What's Good About FFXI.

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What's good about FFXI.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 10:17:33
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Mattelot said: »
Odin.Creaucent said: »
people who obviously haven't got very far try to bash it

I defended XIV on the WoW forums not long ago when some guy gave his "review" of the game, talking about how "terrible" it was after he played it for a whole 2 whopping days. Never even unlocked his first job stone or did anything relevant.

There was an in depth Old WoW player whom discussed the differences between WoW vs FFXIV upload that I watched & listened to out of curiosity having played 14 myself and 11 as well while never having any interests in WoW. There are actually quite a few upload discussing such but this one covered what I wanted to know.


YouTube Video Placeholder


Basically the Formula goes as such
FFXI > WoW
FFXIV > WoW
FFXI > FFXIV

As much as I rip 14 to shreds. That game is that much better than WoW itself via listening to old WoW players themselves.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-28 10:23:34
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FFXIV is not a bad game at all. I've mentioned before that I had a blast playing MCH and I've played and leveled every job except PLD and BRD. I did a lot of end game content. It just never gave me the feelings of accomplishment and satisfaction that XI gave. Mileage will of course vary.

The same goes with WoW. Though to me, it's at the bottom end of the totem pole right now. The quality of the last 2 expansions has gotten worse.

The devs for XIV do a much better job than WoW devs at listening to what players want. The WOW dev that said "You think you do, but you don't" and ended up being very wrong still makes me smile.
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By stuoobey 2021-11-28 15:05:33
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Personally, I found XIV boring, I played a bit on the original release, but my then PC couldn't handle it well, then I quit XI in early 2013 and signed up to ARR beta, played it up to leviathan, then quit.

It was while doing leviathan it hit me, the fact the fights were all the same, the mobs would do the same moves, you would dance around the screen, I just couldn't play it any more (I ended up back on XI). I can't comment on how the game is now, as I never went back....

Back to the original topic, what made XI good, for me, it was the people, if you had a good linkshell, which I was fortunate with, it made the game, you were all in it together. silly things come to mind, like getting together for swift belt runs, O hats and that was before end game events. You'd do 20 dyna runs, not get a drop, but still be happy, as someone else would get what they wanted...

It took over a year to get my homam legs, but boy, was I happy when I did, no other game compares, Ares body, askar head, beating the cop airship fight, beating JoL for the first time, I remember all that, I have no comparable memories of xiv, just being bored.
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By Odin.Creaucent 2021-11-28 15:29:22
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Mattelot said: »
Odin.Creaucent said: »
people who obviously haven't got very far try to bash it

I defended XIV on the WoW forums not long ago when some guy gave his "review" of the game, talking about how "terrible" it was after he played it for a whole 2 whopping days. Never even unlocked his first job stone or did anything relevant.

I think I've seen it I've even given WoW more time than that and I really don't like WoWs art style. The faster GCD and far less actions makes the combat fairy repetitive on most jobs and if you don't like the job you picked you needed to make another character.
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By Draylo 2021-11-28 16:26:13
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To me it will always be the direct cause to XIs decline, so I will probably always hate it. However, after having tried it extensively, I can also say the gameplay is not that fun to me.
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By stuoobey 2021-11-28 16:33:32
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The funny thing is, xiv and xi were meant to be linked, at the start you had a joint subscription, but they stated they wanted people to be able to communicate between the two games. But after XIV bombed, they stole the best people from xi and made it an independent product....
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-28 17:43:05
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As much as I dislike XIV for many reasons, you have to admit that most XIV players are respectful to XI (these days!) and that Yoshi is continuing to support the game with continued patches.

I'm happy with the last patch, I'm liking the new story stuff and looking forward to the 20th.

Let's not get the thread closed for massive derailing.
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By Bahamut.Negan 2021-11-28 17:59:37
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RadialArcana said: »
As much as I dislike XIV for many reasons, you have to admit that most XIV players are respectful to XI (these days!) and that Yoshi is continuing to support the game with continued patches.

I'm happy with the last patch, I'm liking the new story stuff and looking forward to the 20th.

