What's Good About FFXI.

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What's good about FFXI.
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 Asura.Aeonova
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By Asura.Aeonova 2021-11-27 14:36:53
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llAKs0nll said: »
FFXIV is the GOAT.

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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-27 14:41:37
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Mattelot said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
It's interesting to me that you claim to have done all of the hardest fights in XIV while subsequently being oblivious to the fact that the hardest mechanics in Savage and Ultimate fights don't have telegraphs.

Nobody jumps immediately into savage or ultimate. Once you've done the previous, the later are just "harder". They're by no means "strategic".

Except that's completely untrue, and what I'd label as a disingenuous minimization of the facts if I believed that you had ever done these things at all. There is no content in the game that prepares you for Ultimate fights, knowing the fights that the bosses were derived from does not give you any information on how to execute the mechanics in an ultimate outside of knowing what they're called.

For Savage, carry-over from Extremes/previous tiers of Savage raids only goes so far before you engage with either entirely new mechanics or new variants of the ones that you thought you had mastered. Optimization for each individual fight is almost entirely unique to that fight as well. It's like saying that I know how to fight Mboze just because I killed Yumcax, so I can just go in and get some R15 Bunzi ***rq.

It is real easy to sit there and claim that all you have to do is hit 1, 2, 3 and dodge the big glowing circles on the ground when you have no idea what you're actually talking about, though. I get it!

The dudes making six figures a year to raid in WoW coming over to XIV and not steamrolling it must just be complete brainlets with room temperature IQs who would never survive in XI, the thinking man's MMO.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-27 14:43:55
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lmfao

Buddy, you need to stop believing the first thing you read on Google. That was such a huge load of crap, I can't even... lol

I swear, XIV fanboys get funnier by the day. Thanks for the laugh.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-27 14:45:11
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"I don't have any actual fact to back up my made-up claims, let me sign off with a generic "haha, gotteem" and exit stage left"
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By Mattelot 2021-11-27 14:47:02
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Literally EVERY SINGLE FFXIV poster who comes to the WoW forums, spews some huge load of crap that they read from Google without having any real knowledge of the game and gets called out for it replies with that exact same response. You could set your watch to it.

You're way over your head.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-27 14:47:22
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Two in a row, going for the big combo.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-27 14:49:17
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Going through the thread, I think you're 4 in a row.

I don't get it. What possesses someone to go out of their way to deliberately humiliate themselves on a public forum? I never understood that.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-27 14:49:45
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You know, since you're so knowledgeable, and a grandmaster of the arts, you'd know that FFXIV has a publicly visible achievement system and some very, very visually distinct rewards for completing Ultimate fights. Surely it would be a simple task for someone as elite as you to show some evidence that you know what you're talking about.

Oh wait.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-27 14:52:15
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FF14 is made to be more casual to attract a different audience, it does what it does well enough and people like it.

As I posted in a previous post, both games are part of the same division so ultimately both games doing well is in the interest of Buisness Division 3.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-27 14:54:53
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RadialArcana said: »
FF14 is made to be more casual to attract a different audience, it does what it does well enough and people like it.

Correct.

Gamers today are a lot more lazy. And that's not a huge bad thing. Games that require a lot of thought are becoming less and less popular.

I've played MTG for almost 27 years and it's very uncommon to find people who think and build original ideas. Just about everyone now-a-days copies their ideas from other people who have succeeded.

Back to the Future II likely called it. One day... "you mean you have to use your hands!?"
 Asura.Aeonova
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By Asura.Aeonova 2021-11-27 14:58:25
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By Mattelot 2021-11-27 15:03:24
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It never became a FFXIV vs WoW thread. Obysuca just asked about WoW difficulty and someone else mentioned how FFXIV's mechanics were taken from WoW, which isn't a huge secret. Nobody was bickering about the two together.
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 Lakshmi.Cesil
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By Lakshmi.Cesil 2021-11-27 15:16:06
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RadialArcana said: »
FF14 is made to be more casual to attract a different audience, it does what it does well enough and people like it.

As I posted in a previous post, both games are part of the same division so ultimately both games doing well is in the interest of Buisness Division 3.

