What Was The Summoner Nerf?

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2022-11-10
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What was the summoner nerf?
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 Phoenix.Evolved
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By Phoenix.Evolved 2022-12-03 15:18:14
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What exactly were these summoner nerfs from about 5 years ago to present? I've looked and looked and looked, and I can't find any concrete data, except people saying there is a BP wall now.

Does anyone have any concrete information, like which update it was in? Or patch notes somewhere on the forums?
 Fenrir.Velner
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By Fenrir.Velner 2022-12-03 15:26:46
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Phoenix.Evolved said: »
What exactly were these summoner nerfs from about 5 years ago to present? I've looked and looked and looked, and I can't find any concrete data, except people saying there is a BP wall now.

Does anyone have any concrete information, like which update it was in? Or patch notes somewhere on the forums?

There isn't a general BP wall applied to all content. With newer content, the devs tend to include the BP wall, meaning successive BPs are considerably less effective. Newer Ambuscades have it and Odyssey bosses have it but they didn't add it to older content like Aeonics. I'm not sure if Sortie has the BP wall but I suspect that it does.
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 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2022-12-03 20:45:15
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Repeat bloodpact damage resistance to counter conduit use or multiple summoner use.

For a few seconds after a bloodpact any additional pacts have heavy damage resistance applied.

It first showed up in dynamis d, also appears in ambuscades as they patch and cycle them, odyssey and possibly sortie.

Geas fete. Omen, and stuff before all have no resistance.

Summoner is still viable as damage sources in current content with normal pact use and buffs.
 Phoenix.Evolved
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By Phoenix.Evolved 2022-12-04 00:45:41
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Good deal. My aeonic group has sold out, and we are all making summoners just to get it done. But we had a problem with Zerde and flaming crush. We were wondering if we hit the Magic Damage wall possibly. Damage started out great, then went very low towards the end of AFAC.

Thank you for the clarification!
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By Pantafernando 2022-12-04 02:02:53
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We must unite and riot against SE to restore SMN full dmg capabilities.

I only pay $13.99 a month so i can fry every foes while conduiting.

Whats the point of playing without it?

Conduit burns matters
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2022-12-05 16:25:22
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Phoenix.Evolved said: »
Good deal. My aeonic group has sold out, and we are all making summoners just to get it done. But we had a problem with Zerde and flaming crush. We were wondering if we hit the Magic Damage wall possibly. Damage started out great, then went very low towards the end of AFAC.

Thank you for the clarification!

Fire Rayke may be the missing ingredient if you were hitting the nuke wall. There's not really time for both Gambit+Rayke so make sure they use Rayke first.

Also, Frailty+Languor. It's a common mistake to use Frailty+Malaise for this. Languor is better, and helps land stun too.
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By Jetackuu 2022-12-05 18:49:11
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Phoenix.Evolved said: »
Good deal. My aeonic group has sold out, and we are all making summoners just to get it done. But we had a problem with Zerde and flaming crush. We were wondering if we hit the Magic Damage wall possibly. Damage started out great, then went very low towards the end of AFAC.

Thank you for the clarification!
Use Siren instead. Also your bubble probably died.

edit: my personal preference.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2022-12-05 22:09:07
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The problem with the BP Wall is that it makes Apogee nearly useless in content where it's applied to.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-12-05 22:14:36
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
The problem with the BP Wall is that it makes Apogee nearly useless in content where it's applied to.

Nope. It makes it so you can't mash it back to back but you can use it and still use it again 10 seconds later which is still 20 seconds faster.