Let's not get the thread closed for massive derailing.
Well said sir.
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By Siren.Thisnameistaken 2021-11-28 22:45:54
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(I've not read the whole thread)

for me it's simple hotbar combat with it's cycle actions is incredibly boring, the delay system in FFXI is the best in the genre.
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By Zubis 2021-11-28 22:46:04
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llAKs0nll said: »
There is no reason for them to exist in FFXIV other than via Dev Discussions claiming 11 connecting to 14.

It’s not a coincidence that Taru & Mithras exist in 14. I know why they do.

That has nothing to do with leaving a Mog House in 11 and moving to 14. FF11 races were used in FF14 explicitly to drive people to quit 11 and move to 14.

https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=120

Quote:
Tanaka: Back then, household gaming consoles lasted about five years before they were succeeded by the next generation.

Rather than pouring manpower and budget into reconstructing a world that players had already thoroughly experienced, we felt that those resources would be better spent creating a new game with its own world and adventures.

We surmised that FFXI players would be emotionally attached to their player characters, so development of FINAL FANTASY XIV (FFXIV) began with design options for characters which resembled the player characters in FFXI.

Tanaka: we hadn’t expected to keep going even after the hardware moved on to the next generation.

FFXI was supposed to last five years and die.
The PC version kept it going - and they acknowledge in the above website that this was an oversight.
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By Draylo 2021-11-29 00:15:28
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RadialArcana said: »
As much as I dislike XIV for many reasons, you have to admit that most XIV players are respectful to XI (these days!) and that Yoshi is continuing to support the game with continued patches.

I'm happy with the last patch, I'm liking the new story stuff and looking forward to the 20th.

Let's not get the thread closed for massive derailing.

Nah I don't have to admit that, most of them think we are old men waving our canes and telling the kiddies to get off our lawn. I couldn't care less what XIV only players think, I am going to give my honest opinion when it comes up. I am happy with the stuff recently but I feel we deserve more attention given we are paying full sub, just gets tiring hearing "you should be thankful this game should have been shut down already." At the least I can keep bothering them.
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By Afania 2021-11-29 04:56:41
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Draylo said: »
To me it will always be the direct cause to XIs decline,

Really? XI's population (at least the NA pop) has been increasing from what I've seen. Asura population went from 1200 in 2016 to 4000, Bahamut went from 400 in 2017 to more than 1200. It's probably more than that now, I haven't check for at least 1 year.

Many new players these days actually came from XIV.

If there's really any reason that FFXI declined, it's probably SE's bad decision to nerf REMA requirement many years ago, which caused many people rage quit at that time and never invested their time as much since then. Population took a hit after the requirement nerf.

Most current gen players aren't going to play FFXI if they are not into this kind of game anyways. If FFXIV doesn't exist they'll either play WoW or Genshin Impact.
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By Chaplin 2021-11-29 05:52:48
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People transferring servers due to markets and RMT does not mean the game was at an incline. Asura and Bahamut are two of the biggest RMT servers we have.
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By alzeerffxi 2021-11-29 06:15:38
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Afania said: »
Draylo said: »
To me it will always be the direct cause to XIs decline,

Really? XI's population (at least the NA pop) has been increasing from what I've seen. Asura population went from 1200 in 2016 to 4000, Bahamut went from 400 in 2017 to more than 1200. It's probably more than that now, I haven't check for at least 1 year.

Many new players these days actually came from XIV.

If there's really any reason that FFXI declined, it's probably SE's bad decision to nerf REMA requirement many years ago, which caused many people rage quit at that time and never invested their time as much since then. Population took a hit after the requirement nerf.

Most current gen players aren't going to play FFXI if they are not into this kind of game anyways. If FFXIV doesn't exist they'll either play WoW or Genshin Impact.

To be Fair the biggest problem every 1 had an empyrean too, the problem are those ppl who had a mythic and relics at the time that felt like a slap when they added adoulin weapons
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-29 08:14:12
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Bartels Taxonomy
I thought about this some more. FFXI does a fantastic job of catering to at least three of the four types of players:

Achievers >> Lots of satisfying, long-term goals. Some are gradual build-ups like REMA, while others are more rare and spur-of-the-moment. But nothing feels better than wearing that full set of purple around with three stars over your head.

