What Was The Summoner Nerf?

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What was the summoner nerf?
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2022-12-06 14:30:56
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Yeah I mean none of them are competitive with other jobs with the same buff

I mean, some of them are. Hastega II is badass. And I understand that balance is hard. If they make smn too good, then it'll replace a ton of other things and then we have the exact same problem but for those other jobs.

But part of the balance is that smn cannot just recast all those buffs as easily as a brd or a whm or a sch. Even if they were the same potency, smn is harshly limited by being able to quickly get buffs up. It wouldn't matter if you have 30 on-par buffs/debuffs if you can only use one per 20 seconds and honestly, it's usually a bigger wait because you have just resummoned most of the time and your favor hasn't charged at all or you can't switch exactly as your ward timer is up delaying things further.

If I want the avatar to tank? Well, I guess you won't be doing anything else cause you can't unsummon to do any buffs or debuffs.

If I want to be able to heal as a smn (without a sub) If a buff goes down, I can't heal for the next 20 seconds because I needed to rehaste or I have to burn Apo for it. Smn can just not be a good healer as they cannot keep up. In 20 seconds your entire party is already dead.
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By Nariont 2022-12-06 14:32:28
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
A lot of them kinda suck, but if they were scaled to RDM/BRD/COR/GEO levels, the job just has too many tools.

Im not saying they should be that level, but slightly under, think similar to how blu used to be with its jack of all trade buffs, same effects, lower potency, you're replacing spell slots with the tedium of avatar swapping and BP timers. My main point is that outside a very select few, the buff wards are slightly above a waste.

A brd/cor/rdm/geo can safely drop very potent buffs(and debuffs) and still provide either a strong backline support function, or a currently strong DPS role, current day smn is struggling to do either of these, let alone both at any respectable measure due to player power creep, outside of again, very niche debuffs strats, which is no different from what bst is stuck with atm with slug and tp denial

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Just wanted to highlight that, since I think a lot of people overlook or dismiss favors.

The biggest fault i see with favors is that A. Current game wipes avatars, not quite instantly but low hp pool and some of these favor builds really hurt on the DT- aspect, can be fixed sure but then that just means grinding up the tier ladder more.

and B. Just that resetting aspect, along with the more support focused smn possibly having to juggle multiple summons it's hard to maintain those strong auras, if it were possible id like to be able to just plant some kind of temp bubble, or pick from a favor and only build that one, they're strong buffs, just very sporatic due to how the game flows currently
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2022-12-06 15:02:43
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Nerfing Conduit was understandable because of aeonic burning, and was almost certainly implemented for that specific reason, and for upcoming content as a secondary reason, back then there were so many complaints to SE about conduit even they couldn't ignore it.

Astonishingly SE has a genius who creates a nerf for a specific reason, then does not apply it to that content anyway, conduit burning aeonics still works exactly the same.

I would still hope a lot of the features of the nerf were overlooked side effects, would they really want to stop smn's being able to play together effectively, or avatars being able to skillchain with each other or themselves?

The nerf is a reduction of 100% dmg to 10% dmg and lasts around 8 seconds after any previous blood pact rage, regardless of which summoner used it, which makes it just outlast the skillchain window.

I used to use Chaotic Strike into Volt Strike for Distortion, and with apogee, any 2 blood pacts from different avatars can be used solo with enough fast cast to avatar self skillchain too, more advanced summoner gameplay like that has been crippled.

It's one thing to nerf an exploitable mechanic, but SE ended up nuking smn as a whole for any content with the nerf.

I know some of the top smn players have commented in this thread, and feel smn is still really good, but the reality I've found at least, is we try to make it as good as we can, in spite of the nerf, and some of us are defensive about it more for our love of smn than being able to admit that even with the dedication and crazy effort yall have put into making smn "viable", it's still sub par even with that insane amount of effort in many situations.

I really do and still love smn, so it pains me to have to write negatively about the job, I would of liked to get into all the specifics, I have "many" examples off the top of my head but don't want a wall of text for people here to read, but it basically would have showed all the compromises and effort in a multitude of scenarios where making a smn viable in that situation takes excessive effort, and a lot of the time is still not enough.

