Looking To See What Role Is A RDM Now?
Looking to see what role is a RDM now?
Do you know what the word 'compare' means?
I'm trying to be as neutral as possible and i'm also trying to point out where you could, maybe?, sometime?, rarely? see a rdm. also because lets stay real here, there is not a lot of people left on this game who care enough to push their rdm. but its not an absolute no to event for those few rdm
If i compared something, it wasn't my intention and I'm sorry. But even after re-reading, I still can't see where i've compared stuff.
edit added things
If i compared something, it wasn't my intention and I'm sorry. But even after re-reading, I still can't see where i've compared stuff.
edit added things
I read tthrough the debate sch vs rdm on refresh vs convert and status cures. Some people noted that sch is slightly ahead but not by miles. Or others mentioned how paralized while a party member is doomed. Thus he couldnt cure him.
People forgot to mention both jobs with empys. In schs case he cast regain upon himself and a +1 regain earring. Every 100 tp from back line he does his weapon skill to recover 400 to 900 mp at 100 mp depending upon race. So sch has endless mp over a rdm.
And hey i was cursed and paralized or silenced but upon doing my ws i healed myself completly. Rdm emp is for dmg so he wilfall behind in dmg. Sch pulls ahead by miles. l
People forgot to mention both jobs with empys. In schs case he cast regain upon himself and a +1 regain earring. Every 100 tp from back line he does his weapon skill to recover 400 to 900 mp at 100 mp depending upon race. So sch has endless mp over a rdm.
And hey i was cursed and paralized or silenced but upon doing my ws i healed myself completly. Rdm emp is for dmg so he wilfall behind in dmg. Sch pulls ahead by miles. l
You're not seriously talking about SCH melee, are you. What exactly do you use SCH for if you're not going to switch out your main staff?
Anyways.
If we were to use these numbers:
5.636 mp per tic for RDM with refresh2
6.818 mp per tik for SCH with sublimation
Of course max hp/mp depends on your sub, but it doesn't vary all that much. On my RDM, I have about 1050mp and on SCH, I have about 1150mp idle.
Assuming 8:20 convert for RDM w/full merits and 10:00 for SCH.
RDM - 8:20 = 500 seconds
1050 / 500 = 2.1/sec, or 6.3/tick
SCH - 10:00 = 600 seconds
1150 / 600 = 1.9/sec, or 5.7/tick.
5.6 + 6.3 = 11.9 (rdm)
6.8 + 5.7 = 12.5 (sch)
Even though SCH is still ahead by a little, it's really too close to call. Convert doesn't exactly get along with sublimation. The SCH may choose to idle in +HP gear. And so forth.
There are some cases where SCH is the clear winner though. In any situation where Penury or Parsimony can be used heavily, SCH will undoubtedly win. I would never use it for curing or haste, but I would definitely use it for raises or heavy nukes.
Anyways.
If we were to use these numbers:
5.636 mp per tic for RDM with refresh2
6.818 mp per tik for SCH with sublimation
Of course max hp/mp depends on your sub, but it doesn't vary all that much. On my RDM, I have about 1050mp and on SCH, I have about 1150mp idle.
Assuming 8:20 convert for RDM w/full merits and 10:00 for SCH.
RDM - 8:20 = 500 seconds
1050 / 500 = 2.1/sec, or 6.3/tick
SCH - 10:00 = 600 seconds
1150 / 600 = 1.9/sec, or 5.7/tick.
5.6 + 6.3 = 11.9 (rdm)
6.8 + 5.7 = 12.5 (sch)
Even though SCH is still ahead by a little, it's really too close to call. Convert doesn't exactly get along with sublimation. The SCH may choose to idle in +HP gear. And so forth.
There are some cases where SCH is the clear winner though. In any situation where Penury or Parsimony can be used heavily, SCH will undoubtedly win. I would never use it for curing or haste, but I would definitely use it for raises or heavy nukes.
Or I can just pop a vile elixir. Man, I need to go to bed.
I did not suggest to melee. But you can draw your staff on the monster from a distance for +1 regain a tic. And your spell is +1. So +2 a tic. Hence you get T2 regain just for having a drawn weapon in the distance.
If your nuking, even in dark arts t5 mode, you can also get 25 TP a tic with the JT that gives TP for elemental or darkness magic.
The weapon skill itself is /ws myrkr <me> It draw s 0 hate from a monster even if its not even aggroed. And you still have your whole sublimation stored.
So you get idle refresh if sub is stored, Sub + our ws. Rdm has no chance to compete if a good sch is using both of these for mp.
And as you pointed out you would use it for heavy nukes sowhy npt get all your MP back while your at it?
Me I use it to MB. BLMS can nuke, we will burst.
If your nuking, even in dark arts t5 mode, you can also get 25 TP a tic with the JT that gives TP for elemental or darkness magic.
The weapon skill itself is /ws myrkr <me> It draw s 0 hate from a monster even if its not even aggroed. And you still have your whole sublimation stored.
So you get idle refresh if sub is stored, Sub + our ws. Rdm has no chance to compete if a good sch is using both of these for mp.