Explorers >> The entire game leaves tons of room for gradual tweaks and optimization. A person can theorycraft for hours of new strategies, gear sets, job combinations, etc. Not to mention the world itself is rich with visual storytelling.

Socializers >> The game itself doesn't hold your hand, so the best way to get stuff done is to pass down your knowledge. A lot of the content requires high levels of communication and coordination with real players. It's a great bonding experience.

Killers >> Without noteworthy PvP, this is the least catered-to audience. But they can still get their kicks from messing with the economy, stealing that NM from under your nose, or clearing a zone of monsters that you were hoping to EXP from.

FFXI's original downside was its early years focused a little bit too much on the Socializers. The inclusion of Trusts was a massive help in catering to other audiences, though. It's just too bad too few people are willing to try it for the first time.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-29 08:21:09
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Lots of satisfying, long-term goals.

Agreed. And not knocking any other games... but XI to me gives the greatest feeling of satisfaction when you finally get something. Other MMOs, it's like "eh cool". I think it's because of how rewards are handed out so easily, or maybe it's knowing how rare some thing are.
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By Siren.Obysuca 2021-11-29 08:21:55
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Afania said: »

If there's really any reason that FFXI declined, it's probably SE's bad decision to nerf REMA requirement many years ago, which caused many people rage quit at that time and never invested their time as much since then. Population took a hit after the requirement nerf.


The two? times SE stated that there'd be no more content after a specific date, but then actually released stuff after said date (RoV, odyssey, TVR etc), hurt the population a bit too.
Quite a number of people I know quit XI (close to half the active people on my friends list at the time) when they saw that back in 2014? 2015?
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-29 08:46:34
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Bartels Taxonomy
I thought about this some more. FFXI does a fantastic job of catering to at least three of the four types of players:

Achievers >> Lots of satisfying, long-term goals. Some are gradual build-ups like REMA, while others are more rare and spur-of-the-moment. But nothing feels better than wearing that full set of purple around with three stars over your head.

Explorers >> The entire game leaves tons of room for gradual tweaks and optimization. A person can theorycraft for hours of new strategies, gear sets, job combinations, etc. Not to mention the world itself is rich with visual storytelling.

Socializers >> The game itself doesn't hold your hand, so the best way to get stuff done is to pass down your knowledge. A lot of the content requires high levels of communication and coordination with real players. It's a great bonding experience.

Killers >> Without noteworthy PvP, this is the least catered-to audience. But they can still get their kicks from messing with the economy, stealing that NM from under your nose, or clearing a zone of monsters that you were hoping to EXP from.

FFXI's original downside was its early years focused a little bit too much on the Socializers. The inclusion of Trusts was a massive help in catering to other audiences, though. It's just too bad too few people are willing to try it for the first time.

Note on killers, they aren't just PvP folks, it's folks who like to act on players instead of interact with players. That can be any form of dominance like "Look I won the parse" or "Look at how awesome my gear you peasants". In a PvE game like FFXI Killers and Achievers look very similar with the different being the reason they do what they do, Achievers do it for the trophy / wins, Killers do it to show off. An achiever would make that REMA / super gear even if there was nobody around to acknowledge it, a "killer" would not.

Like how many times here on the forums have we seen obnoxious folks say stuff like "Git Gud" or other condescending remarks? How many folks in game behave that that "Mad before Bad" and so forth?

Each of us has elements of all four archetypes, well like to achieve, socialize, explore and dominate/show off, just one tends to provide more enjoyment then the rest and different MMO designs cater to different subgroups.
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-29 08:55:23
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Explorers >> The entire game leaves tons of room for gradual tweaks and optimization. A person can theorycraft for hours of new strategies, gear sets, job combinations, etc. Not to mention the world itself is rich with visual storytelling.

Wanted this to be a separate post.