Oddly enough I found FFXIV much more demanding of my time than FFXI. For FFXI, I log in if I want to do events that are fairly quick now (ambu, dynamis, omen, odyssey), my friends can beat the bosses in Odyssey in like...1-3 minutes. >.> Ambu, we just do 2-4 VD runs, that's a wrap and then dynamis, okay that one can be either quick or long depending on what we are doing. As for the new EXP that came out, yes that takes a while haha. Before that though was when I actually checked how much time I spent on each game.

Even when I started my alt on FFXI, it didn't nearly take as long as it does in FFXIV for me to bring my mule up to par with my current main (Got it a yagrush and everything). Tested that too haha.

For FFXIV, when I was actually raiding and playing seriously, I had to complete my tokens each week, if I missed a week, I'd miss out on an upgrade piece for my gear. I also had to do the raiding weekly, which took HOURS. Waiting for the group to log on, then actually defeating the raids for upgrades. When the raid is new, that is a lot of time spent doing them.

Once we got it down it went smoother, but I actually tested which game I ended up spending more time invested in when actually playing and getting stuff done. By far FFXIV took more of my time than FFXI. If I was going to go back to twitch to stream, I'd pick FFXIV because I spent way more time on that game doing everything haha. I did not find FFXIV casual at all, it was really time demanding (When I played the games to their fullest, doing end game content I mean, how I do endgame content in FFXI, and leveling alts)

Just my two cents, I am sure others have different experiences, but that is mine. :)
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 Ragnarok.Jessikah
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-27 16:33:19
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I'm with Cesil on this. The only way in which FFXI is really demanding for time is for long-term goals such as the upgrade path of a REMA. But none of it is demanded on the daily, nor does it require a time investment of 2-3 hours at a time.

Yes, early FFXI required a committed time slot of hours for the process of finding an experience party or for some big endgame run. But a lot of that has been gradually fixed, and only a few events still exist for that. And that's a healthy thing for an MMORPG to have.

Other games tend to have big lists of daily chores to take care of, that often feel like obligations because of their often juicy rewards. They demand you stay subscribed and spend minutes or even hours to max our your rewards. All of this leads to the feeling of the game being a job. I'm thankful FFXI doesn't do that.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2021-11-27 16:40:25
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To be fair, FFXI does have that. It just doesn't necessarily hard gate your progression for missing an omen, odyssey, Dyna-D, RoE objective, ambuscade rewards, monthly deed, etc., but you will be at a huge disadvantage if you don't do your daily/weekly/monthly tasks. When I want to no-life in XI I feel like I need to spend as much or more time doing all of my daily entries, or capping ambu rewards every month, or doing my RoE busywork.

On the flipside, unless you want to be on the bleeding edge, you aren't compelled to cap your tomes every week in XIV, either. The catchup mechanics that roll out over the course of the 6 months leading from tier to tier ensure that you can casually get up to the next tier over time if you decide to take it slower.

I'd consider the two similar, personally.
 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2021-11-27 16:56:27
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Wow, the anti-FFXIV stupidity is real..

Honestly, I should just listen to this:

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I swore off engaging with people like you on here because it is often pointless

With that being said.. *Deep breath*

Breaking down FFXIV into "smash 1,2,3 and avoid telegraphs" is like saying "Use Savage Blade in your TP set until the boss is dead".

There's a lot of nuance to FFXIV that isn't in the itemization, it's in understanding the fight mechanics and understanding how to optimize for that fight to maximize your DPS. Every job in XIV has a different optimized rotation that you have to mesh into the boss fight timeline for maximum efficiency. This requires a player to understand the fight through and through and adjust their rotation to suit the fight for maximum damage. I.E., Paladin opening with their magic rotation first instead of their physical rotation can allow them to have their movement tech up during heavy mechanical portions of the fight so they don't lose a significant chunk of their DPS. AST holding and coordinating their buffs with NIN's Trick Attacks can optimize raid DPS - and then by extension holding their raid buffs if the boss is about to go invulnerable. A lot of the optimization in XIV is nuanced into the boss fights themselves and require a lot of time to get intimate with the fight to understand it - it's not too different from pouring hours into optimizing your XI gear sets except your optimizing your actions for the individual fight mechanics.