Regardless, I still hope people still enjoy playing smn, I hope my post doesn't sound preachy or combative, just wanted to share my opinion on the matter, I'm not currently subbed atm anyway, so for now the nerf isn't affecting me lol
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By Jetackuu 2022-12-06 16:09:01
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Siren.Kruel said: »
Nerfing Conduit was understandable because of aeonic burning
Strong disagree.
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By Nariont 2022-12-06 16:21:29
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Think the dyna-d/odin model of WS/BP decay was the ideal way to handle things, it didnt make the following move completely awful, it just gradually ramped up the wall so you still couldnt spam effectively, instead of what we currently have, or worse(still do? Think it got patched) where the 1st hit of a BP got full dmg and the following got hard nerfed, making any of SMNs go-to rages worthless
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 Leviathan.Boposhopo
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By Leviathan.Boposhopo 2022-12-06 16:30:48
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The biggest issue I have with SMN buffs is they're not unique, or can't take up a unique slot for the most part. Wind's Blessing and Shining Ruby conflict with One for All and Rampart, Noctoshield Conflicts with Phalanx, Glittering Ruby/Ecliptic Growl conflict with Boosts/Gain, enspells conflict with enspells, etc. I'm not saying they all have to be completely unique, but it renders a lot of those buffs pointless cause you don't want them to interfere with the buffs already going out. This leaves like Earthen Armor, Hastega and Crystal Blessing as the only really useful buffs you can use without conflicting with other jobs better potency JA's or spells.

Debuffs I feel just have a weird potency issue. Slow/Elegy are fine as they are, Levi's atk down is strong if it ever lands, but Diamond Storm is essentially useless, Diabolos bio is 1HP/tick, Carby poison is 1HP/tick, Lunar Howl is only eva/acc -31 depending on phase, etc. I don't think a lot needs to change, just updated. Scale it with summoning skill or something. I wouldn't want to change their flat bonus cause it'd make low level smn really strong (which is kind of an issue I guess?), but they do need an update imo.

Complete side note, always bugged me the one pet job (DRG) that doesn't rely heavily on their pet to do DMG/Tank/Buff/ETC is the one job that can transfer buffs to their pet, but the others can't. Having Mana Cede or something transfer buffs from Master to pet would let them utilize buffs to help with their damage/debuffing without having to have pet specific buffs (essentially just rolls) on them.
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By georgebush 2022-12-06 16:55:40
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I hope they give summoner a much needed increase to their ward blood pacts. Many of the ward blood pacts seem like they are useful until you look how much they actually buff and you realize they are not even worth doing outside of putting them on to help buff Naegling bonus.

Fenrir (Ecliptic Howl): ACC/EVA buff - Based off of moon phase (minimum = 1 ACC/EVA; Maximum = 26 ACC/EVA; AVG = +13 ACC/EVA)

Fenrir (Ecliptic Growl): All stats buff - Based off of moon phase (Min = +1 to stats; MAX = +7 to stats; AVG Increase = +4 to stats)

Fenrir (Lunar Cry): Lower Targets ACC/EVA - Based off of moon phase (Min = -1 MOB ACC/EVA; Max = -31 MOB ACC/EVA; AVG = -16 MOB ACC/EVA)

Fenrir (Impact): Lowers all mobs stats by -32 - If a player casted impact on Aita(494 INT) they would take off -100 to all stats. It is safe to assume any mob that you would want impact on there is a better option available for you than having the SMN put it on.

Not to mention Diabolos's phalanx only gives -13 compared to -35 (base) from a player casting phalanx. Or Dreamshroud only giving 1 to 13 MAB/MDB.

To me these should all be buffed, we are not level 75 anymore.

Also don't forget a warrior's warcry does not overwrite Ifrit's warcry so be sure you take it off every time the warrior needs to warcry.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-12-06 17:03:02
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Leviathan.Boposhopo said: »
The biggest issue I have with SMN buffs is they're not unique,

Yes, SMN buffs should provide regular DT +5, that'll work out well...


SMN ward buffs are pretty solid, it's the avatar favor that needs updating as while a few are good, most are useless. If Ifrits did attack+ or Garuda's did Haste+ then I could see fitting them into a similar slot as a GEO, especially in content where GEO debuffs get nerfed.
 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2022-12-06 17:26:55
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Nariont said: »
Think the dyna-d/odin model of WS/BP decay was the ideal way to handle things, it didnt make the following move completely awful, it just gradually ramped up the wall so you still couldnt spam effectively, instead of what we currently have, or worse(still do? Think it got patched) where the 1st hit of a BP got full dmg and the following got hard nerfed, making any of SMNs go-to rages worthless
This would have been an acceptable fix to the conduit "issue" and still keep smn fully functional, totally agree with you.

The way it currently functions in game on content it's applied to is:

Starts at -10% damage dealt for the first repeated move, increases to -25%, -60%, and caps at -85% by use of the same skill seven times.
This reduction is applied to each singular skill and is not reduced in time.
Players must use five other abilities to reset the reduction.
Debuffs such as slow, silence, dispel, etc as well as other weaponskills count towards resetting the penalties.