So my archetype is explorer, specifically I absolutely love to explore game mechanics and different play styles. I even made a H2H set for WAR/MNK just to explore how that felt. Right now I'm in the process of re-experiencing FFXI from scratch but with all the modern QoL enhancements since they were all released long after I hit cap with super gear.

Project Noob is currently capped at level 50 WAR, just beat Shadow Lord and got the first two RoV KI's. Now level 11 SAM in the dunes as I intent for it to be sub on WAR, also unlocked NIN for eventual leveling. Met another player who recently returned to the game and ran around doing XP / got access to SJ. So far it's been remarkably fun, I'm really excited to be doing CoP soon.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-29 08:56:52
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Note on killers, they aren't just PvP folks, it's folks who like to act on players instead of interact with players. That can be any form of dominance like "Look I won the parse" or "Look at how awesome my gear you peasants". In a PvE game like FFXI Killers and Achievers look very similar with the different being the reason they do what they do, Achievers do it for the trophy / wins, Killers do it to show off. An achiever would make that REMA / super gear even if there was nobody around to acknowledge it, a "killer" would not.
Oh yeah big time. Killers definitely exist in XI. But through its original design, not as much. PvP is usually a big draw for that crowd, and parsing isn't an inherent thing that the game provides. Plus, with the focus on party dynamic, having a reputation as that kind of player on a server will get you ostracized.
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-29 09:07:56
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Note on killers, they aren't just PvP folks, it's folks who like to act on players instead of interact with players. That can be any form of dominance like "Look I won the parse" or "Look at how awesome my gear you peasants". In a PvE game like FFXI Killers and Achievers look very similar with the different being the reason they do what they do, Achievers do it for the trophy / wins, Killers do it to show off. An achiever would make that REMA / super gear even if there was nobody around to acknowledge it, a "killer" would not.
Oh yeah big time. Killers definitely exist in XI. But through its original design, not as much. PvP is usually a big draw for that crowd, and parsing isn't an inherent thing that the game provides. Plus, with the focus on party dynamic, having a reputation as that kind of player on a server will get you ostracized.

And remember we are all a mix of those four basic archetypes, someone who not only likes to get all those trophy's but also wants others to know how awesome they are. It's easier to understand something when we deconstruct it to basic components, but humans are complex and frequently have multiple motivations for doing stuff. Those "parse ***" are frequently amongst the top players of a game precisely because they want to be seen as among the top players of that game. The aren't ostracized because they bring immense value to any skill based content. As cooperative as FFXI is, it's still about winning and that is something that killer archetypes are very good at doing.
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By Draylo 2021-11-29 09:23:27
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Afania said: »
Draylo said: »
To me it will always be the direct cause to XIs decline,

Really? XI's population (at least the NA pop) has been increasing from what I've seen. Asura population went from 1200 in 2016 to 4000, Bahamut went from 400 in 2017 to more than 1200. It's probably more than that now, I haven't check for at least 1 year.

Many new players these days actually came from XIV.

If there's really any reason that FFXI declined, it's probably SE's bad decision to nerf REMA requirement many years ago, which caused many people rage quit at that time and never invested their time as much since then. Population took a hit after the requirement nerf.

Most current gen players aren't going to play FFXI if they are not into this kind of game anyways. If FFXIV doesn't exist they'll either play WoW or Genshin Impact.

It really has been stagnating a while, and that is coming from someone who loves the game. The pop numbers always fluctuate but they are still not very high once you take out RMT and the countless people 6 boxing these days. Which is also helping into the stagnation as nobody teams up and people are just greedy now. SE is really to blame for it overall, they barely ever advertised this game even during its prime.

There are literally still people out there that think FFXI shut down after they said they were closing PS/Xbox support. Countless articles with clickbait titles "FFXI is finally closing its door" and you enter and its some dummy that jumped ship to XIV and somehow commands a popular blog site, and in a snippet they say the game is still on PC. Only one in particular stood out that did that, but I recall seeing that a handful of times.

Then you have that horrid announcement SE did saying they were literally ending support for the game and no new story or updates. It was so poorly done, I have to hope they changed their minds midway and not poor translation. That right there lost them a lot of subs, I personally know quite a few people that quit as a result of that and then got swept up by other games.