(or 15 or whatever it is, I don't use smn anymore)

It also doesn't make conduit "useless" either. It just makes it reasonable. Like 5 instead of 23 pacts.
(I know you don't understand the difference and it's unfair and I can't do what I want to and savage blade and all the same ***again)
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2022-12-05 22:32:14
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To clear the air on a few misconceptions here:
-BP cooldown is now 20 seconds with the right gear, meaning Apogee saves you 10 seconds if there's a 10 second BP wall
-If there's a 10 second BP wall that means your Conduit does at most 3 BPs because it lasts 30 seconds, extremely close to useless seeing as how you can do 3 BP in 40 seconds with apogee. So it basically gives you 1 extra BP over a 3 minute cooldown.
-In defense of Conduit, it also gives you 100% MP back, resets CD on BP when you use it, and adds 20% damage (with JP) so it's still not useless, just not as good as it should be
-In further defense of Conduit, it can still be used for BP:W, typically Mewing, to full effect with no BP wall. Same could be said for cures, blink, stoneskin, or whatever else you want (though not commonly used)
-Apogee is much less useful than it could be, but can still be used for BP:W in situations where BP wall exists. Can get up a couple buffs between BP:R. Not ideal, but still not entirely useless.

All that said: if a mob has BP wall, you just don't bring a SMN, at least not for damage. And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days...It's in a very weak place and has a tough time justifying itself, except in some small niches with a very dedicated player and a group built around it.
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By Cloudius777 2022-12-05 23:17:50
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Apogee should be a 1min cooldown, it still has the downside of using more MP for the extra BP
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By Vaerix 2022-12-06 01:01:50
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »

...
-In further defense of Conduit, it can still be used for BP:W, typically Mewing, to full effect with no BP wall.

This is not true, idk if other fights have been tested but odyssey gaol A3 bosses have reduced effectiveness of mew between 1s and 45s after last use.

You can see this simply by using apogee mew, you get get same tp for both mews with no action occurring between.

We use smn as our tp denial method of choice and have seen it numerous times with fast mew vs waiting 30s between all mews.
 Asura.Jdove
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-06 08:41:44
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It's also worth noting that if you have multiple smn's it doesnt matter who did the blood pact, the other smn's have to wait for the cool down or be nerfed. This effectively makes multiple smn's step on each others toes and nerf all the blood pacts because most smn's never coordinate their timers.
 Asura.Jdove
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-06 08:44:14
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days..
This is why i don't play anymore .....Is sortie the only place smn is used and the job no one wants to do it on? Is everywhere else still like F U and your smn? (Other than omen and aeonics if people even use them for that anymore.)
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2022-12-06 09:11:25
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
The problem with the BP Wall is that it makes Apogee nearly useless in content where it's applied to.

Nope. It makes it so you can't mash it back to back but you can use it and still use it again 10 seconds later which is still 20 seconds faster.

(or 15 or whatever it is, I don't use smn anymore)

It also doesn't make conduit "useless" either. It just makes it reasonable. Like 5 instead of 23 pacts.
(I know you don't understand the difference and it's unfair and I can't do what I want to and savage blade and all the same ***again)
You do know theres a difference between "...it make Apogee nearly useless" and "...it makes Apogee useless"? I used the former line.
(I know you don't understand the difference and it's unfair and I just want to *** about the FFXI playerbase with incorrect statements in regards to something I know nothing about like BP timers)
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-12-06 10:32:18
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It doesn't make it nearly useless either. Like I said, I know you don't know what it means.

It doesn't work how I want it to so it's bad!

Sure it breaks multiple smns, that's on purpose. Feature not bug.
 Asura.Jdove
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-06 10:52:53
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Sure it breaks multiple smns, that's on purpose. Feature not bug.
If you are referring to my post, I never said it was a bug.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2022-12-06 11:11:51
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
All that said: if a mob has BP wall, you just don't bring a SMN, at least not for damage. And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days...It's in a very weak place and has a tough time justifying itself, except in some small niches with a very dedicated player and a group built around it.


Yeah, don't be this shitler. A well geared summoner can and will run circles around DD in numerous situations.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2022-12-06 11:19:43
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Asura.Frod said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
All that said: if a mob has BP wall, you just don't bring a SMN, at least not for damage. And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days...It's in a very weak place and has a tough time justifying itself, except in some small niches with a very dedicated player and a group built around it.


Yeah, don't be this shitler. A well geared summoner can and will run circles around DD in numerous situations.
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 Leviathan.Boposhopo
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By Leviathan.Boposhopo 2022-12-06 11:31:33
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Asura.Frod said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
All that said: if a mob has BP wall, you just don't bring a SMN, at least not for damage. And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days...It's in a very weak place and has a tough time justifying itself, except in some small niches with a very dedicated player and a group built around it.