In the end, it's clear XI and XIV are built to be incredibly different games and comparing the two is really stupid since each is designed with a different player base in mind.
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By Chaplin 2021-11-27 17:10:10
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Why is it always people who never really accomplished much or bought their accounts who are so pro 14? Interesting correlation.
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 Asura.Skyekitty
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By Asura.Skyekitty 2021-11-27 17:23:37
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I think the real issue with settling this debate is that from either side, anything that can be considered "strategic", to use that word from previous posts, can be watered down into a simple statement, then argued.

FFXI: Savage Blade till win.
FFXIV: Key Mash and avoid Red Lines.

Doesn't matter how much more complicated or detailed you want to get into proof of strategy on either game. Someone will reduce it down to simple statements and use that as a counter argument.

Long cat is long because not short.
Why use lot word when few word do trick?

What's good about FFXI is probably the memories and nostalgia that brings you (me) back to the game. I need that sweet hit of memories for my feel good moments. I "grew up" with the game and because it is still true to its roots (not like WOW for example) I get that hit every time I resub after taking a break and I LOVE that.

I wish the game was as popular as it was back in Aht Urghan days, but I'll settle with it still being alive and kicking.
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 Asura.Skyekitty
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By Asura.Skyekitty 2021-11-27 17:25:35
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That being said, I am still camping Bugbear Strongman for 8 hours for my last kill and it hasn't popped. Another lovely nugget FFXI has to offer. Sweet pain!
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 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2021-11-27 18:04:10
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Asura.Skyekitty said: »
I think the real issue with settling this debate is that from either side, anything that can be considered "strategic", to use that word from previous posts, can be watered down into a simple statement, then argued.

FFXI: Savage Blade till win.
FFXIV: Key Mash and avoid Red Lines.

Doesn't matter how much more complicated or detailed you want to get into proof of strategy on either game. Someone will reduce it down to simple statements and use that as a counter argument.

Long cat is long because not short.
Why use lot word when few word do trick?

That is indeed a problem and is extremely disingenuous to the game in question when it is simplified to that extreme. And this is true to both FFXIV and FFXI.

In the end, probably be best to push the "hate FFXIV train" off the tracks and put the "love FFXI train" back onto the tracks, like you are already doing.

I miss doing Legion, despite how dumb the content was at the time, lol. It was fun being a solo WHM in an 18-man content. The hectic-ness of it was nice, but now I definitely could not keep up with anything like that.
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 Ragnarok.Jessikah
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-27 18:22:39
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XI and XIV are both simple and complicated in their own ways. That's why players of both games tend to think the other is braindead.

For example, FFXI simplifies white damage into autoattacks rather than using GCDs. Yet it complicates the healing process by having status ailments and forcing a healer to choose between (for example) using Silena or Cure in a split second.

My preference is for the things which XI simplifies and complicates, but that is an entirely subjective opinion.

I can think of more reasons that I don't like XIV, but to say it is "braindead" is not an objective fact. Not to mention that is not relevant to this discussion.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-27 18:23:20
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Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
In the end, probably be best to push the "hate FFXIV train" off the tracks and put the "love FFXI train" back onto the tracks, like you are already doing.

Well on this note. I just made an new character on my main account and have been leveling them as thought I was a new player. So far it's been a blast, am at level 32 and now going to Kahzam for more XP :D.
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By Draylo 2021-11-27 19:06:36
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XIV is garbage. You are on a forum primarily for XI, stop expecting people to like that game here or demand its respected, especially since it's the direct reason for this games decline.
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By Draylo 2021-11-27 19:15:00
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Chaplin said: »
Why is it always people who never really accomplished much or bought their accounts who are so pro 14? Interesting correlation.

Or people who got bored with XI or jaded due to some reason, they want to force themselves to love that game. There is probably a reason you force yourself to like that. As time goes on and XI gets less and less support from the company, you'll just see more people bored or jaded that will go to XIV and force themselves to like it and think its the next coming of christ or something. Why didn't all of them play WoW from the start if it was such incredible gameplay? That is exactly what they were playing for ages, I still remember all the XI players scoffing at WoW and its gameplay all over these forums, and now that it has a FF skin with emotes and shop items, its somehow accepted.