Paraphrased from wiki.
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By Cloudius777 2022-12-06 18:44:54
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I think EVERY avatar should have what Ramuh has, a way to give the elemental en-spell and spikes to all members.
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 Carbuncle.Papesse
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By Carbuncle.Papesse 2022-12-06 19:42:07
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The best way to play SMN efficiently is as a main healer (WHM replacement) not as a buffer. Aside of specific situations (Gaol NMs, Mew or EA/Scherzo strats) SMN cannot replace a real a buffer job but the job works extremely well as a healer with several unique tools that distinguish it from WHM, SCH or RDM.
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By Jetackuu 2022-12-06 19:48:12
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Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
The best way to play SMN efficiently is as a main healer (WHM replacement) not as a buffer. Aside of specific situations (Gaol NMs, Mew or EA/Scherzo strats) SMN cannot replace a real a buffer job but the job works extremely well as a healer with several unique tools that distinguish it from WHM, SCH or RDM.
lolno
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 Ragnarok.Magicobandito
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By Ragnarok.Magicobandito 2022-12-06 21:46:53
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Asura.Jdove said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days..
This is why i don't play anymore .....Is sortie the only place smn is used and the job no one wants to do it on? Is everywhere else still like F U and your smn? (Other than omen and aeonics if people even use them for that anymore.)

SMN is used by very few (I know of no one) for Sortie. It is uncommonly used in Odyssey. Mboze might be the most common use for it and it is only to mew; even then BST or BLU seems to be more common for TP suppression.

I have a really well geared SMN ready to go the moment it's needed, but those moments are few and far between. I can make it work with my multi-box, but it's just easier to use other jobs.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2022-12-06 21:48:52
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mewing lullaby and/or pacifying ruby are SMN's main uses these days. ruby is really really strong when it is applicable
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 Ragnarok.Magicobandito
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By Ragnarok.Magicobandito 2022-12-06 22:05:48
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I do wonder if I could use my SMN in sortie for SC effectively, since SC made from multiple WS are worth nothing in basement sortie. I'm assuming whether opening or closing the SC, that the blood pact and resulting SC damage would be max damage.

Maybe I'll try that on one of my runs. Just hard to justify experimenting when I can more easily use SCH to open a SC that a DD then closes.
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-06 22:08:23
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Jetackuu said: »
Nerfing Conduit was understandable because of aeonic burning
I'm just speculating here but I dont think aeonic burning had anything to do with the smn nerf. They didnt nerf it because the players wanted it nerfed they most likely didnt even read any of the nerf smn threads or anything that's in English at all. I think they nerfed it because they want to prolong the new content as long as possible w/o giving us anything else do to and smn burning would have just let people burn thru it all in a couple days.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2022-12-06 22:11:20
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Ragnarok.Magicobandito said: »
I do wonder if I could use my SMN in sortie for SC effectively, since SC made from multiple WS are worth nothing in basement sortie. I'm assuming whether opening or closing the SC, that the blood pact and resulting SC damage would be max damage.

Maybe I'll try that on one of my runs. Just hard to justify experimenting when I can more easily use SCH to open a SC that a DD then closes.

think the main consideration here would be the squishiness of the avatars, and on the balamor one in particular (I will never remember their sortie names) you have to contend with frequent amnesia spam from the totems
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 Asura.Jdove
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-06 22:18:24
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Ragnarok.Magicobandito said: »
Asura.Jdove said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
And frankly, don't bring a SMN to most content these days..
This is why i don't play anymore .....Is sortie the only place smn is used and the job no one wants to do it on? Is everywhere else still like F U and your smn? (Other than omen and aeonics if people even use them for that anymore.)

SMN is used by very few (I know of no one) for Sortie. It is uncommonly used in Odyssey. Mboze might be the most common use for it and it is only to mew; even then BST or BLU seems to be more common for TP suppression.

I have a really well geared SMN ready to go the moment it's needed, but those moments are few and far between. I can make it work with my multi-box, but it's just easier to use other jobs.
Yea i was just confirming this cuz my freind was like "SMN is back" and i knew it didnt change 1 bit. Being as how smn was literally my only job for 15 years cuz i wanted it to be i decided if the game doesn't need smn I dont need the game.
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2022-12-06 22:24:39
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Asura.Jdove said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Nerfing Conduit was understandable because of aeonic burning
I'm just speculating here but I dont think aeonic burning had anything to do with the smn nerf. They didnt nerf it because the players wanted it nerfed they most likely didnt even read any of the nerf smn threads or anything that's in English at all. I think they nerfed it because they want to prolong the new content as long as possible w/o giving us anything else do to and smn burning would have just let people burn thru it all in a couple days.
Jetackuu only took the start of that sentence in his post from my quote, I wrote 2 reasons, the 2nd one being to nerf it for upcoming content as to stop conduiting burning being a future problem for that planned content.