And as you pointed out you would use it for heavy nukes sowhy npt get all your MP back while your at it?
Me I use it to MB. BLMS can nuke, we will burst.
I would like to see RDM come back in tough endgame NMs, I don't have much hope for it though..no real evidence but the HNM of Adoulin, atleast most, will probably go down the road of IG-style wherein enfeebs are vertially useless. Basing that on appearance and SE's on-going trend to cheap lazy difficulty tactics mostly..but I hope I'm wrong, it can be a really fun job under pressure.
Good catch on the convert merits upbeat, I have to admit I forgot they existed since I haven't been a rdm since rdm tanking still worked.
The empyrean staff only works if you aren't changing your weapon or get access to instant TP. IE: Useless outside in every event except voidwatch where you get a constant flow of ethers anyway.
(Edit: It is also semi-useful in NNI where you need your strats so cant switch to darkarts, but still want to melee and do dmg.)
Also, (although this should probably go in the sch forums) enlightenment really is a nice little JA for those "damn it I want to cast something" spells. The one exception being para where you should really have a remedy or 2 on you just incase, but if you really needed it could still risk the enlightenment.
The empyrean staff only works if you aren't changing your weapon or get access to instant TP. IE: Useless outside in every event except voidwatch where you get a constant flow of ethers anyway.
(Edit: It is also semi-useful in NNI where you need your strats so cant switch to darkarts, but still want to melee and do dmg.)
Also, (although this should probably go in the sch forums) enlightenment really is a nice little JA for those "damn it I want to cast something" spells. The one exception being para where you should really have a remedy or 2 on you just incase, but if you really needed it could still risk the enlightenment.
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
5.636 mp per tic for RDM with refresh2
6.818 mp per tik for SCH with sublimation
6.818 mp per tik for SCH with sublimation
total Time = base x composure x cape => 150 x 3 x 1.1 = 495 sec
total MP = MP/tick x #ticks - spellcost => 7 x (495/3) - 60 = 1095 MP
MP/sec = 1095/495 = 2.212121
or MP/tick = 2.212121 x 3 = 6.63636
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
refresh II is 6mp/tic
@Redshift I think you might of forgot to add Estq. Houseaux +2 for another 20% to the duration.
I'm so out of the loop on rdm :/
Also, how did you come up with 6.818/tic for sublimation on sch?
For sublimation, base is 8/tic.
For idle, 1 Refresh > 1 Sublimation, so the only piece worth using is the earring. (In my opinion of course.)
For a Hume with 15/15 hp merits and 5/5 Sublimation:
1405 hp base => 351 Sublimation + 50 from merits = 401 sublimation
For a 9/tic sublimation, it takes 45 tics to charge, or 135 seconds.
Sublimation has a 30 sec recast.
Now to calculate the average:
(9*135+0*30) = 7.364 mp/sec on average
(135+30)
For sublimation, base is 8/tic.
For idle, 1 Refresh > 1 Sublimation, so the only piece worth using is the earring. (In my opinion of course.)
For a Hume with 15/15 hp merits and 5/5 Sublimation:
1405 hp base => 351 Sublimation + 50 from merits = 401 sublimation
For a 9/tic sublimation, it takes 45 tics to charge, or 135 seconds.
Sublimation has a 30 sec recast.
Now to calculate the average:
(9*135+0*30) = 7.364 mp/sec on average
(135+30)
Another thing to consider.
Standard Gear Refresh for Sch: 1 Owleyes + 3 Head/Body Combo + 1 Legs + 0.5 Hands (I idle in Heralds, sue me.) [Ignoring Hexed+1 head for Sch]
Total: 5.5
Standard Gear Refresh for Rdm: 2 Head + 2 Body + 1 Hands/Feet Combo
Total: 5
If you swap out of Idle gear into refresh gear, then both are tied at 6.
Standard Gear Refresh for Sch: 1 Owleyes + 3 Head/Body Combo + 1 Legs + 0.5 Hands (I idle in Heralds, sue me.) [Ignoring Hexed+1 head for Sch]
Total: 5.5
Standard Gear Refresh for Rdm: 2 Head + 2 Body + 1 Hands/Feet Combo
Total: 5
If you swap out of Idle gear into refresh gear, then both are tied at 6.
I'm a taru so my sublimation caps a bit lower than yours :/
I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
[+]
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
I'm a taru so my sublimation caps a bit lower than yours :/
I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
Also, lolTaru hp (had to say it :P)
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
I'm a taru so my sublimation caps a bit lower than yours :/ I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
I generally leave moonshade out of refresh calculations because there are so few people who would choose refresh on it. I also don't generally count Spurrina Coif just because Hexed -1 is outside the grasp of most players for the purpose of +1 refresh.
And I'm slightly confused about SCH idling in Owleyes, I always assumed they'd use the Enhances Sublimation club off the Moblin in Grauberg.
If you were on RDM and had a SCH friend cast Adloquium you could main hand Mistilteinn for an extra Refresh provided you aren't already using a staff/Oneiros grip.
