a stun-rotation.
4.) The mob is hard enough to warrant a BLM over SCH for higher macc on both nukes and stun.

Just sad cuz back in the day rdm was critical to have say against Kirin etc being the only job (even most couldn do this had to be exceptional rdm) that could stick enfeebles like slow III etc on NM HNMs. Now days everything is no threat. that enfeeble will not make or break the fight or they completely resist it. As for enhancing being the job with highest enhancing, we get no use for it. and cant aoe Enspell II for party is very unfortunate. They need to fix the resistance system to NMs and create a real danger, threat where NMs will need to be potently enfeebled and party members have to rely on the highest tier of Buffs to survive. Giving whm there job as healer and rdm back as its original place in the game. (A tanks best friend & Enemys biggest threat)

The shell I attend Provenance Watcher with uses a rdm to chainspell stun. As a result, we rarely see a fetter and rarely need a stagger after 50%.

I've also found rdm to be a better choice for bhaf 2 while farming usu plans because the first floor takes nearly half the run and only grants equipment pathos release.

What setup are you running with?

I did roughly half of my runs nin/thf + whm. Others with rdm instead.