Of course it's speculation on my end that the primary reason was for aeonic burning, but the timing of the nerf I would have expected alongside some new content like dyna d or whatever if the main reason they acted on nerfing smn was for new content.

Not to be confused, I'm not saying they created the nerf for aeonic burning, because obviously they didn't apply it to that, but from the timing and such, I just reckon it was the catalyst.
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By Hopalong 2022-12-06 22:41:06
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I think nerfing summoner burn was in the pipeline for awhile. It was big in like korrolaka tunnel? basically even before conduit, summoner burn was kindof broken when applied. Luckily the player base had a don't talk about it mentality.

They nerfed it in tandem or before perhaps with geo nerfs because in their current content, it was broke. Like one strategy broke.

There's some knowledgeable people here who can say exactly where the nerf applies but in general its still a really powerful strat for a lot of content.

If SE continues nerfing acaf in future content, that would be a wtf moment for smns everywhere so I hope they dont do that.
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2022-12-06 22:44:05
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If I remember correctly, SE did a patch that stopped Korroloka burning eventually.

I can't remember exactly how it was done, but it abused level sync.

My timeline might be off, but I don't think abyssea was too long after that anyway, so cleaving became way better than that too.
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By Hopalong 2022-12-06 22:47:08
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Smn isn't being completely fogotten tho with SE increasing astral favor tiers etc, there's hope.
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2022-12-06 22:48:25
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Hopalong said: »
Smn isn't being completely fogotten tho with SE increasing astral favor tiers etc, there's hope.
Always "fingers crossed".

It's actually been 12 months since a GM replied to me about the possibilities that they may have had unforeseen side effects, and assured me they were taking it seriously and looking into it.

He had contacted me for more information.

I put in a bug report last year, didn't realise that they can contact you in game about it.

edit. Forgot to say, SE made my report an accepted bug, therefor they agree the side effects of the nerf were not intended.
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 Asura.Jdove
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-07 17:12:35
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Siren.Kruel said: »
n isn't being completely fogotten tho with SE increasing astral favor tiers etc, there's hope.
I think favor was just programed to get better with higher summoning magic, which if is the case its only raised because the levels increased.
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2022-12-07 18:14:16
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Asura.Jdove said: »
Siren.Kruel said: »
n isn't being completely fogotten tho with SE increasing astral favor tiers etc, there's hope.
I think favor was just programed to get better with higher summoning magic, which if is the case its only raised because the levels increased.

Amd, you know, SE literally put avatar's favor on gear that they recently released.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2022-12-07 18:58:24
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I wouldnt put much stock in that considering they put Fencer+4 on war emp legs+3
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By Asura.Jdove 2022-12-07 20:23:26
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Asura.Jdove said: »
Siren.Kruel said: »
n isn't being completely fogotten tho with SE increasing astral favor tiers etc, there's hope.
I think favor was just programed to get better with higher summoning magic, which if is the case its only raised because the levels increased.

Amd, you know, SE literally put avatar's favor on gear that they recently released.
Ah cool, nope been gone for 6 months and i didn't look.
 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2022-12-08 09:43:57
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Man I remember how much SMN burning ripped apart HNMs back in the day pre ilvl days because they ignored level correction. 120 damage Wheeling Thrusts with BiS gear on DRG, but NQ SMN would do 1200 Spinning Dives or 1600 Predator Claws.
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By Odin.Danial 2023-01-04 10:05:26
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Asura.Frod said: »
Summoner is still viable as damage sources in current content with normal pact use and buffs.

Comedian of the month, SMN has three uses, and one of them SE clearly doesn't want around, and the other two are so niche its hardly worth mentioning. Really hope they take a hard look at how to revamp SMN because the only thing that made them fun was their 2 hour.
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By Lakshmi.Cesil 2023-01-04 12:14:29
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Odin.Danial said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Summoner is still viable as damage sources in current content with normal pact use and buffs.

Comedian of the month, SMN has three uses, and one of them SE clearly doesn't want around, and the other two are so niche its hardly worth mentioning. Really hope they take a hard look at how to revamp SMN because the only thing that made them fun was their 2 hour.

Reading this makes me not wanna bother finishing my Nirvana ; ; I did the alexander/odin/w/e part, I just have to do the rest and tbh, with how little I play it...I think I'd rather not bother atm! It truly does have little use. ; ;

Such a shame, not to go on a rant or anything, but SMN was my first job and it was so much fun back then, a shame what it's become :(
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