I've never done it myself, but MP is honestly never much of an issue with what RDM already has now.. I would assume the same goes for SCH in most cases.
I've never done it myself, but MP is honestly never much of an issue with what RDM already has now.. I would assume the same goes for SCH in most cases.
With my current Sublimation set I get 462mp return using this.
ItemSet 293716
That's assuming I can manage to stay in that set for the duration which isn't often.
If I set sublimation then switch gear I get 446mp return.
Max HP in Sublimation set is 1683
Max HP in Idle set is 1622
ItemSet 293716
That's assuming I can manage to stay in that set for the duration which isn't often.
If I set sublimation then switch gear I get 446mp return.
Max HP in Sublimation set is 1683
Max HP in Idle set is 1622
Odin.Jassik said: »
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
I'm a taru so my sublimation caps a bit lower than yours :/ I was trying to avoid gear (other than the earring) because it is incredibly varied from player to player. Do you use oneiros grip or owleyes. Do you have access to spurrina coif? do you idle in movement speed or have it equip on movement. I also believe the potential max is even for both jobs (potentially owleyes is slightly ahead of oneiros grip in the situation you aren't really using that much of your mp. Ironically that situation is the situation that mp efficiency means nothing, and is the situation 90% of events fall into right now :/
I generally leave moonshade out of refresh calculations because there are so few people who would choose refresh on it. I also don't generally count Spurrina Coif just because Hexed -1 is outside the grasp of most players for the purpose of +1 refresh.
And I'm slightly confused about SCH idling in Owleyes, I always assumed they'd use the Enhances Sublimation club off the Moblin in Grauberg.
Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Mp now is better than mp later. 1 Refresh > 1 Sublimation
Siriti is better if your mp pool is full or you're soloing, and the +10% dmg taken poses an issue (e.g. magic dmg).
If PDT issue then obviously Terra's/Earth.
Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Mp now is better than mp later. 1 Refresh > 1 Sublimation
Is that really all it does, lol.
Odin.Jassik said: »
Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Mp now is better than mp later. 1 Refresh > 1 Sublimation
Is that really all it does, lol.
Using the same math as before: (401 sublimation without considering hp gear)
1 Owleyes + 3 Refresh Head/Body + 1 Serpentes + 1 Nares legs = 6 Refresh
8 Base + 1 Earring = 9 Sublimation
401/9 => 45 tics = 135 secs
(9*135+0*30) = 7.364 + 6 = 13.364 per tic using refresh gear
(135+30)
1 Serpentes + 1 Nares legs = 2 Refresh
8 Base + 1 Earring + 1 Siriti + 3 Head/Body Combo = 13 Sublimation
401/13 => 31 tics = 93 secs
(13*93+4*30) = 10.804 + 2 = 12.804 per tic with sub gear
(93+30)
Basically, it is more efficient not to use Sublimation gear if you can equal it in refresh for maximizing mp.
Edit: Noticed I forgot to switch to refresh gear for the sublimation gear set when sublimation was down.
So basically what all this has proven is that SCH is slightly more MP efficient than RDM IF they are utilizing sublimation and refresh gear correctly...
Not miles ahead...
Not miles ahead...
[+]
This thread is so far off from what was really being asked. Its still on topic in a way but at this point its like driving down the highway with only the tires on the drivers side of the car on the road while the other 90% of the car is off the road.
The simple answer would be to say RDM has little optimal use currently while it has a ton of varied use, the problem is that it is not enough for it to be really useful in most events because you almost never need a job which can do it all. In the event you need someone who can do DDing and a healer, you often just take a SCH or WHM with the nearest Ukon WAR you can find, and your good to go, the same can be said with nuking mixed in there.
The simple answer would be to say RDM has little optimal use currently while it has a ton of varied use, the problem is that it is not enough for it to be really useful in most events because you almost never need a job which can do it all. In the event you need someone who can do DDing and a healer, you often just take a SCH or WHM with the nearest Ukon WAR you can find, and your good to go, the same can be said with nuking mixed in there.
[+]
Dia III.
When RDM gets it's next big ability, haters will bandwagon back to it. It's still a damn good job.
When RDM gets it's next big ability, haters will bandwagon back to it. It's still a damn good job.
What like,
new spell: Rage
"Enhances critical hitrate, but cant be targeted on party members"
sick
new spell: Rage
"Enhances critical hitrate, but cant be targeted on party members"
sick
[+]
RDM needs the better sword WS's (Vorpal Swift)
More stuff like Temper for Acc/atk/eva/tripple atk
Fencer...for the love of god Fencer
Auto-Refresh
Haste 2
Weaponskill Matk
Overhaul really
Overhaul on Enspells: maybe add mainhand dmg + skill into the equation like on Lunge
More stuff like Temper for Acc/atk/eva/tripple atk
Fencer...for the love of god Fencer
Auto-Refresh
Haste 2
Weaponskill Matk
Overhaul really
Overhaul on Enspells: maybe add mainhand dmg + skill into the equation like on Lunge
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