Yeah, don't be this shitler. A well geared summoner can and will run circles around DD in numerous situations.

Does this situation involve the DDs just standing around not doing anything?

I love my SMN, but to say it can run circles around a DD is just incorrect. I see them more as a utility job than anything. They're not the best or worst at any particular role which makes them hard to fit into a lot of setups, especially low man. They have the same issue as every other pet job where they're really only used for very specific scenarios as there are better options for almost anything they do in other jobs.
 Asura.Sensarity
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By Asura.Sensarity 2022-12-06 11:46:40
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Asura.Frod said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
All that said: if a mob has BP wall, you just don't bring a SMN, at least not for damage. And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days...It's in a very weak place and has a tough time justifying itself, except in some small niches with a very dedicated player and a group built around it.


Yeah, don't be this shitler. A well geared summoner can and will run circles around DD in numerous situations.

*laughs in Savage Blade*
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2022-12-06 12:33:00
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Smn has been a great help in our Ody group to provide another buffer/special dps that wasn't locked out but if we could have used another job instead we would have. The way the job works just has inherent issues. It has frustrated me to no end. Yes, Smn CAN do all sorts of things, but the limitations on it make it so that while it checks a box, it is functionally hampered and the pact wall is yet another limitation. TBH, I don't even know why Ody has that limit... you can't even use two smns at once.

Personally, I think they should just make it so that BPward doesn't even require summoning the avatar AND those buffs should hit whatever avatar you have out. Be so nice if any other avatar could make use of hastega ect.
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By Nariont 2022-12-06 12:49:19
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Personally, I think they should just make it so that BPward doesn't even require summoning the avatar AND those buffs should hit whatever avatar you have out. Be so nice if any other avatar could make use of hastega ect.

Think it'd be more likely they just remove the reset on avatar's favor when you swap/avatar dies and let it just build naturally so long as the JA is activated, since that basically runs counter to the current pace of SMNs BP rotation, moreso when its leaning heavier into its support role which is SE's "intended" way of playing smn(still waiting on those ward buffs but eh)
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-12-06 12:57:57
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There should be a note on BG Wiki about this Successive Blood Pact "wall" on the Blood Pact page that explains this mechanic in detail so it's all in one place. And I think the same thing should be included about the Repeat WS wall mechanic on the WS page, particularly with Sortie bosses in mind.
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2022-12-06 13:06:44
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Ward buffs, really? Do they need that? I think the problem with SMN is that they're decent at a few things, and not exceptional at any of them. They have a few unique or at least very rare offerings, but they're not required for enough fights where it really matters.

In terms of buffs though, they already have: Warcry, TP Bonus, Haste II, Stoneskin, Earthen Armor, all stats, Accuracy, enspells, Blink, and MAB. For debuffs they have -eva, elegy, all stats down, slow, silence, Sleep, Dispel, TP reduction, Amnesia, Attack down, Accuracy down, and Stun.

Now imagine buffing any/all of those. I mean sure, there's a cooldown on BP:W, and many of them are hard/impossible to hit on mobs, but if you make all these things reliable and comparable to a RDM, BRD, or GEO's debuffs, you're going to have a seriously powerful job, especially considering how many of those are AOE, and this is only BP:W, not considering BP:R and the fact that all of this is risk-free, ignores all hate mechanics, and gives the mob no TP.

SMN is also similar in design to BLM, you have to be extremely careful with making it competitive with other jobs (buff, debuff, heal, or DD) because if it rivals their damage, healing, buffing, or debuffing, why not just bring SMN? It's safer and brings a lot more to the table. Imagine you have savage blade damage on a SMN, who can also coincidentally do all the stuff listed above.