Really there are a lot of players that used to play XI that quit to go to XIV over the years. SE made that process a lot simpler and who can blame them seeing how much support and love it gets from the company. We have an official forum/twitter with tumbleweeds and they have 24/7 posts and updates. They have ToS revamps that erases strikes from accounts, they have even a cheaper sub cost...

SE really just couldn't care less if most of the players go from XI to XIV, its still money to them. Always a good laugh when some jaded XI player says "I'm done! I hate how they handled x or y in this game, I will go to XIV to show them how I vote with my sub!" It also doesn't help that so many pro XI players are people with nostalgia goggles bolted on their heads and only care for the "old XI" and not the current one continuing. I know many hardcore old school XI players that forced themselves to like XIV because they felt XI was stagnating and could have the plug pulled, so they rather be on a popular game with all the bells and whistles.

This game always had a smaller but loyal playerbase, but I feel most of them are jaded by SE and how they've treated the game over the years.

I could do a whole dissection on how this road is going and having been a witness to it over the years. It's sad but also frustrating, they could have two successful MMOs with different playstyles, instead they choose to willingly let one stagnate and be on life support while the other flourishes.
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By Draylo 2021-11-29 09:24:52
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Note on killers, they aren't just PvP folks, it's folks who like to act on players instead of interact with players. That can be any form of dominance like "Look I won the parse" or "Look at how awesome my gear you peasants". In a PvE game like FFXI Killers and Achievers look very similar with the different being the reason they do what they do, Achievers do it for the trophy / wins, Killers do it to show off. An achiever would make that REMA / super gear even if there was nobody around to acknowledge it, a "killer" would not.
Oh yeah big time. Killers definitely exist in XI. But through its original design, not as much. PvP is usually a big draw for that crowd, and parsing isn't an inherent thing that the game provides. Plus, with the focus on party dynamic, having a reputation as that kind of player on a server will get you ostracized.

Abyssea really let those people unleash themselves lol. I remember so many people enjoying stealing NMs from wipes or causing wipes or outclaiming etc. I still never understood why so many nostalgia goggle 75 players hated Abyssea just because of trivializing EXP. It had all the elements they claimed to love lol.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-29 11:55:09
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Draylo said: »
enjoying stealing NMs from wipes or causing wipes

High tier old school drama cause.

So many people became infamous for doing dumb crap like that.
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By Valefor.Issacxx 2021-11-29 11:56:42
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Draylo said: »

Abyssea really let those people unleash themselves lol. I remember so many people enjoying stealing NMs from wipes or causing wipes or outclaiming etc. I still never understood why so many nostalgia goggle 75 players hated Abyssea just because of trivializing EXP. It had all the elements they claimed to love lol.

People like that hated Abyssea more so because they no longer just sat and botted HNM's for 3 hours/widescanned for the HNM. They also hated that their botted gear no longer was top gear and could be replaced with gear that had better stats with less time and effort put in.

I, for one, loved the release of Abyssea. No longer needed to do things in an entire 18 person alliance and a group of 3-5 could clear most things once you understood the strategy or had the cruor to unlock brews. It made the game easier to casually play which was great because it was around that time I began to focus on a career and didn't have the time to stay up til 3am to get an NM or not leave an EXP party because I would feel guilty.

Real life is what eventually brought me to stop playing FFXI back at the start 2015. Between work and not much keeping me interested in playing I decided my 12 year journey would finally end. It wouldn't be til the Pandemic brought me to working from home and a friend on Facebook posting about FFXI that I decided to come back and check it out back in April of 2020. I enjoy all the quality of life improvements the game offers now but I also know that when I go back to work in person again I'll most likely put the game back on the shelf so to speak. The game is quite enjoyable again but not enough time in the day to play it once I bring back commuting to and from work and being back in the actual office again.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-29 12:05:15
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Yeah. Abyssea really wasn't a bad thing, at least inherently. The only issue with it was that they didn't tweak anything outside of those zones to accommodate the increased level cap. So unlike with other content updates, Abyssea was the end-all be-all.