Also that Ultimate/Savage crap is something like 1% of the population even attempts and finishes. It is completely unfun, where you are forced to memorize entire fight scripts and bash your head against the wall while all 8 people complete it. If that is your idea of fun, then sure go for it. To me, having to memorize all that crap and then hope the other 7 people do too as you spend hours dying over and over to the mechanics until it clicks, too much. I can't think of one FF game that functions in that way.
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 Ragnarok.Jessikah
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-27 20:10:49
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Draylo said: »
You are on a forum primarily for XI, stop expecting people to like that game here or demand its respect
It's also just straight-up hard to say what makes FFXI a good game without comparing it to other games in the genre. And given that WoW began a formula that nearly every MMORPG has followed since, (including XIV) that's what we're inevitably going to compare it against.

I've said it before, but a lot of what's being said in this topic is against the common formula, and not necessarily XIV. If the XIV fans get defensive over it, it's their own admission that the complaints are a part of that game.

Granted, some people are using this thread as means to just bash the crap out of XIV. Regardless, that's where Draylo's comment weighs in. I'm sure most of us have tried XIV at this point. A lot of us are here specifically because we prefer XI. If anyone comes in with anti-XI comments, it's a fair assumption that it will be met in kind...
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2021-11-27 20:18:39
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Draylo said: »
XIV is garbage. You are on a forum primarily for XI, stop expecting people to like that game here or demand its respected, especially since it's the direct reason for this games decline.

Draylo said: »
Chaplin said: »
Why is it always people who never really accomplished much or bought their accounts who are so pro 14? Interesting correlation.

Or people who got bored with XI or jaded due to some reason, they want to force themselves to love that game. There is probably a reason you force yourself to like that. As time goes on and XI gets less and less support from the company, you'll just see more people bored or jaded that will go to XIV and force themselves to like it and think its the next coming of christ or something. Why didn't all of them play WoW from the start if it was such incredible gameplay? That is exactly what they were playing for ages, I still remember all the XI players scoffing at WoW and its gameplay all over these forums, and now that it has a FF skin with emotes and shop items, its somehow accepted.

Also that Ultimate/Savage crap is something like 1% of the population even attempts and finishes. It is completely unfun, where you are forced to memorize entire fight scripts and bash your head against the wall while all 8 people complete it. If that is your idea of fun, then sure go for it. To me, having to memorize all that crap and then hope the other 7 people do too as you spend hours dying over and over to the mechanics until it clicks, too much. I can't think of one FF game that functions in that way.

No one is really demanding for FFXIV to be respected. There is a discussion about stop being ignorant about how XIV works because it has it's own level of complexity that directly contrasts FFXI complexity. It's not that different from asking for the XIV fans to stop being ignorant on how XI works as a whole either.

Different strokes for different folks. Everyone has their opinion on things. We can have a mature discussion without resorting to name calling or disrespectful banter.

But hey, I'll bite again too. I'm not going to speak to what you define as "fun" and "unfun" as that is entirely subjective and I find there are fun aspects to both XI and XIV.

I will say that claiming only 1% of the population attempts Savage/Ultimate content is faculty wrong and here's the evidence:

Here are the clear rates for Savage content this tier as of July, 2021



The right most column of this table indicates the total % of that server's population that has cleared the final tier of Savage. The 4th column indicates the total active players on the server by parsing the Lodestone for those who have a specific mount or minion (I believe). The second right most column indicates the total number of players who cleared the final tier of Savage, based on the amount of people who have the mount from that fight.

That's clearly over 1%

Ultimate Clear Rates for The Epic of Alexander as of July 5th, 2021:



Data is parsed from the number of clears reported on FFLogs and compared to the active number of players listed in the previous table.

That's also clearly over 1%

===

Before you go "but that's clearly not accurate data", I'd be curious if anyone has an accurate and meaningful way of measuring the amount of content players have cleared the hardest XI content. FFXIAH lists 89,923 active players currently. I'd imagine that % to be higher than Savage / Ultimate clears on XIV because only the really dedicated players are still left on XI. It would be a fun comparison to make for discussion.