At the end of the day, you have to realize if you're playing an off-the-beaten-path job like BLU, BST, SMN, DNC, etc. that there's a reason you aren't doing the damage as a Caladbolg DRK, don't have as strong of debuffs as a RDM, can't heal as well as a WHM, and don't have the buff potential of a BRD or a COR. There are some jobs which are mixed utility, which makes them a nightmare to balance. Of course I'm sure armchair critics on forums have brilliant ideas about how to buff their favorite job in a fair and balanced way though, IDK.

I freely admit that balance in a game as complex as FFXI is complicated and I don't have all the answers. I, for one, am amazed it's even remotely close to balanced considering the dozens of events and 22 (mostly) unique jobs they have to keep in check.
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By Nariont 2022-12-06 13:47:14
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Ward buffs, really? Do they need that?

Kinda, the SS is garbage, the warcry is weak compared to other atk boosts, that stat buffs and acc buffs are also pretty weak. Their debuffs are actually pretty on par with general options, only really lacking a mdb/def down option, as to amnesia im not sure how often that actually lands, their favors have grown fairly well compared to other buff options available.

I'm mostly just going off SE's intent on design, they want SMN to be a more debuff/buff support oriented pet job, if that's the route they wanna go they need to be able to perform that and some of the support wards need a bump to be at all worthwhile.

The job itself is in the same pool as every other pet job not named DRG or GEO, which can be barely called such, i just think it's probably the most mechanically complete compared to the mess that is bst/pup, its still mostly a mess of good ideas but ultimately falls into a niche roll and otherwise replaced with a specialist, or even just a job that can perform the multiple rolls needed better due to the timed delays in everything smn does due to timers/swapping
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2022-12-06 13:58:09
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Ward buffs, really? Do they need that?
My utilization of Smn is often as a buffer in Ody for C string group. I'm not saying this would fix smn, I'm not saying that is all they need and I am no expert on smn but it sure would have helped me.

It sucks to have to dismiss a pet and then summon another avatar and then position it so it will hit all targets needed and then use the JA and then dismiss and then resummon the one you were using and then assault and then go back to doing what you were doing but now minus whatever self buffs the avatar might have had, like Garuda's hastega or ifrit's warcry.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2022-12-06 14:06:20
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Yeah I mean none of them are competitive with other jobs with the same buff, but my point was that they have all this stuff combined, in addition to being able to deal damage. If you give them a GEO's attack bonus in addition to all stats, accuracy, TP bonus, haste 2, and all the other stuff, and then add on top of that they can do hateless TPless damage and don't need to be standing in the mob's taint, it could be a death knell for other jobs, who will in turn be bitching in the forums about how their bonus isn't relevant anymore.

Sure, taken in a vacuum, some of the BPs are kinda ***. Honestly most of them are. But jobs don't exist in a vacuum, they need to be taken on the whole. That's not to say that they couldn't bump things up a few %, but an across the board improvement of BP:W would be very risky IMHO. A lot of them kinda suck, but if they were scaled to RDM/BRD/COR/GEO levels, the job just has too many tools.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-12-06 14:18:08
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Nariont said: »
their favors have grown fairly well compared to other buff options available.

Just wanted to highlight that, since I think a lot of people overlook or dismiss favors.

Shiva's Favor at max potency gives MAB+51. That's equivalent to a lucky Wizard's Roll with BLM job bonus from a Regal Necklace COR: MAB+25 (base with V roll) + MAB+10 (BLM job bonus) + MAB+16 (+2 x Phantom Roll +8) = MAB+51. Not bad at all.

Some of the other favor effects are also useful. Siren's Subtle Blow II +25 (unique SMN buff that synergizes well with using SMNs for Mewing in a low TP feed fight), Ramuh's Crit rate +25%, Ifrit's ~DA+26 or so, etc.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-12-06 14:22:16
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And that would be fine, if the smn could do something other than just that. And it's also fine when the smn can buff and drop.

It's a rollcor. so 2010.

The buffs need to be better than what other buffers give because the job is weaker. Give smn hastega3 so it can be the single source of haste and give it better def- and att+ so it can eliminate geo and brd, now we're talking. (I guess make hastega3 also have flurry3)

Or, of course, fix buffing in general. Buff stacking is regoddamndiculous.
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