They've since fixed it and now there's plenty to do in all sorts of zones so we're back to that original variety.

Really, though. I think I can honestly say one of my favourite things about FFXI is that they did a great job keeping things relevant for a long time. Even with item levels, you can upgrade a lot of your old stuff so it's still relevant. Rather than bricking Relic Weapons with a raised level cap, they let you level them up along with you. Rather than replacing Mythic Weapons with the introduction of Empyrean Weapons, they made them different enough to both hold a place in one's inventory, etc.

It's not perfect, but it's still miles better than the common formula which just has you replace all of that stuff you spent years accumulating every time a new expansion drops.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-29 12:45:51
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Draylo said: »
It really has been stagnating a while, and that is coming from someone who loves the game. The pop numbers always fluctuate but they are still not very high once you take out RMT and the countless people 6 boxing these days. Which is also helping into the stagnation as nobody teams up and people are just greedy now. SE is really to blame for it overall, they barely ever advertised this game even during its prime.

You have an overly negative view of the game, and it's not accurate. People have been negative nancies for the past 15 years with "ffxi is dying!!1!!", we're still chugging along just fine.

FFXI is still very profitable, still has a very stable playerbase all paying to play it and still has developers working to give us new content, not because they have to but because they want to keep working on it. If they wanted to leave, they could be re-assigned to another game but they don't want to be.

There are tens of thousands of players who login every day and enjoy it from all across the world, still new players coming to try it all the time. The reason is because there is no MMO like XI and the only new ones being made are more casual games to appeal to the wider audience. There is nowhere else for people like us that want a more difficult MMO to goto and so it still has a place and that isn't going to change.

If you love the game, work towards helping it and pushing positivity. Help new and casual players, be positive about it online etc.

XIV and XI are so different now that they can both exist side by side just fine and indeed profits from both being successful helps the division as a whole, devs from XIV help with XI content on occasion when needed. The company and division producer has even stated his long term support for the game into the future.

We went from yearly budget allocations to the previous one being a 3 year budget allocation, that's good because it shows confidence at a company level.

I'm not sure what else you can even want at this point to see the game in a positive light, they are going out of their way to re-assure us that they want to maintain the game long term. We are getting good updates, they are adding new story content, new endgame, new ways to level up. They even canceled the mobile version, to maintain all attention on the PC version.

Ontop of that there are still people who put a lot of effort into the game as a community for free. We have people that make and update addons, that keep windower updated, update the wikis, developers recently put a lot of effort to fix shouts/bazaars here, that make youtube content about the game to promote it, that do all manner of things.

Also, it has to be said that most XIV players in general are far more supportive of XI than they used to be, or at least they aren't negative about it as used to be the case. Maybe the producer stating he runs both games helped with that? I don't know but I have noticed a big change over the past few years.

Looking pretty good to me.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-29 13:50:24
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I don't think Draylo is trying to be negative just to be negative. A lot of the things he says are not wrong.

Several in my LS are multiboxers. A couple who 5 box so they can have full parties all their own. Many others I know outside my LS are 2-3 boxers. That gives a flawed metric when it comes to population counts. So when someone says "We have 4000 people on!" It's probably more like half or less than half of that are actual players. Then you have to factor in how many are RMT.

Yes, the game is still profitable because even if those 6 toons are just 1 guy, it's still 6 subs. And the company does not develop based on number of players, it's number of subs because that's what affects the bottom line.

And yes, there are several who do positive things for the game and those people are valued.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-29 14:04:34
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Why does it matter if it's someone 6 boxing or 6 solo/casual players tho? Most endgame players won't be playing with them regardless.

All that matters is if it's profitable, and it is. Cause this is what keeps it running and keeps content being made for our clique of friends.
 Valefor.Issacxx
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By Valefor.Issacxx 2021-11-29 14:37:26
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I think the only time it would matter if someone is 6 boxing vs 6 solo/causal players is if the 6 boxer decides to quit, that's 6 subs gone vs if 1/6 solo players quit, there's still 5/6 subs left.
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