Anyway, I think it's only proper that S-E pushes their attention and focus onto XIV and not XI. It sucks, but XI as a game is not appealing to how the gamer market has shifted. There are a few new generations of gamers now and XI is almost a 20 year old game that was marketed and designed with a significantly different market. It makes good business sense to focus more attention on the game that will generally see a higher return on investment.

I also personally attribute XIV 1.0's failure to the fact that S-E tried to push XI 2.0 in the form of XIV 1.0 and it failed miserably. After playing XIV 1.0 myself, I basically said "why the heck do I want to play something that tries to be like FFXI when I can just play FFXI?" and then promptly moved back to XI and continued to play XI instead. I think at that point, S-E recognized they couldn't really have two similar versions of a MMO and be successful as they would just be gouging their own game for player - so they shifted to a game play style that was more appealing to the current market and now we have XIV as we currently do.

And before anyone tries to claim that I haven't accomplished anything on XI - I completed Legion and Delve while it was relevant. I wrote an entire guide on how to play WHM on XI back when I was active. And I also cleared the most recent Savage tier in FFXIV as well. I'm pretty certain I can speak on good authority about the pros and cons of both games.

Anyway, I also apologize for heavily derailing this thread.
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By Draylo 2021-11-27 20:25:02
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Yeah yet if that was the case they should have created every game to be like candy crush, fortnite and LoL. Yet they didn't and they see artistic value in different styles of games or remastering older projects. They don't have to necessarily create or support only the games that are going to make them money and they've shown multiple times that it isn't their sole objective given how many remasters of games they've done that have generally mediocre sales.

Also keep in mind your precious XIV is almost 12 years old, its no youngling. They are actively gouging one of their previous most profitable MMO and doing so in favor of supporting XIV. I can't count how many ads and money that has been thrown at that game, it would be a surprise if it didn't do well given how much they've invested. If only they invested 1% of that back into XI.
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By Chaplin 2021-11-27 20:31:24
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Isn’t FFlogs that site there was a big thing on their forums about people reporting false information on?
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-27 20:39:55
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Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
I also personally attribute XIV 1.0's failure to the fact that S-E tried to push XI 2.0 in the form of XIV 1.0 and it failed miserably. After playing XIV 1.0 myself, I basically said "why the heck do I want to play something that tries to be like FFXI when I can just play FFXI?" and then promptly moved back to XI and continued to play XI instead. I think at that point, S-E recognized they couldn't really have two similar versions of a MMO and be successful as they would just be gouging their own game for player - so they shifted to a game play style that was more appealing to the current market and now we have XIV as we currently do
I've heard this before. XIV 1.0 didn't fail because it tried to be XI-2, XIV 1.0 failed because it was a hot pile of steaming garbage. It had no idea what made a good game good. In fact, I kept notes from just my few hours playing it extremely early on.

To summarize my initial notes:
The UI was awful (it was hard to read and didn't update in real-time). There was no central marketplace (Auction House). There existed no way at all to look for a party. Outdoor zones had nothing to do, and like 1 monster per square mile (I wrote down "PC's literally camp everyday monsters like they were NMs"). Soloing was anywhere between 2x to 5x faster than partying because of the experience systems in place. Archers couldn't reload in the middle of combat, and running out of ammo guaranteed death. The game was broken - I had glitches listed as unable to attack or put your weapon away, you wouldn't revive if you chose to return to your home point while KOed. The chat log was static. Character creation was even more limited than XI. Camera was poorly designed. Players were penalized for playing over time by gradually lowering earned experience points to as low as 0, only gradually returning to normal while logged-out.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I know people who say that XIV sucked because it had TP, and because XI has TP as a resource, that must mean that it sucks as well. No. XIV just didn't know how to do TP. It included TP as an execution requirement in addition to having GCDs, which was a really, really stupid way to do it. But because the game got better as a result of removing TP, a lot of people think XI is just "behind the times" or some crap. It's really annoying.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-27 20:58:50
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Asura.Aeonova said: »

It’s inevitable comparing 11 to 14 since what’s Good about FFXI is that FFXI is NOT WoW while 14 is
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