The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

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The Odyssey - || Strategy and Discussion ||
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 Asura.Toralin
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By Asura.Toralin 2023-03-17 14:31:19
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Man this dude is just trolling us at this point.

We get screwed every run.
We had a run last night where we got atk down on KI 1 (still managed to get it to 55%, so close to 54).

He opened KI2 with macc down, still managed decent Kaustras.... put up matk down at 40%... of course the cor gets a reset on that run.... 20%, last Kaustra hit for 11k.

I totally feel your pain, the funny thing is you will have the fight down to a science from doing it so many times. and then when the cards do fall in your favor you will crush him with plenty of time on the clock.

We used alot of Atlantas repast on this fight. And if the WC was unsuccesful and we were 100% sure we couldnt win, we would warp out to save time and make sure our food was intact for KI1 of the next battle.

After 3-4 days we were never really at risk for dying on KI2, so it was more of just a time save to exit, reset and go again
 Asura.Jokes
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By Asura.Jokes 2023-03-17 15:30:54
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Man this dude is just trolling us at this point.

We get screwed every run.
We had a run last night where we got atk down on KI 1 (still managed to get it to 55%, so close to 54).

He opened KI2 with macc down, still managed decent Kaustras.... put up matk down at 40%... of course the cor gets a reset on that run.... 20%, last Kaustra hit for 11k.

All round terrible fight. Fake difficulty. By the time we cleared it we were more relieved than happy I think.

You will get it eventually. The problem is - once you do, and someone asks if you could help them clear it. Would you? lol. potentially 30+ 2KI runs to clear it again.

Honestly it would be better for the game if it got nerfed.

Edit: at some point a group will come along and 1/1 it “don’t know what the fuss was all about”.
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By Taint 2023-03-17 15:55:49
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The first Asura clear was like that. Group cleared super fast after the JP group. I think Tora said it earlier its all RNG once you have the strat down, some will go 1/1 others 1/300 doing the same thing.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2023-03-18 03:56:09
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Honestly despite the biggest difficulty by far being the rng, I wouldn't go as far as to say the rest of the strat is "easy".
Requires a lot of coordination and very little space for errors and lotsa jobs with close to bis gear.

So yeah, too early now of course, but I think at least a small nerf is due.
To Bumba itself but in general to T3s as well I'd dare to say.
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By Asura.Bippin 2023-03-18 11:41:15
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Asura.Sechs said: »
So yeah, too early now if course, but I think at least a small nerf is due.
To Bumba itself but in general to T3s as well I'd dare to say.
The T3s don't need a nerf at all.

Bumba is basically all luck at this point and that is why changing it would make sense. T3s don't at all involve the same amount of luck.

Maybe someone will come with a better idea for clearing bumba
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-03-18 12:26:21
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Honestly despite the biggest difficulty by far being the rng, I wouldn't go as far as to say the rest of the strat is "easy".
Requires a lot of coordination and very little space for errors and lotsa jobs with close to bis gear.

So yeah, too early now if course, but I think at least a small nerf is due.
To Bumba itself but in general to T3s as well I'd dare to say.

The T3's are all RNGJesus once someone nails down the strat, and that's not really a good thing. I agree they do need a tweak, not some massive "lolezmode naked" nerf, but having their innate DT toned down or just reduce the massive regen off the 2nd add would greatly reduce the requirement for the stars to line up.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2023-03-18 12:36:41
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Asura.Bippin said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
So yeah, too early now if course, but I think at least a small nerf is due.
To Bumba itself but in general to T3s as well I'd dare to say.
The T3s don't need a nerf at all.
I strongly disagree but respect your opinion.


Quote:
T3s don't at all involve the same amount of luck.
Some do, to a lesser extent of course.
Which is exactly why so many of the very few groups in the world who completed them, had to struggle for a long time.

I'm not saying they have to make them trivial, but I could see a small nerf, when new content is released maybe.
Which supposedly won't be too far ahead, we might get a new one by may/june already.
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By Asura.Bippin 2023-03-18 12:55:26
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Asura.Saevel said: »
The T3's are all RNGJesus once someone nails down the strat, and that's not really a good thing.
I would strongly disagree but okay.

The only real bad luck you can get is double attack down or double macc down on some T3s that really become a problem.

PUGs clear T3s on Asura...

Edit: Nothing other then bumba requires a WC or a single bad aura can kill the run in my experience.
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-03-18 13:04:57
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Asura.Bippin said: »
PUGs clear T3s on Asura...

No they don't, Pugs are not clearing V25's on Asura... some are attempting but fail. The closest I've seen is a static that needed an Idris GEO for Kalunga or Bee and shouted to pick one up.
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By Asura.Bippin 2023-03-18 13:10:45
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Asura.Saevel said: »
No they don't, Pugs are not clearing V25's on Asura... some are attempting but fail.
I have cleared V25s with PUGs and I got a buddy that has done them all in PUGs but okay.

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean no one else can...
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By macsdf1 2023-03-18 13:30:23
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Asura.Bippin said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
No they don't, Pugs are not clearing V25's on Asura... some are attempting but fail.
I have cleared V25s with PUGs and I got a buddy that has done them all in PUGs but okay.

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean no one else can...

When you say pug, are you saying your shouting for 5 other random players and winning? Well actually, are you talking about t3 and bumba, or t1-t2 ***?
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By Asura.Bippin 2023-03-18 13:33:34
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macsdf1 said: »
When you say pug, are you saying your shouting for 5 other random players and winning? Well actually, are you talking about t3 and bumba, or t1-t2 ***?
T3s but of course tons of people clear T1-T2 this way.

And yes 6 random people from yell...

Does this mean every PUG clears V25 T3s of course not, do I think this is the best way to clear? No.

But my point was I don't think T3s need a nerf. If you do that's okay. Just sharing my opinion just as others did.

I am wondering if people saying they need a nerf, have you actually cleared T3s?
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By macsdf1 2023-03-18 14:04:14
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Asura.Bippin said: »
macsdf1 said: »
When you say pug, are you saying your shouting for 5 other random players and winning? Well actually, are you talking about t3 and bumba, or t1-t2 ***?
T3s but of course tons of people clear T1-T2 this way.

And yes 6 random people from yell...

Does this mean every PUG clears V25 T3s of course not, do I think this is the best way to clear? No.

But my point was I don't think T3s need a nerf. If you do that's okay. Just sharing my opinion just as others did.

I am wondering if people saying they need a nerf, have you actually cleared T3s?

I find it really hard to believe. Do you get on discord? How many tries does it take. All my t3 wins so far have taken many many tries with the same team, all on discord but one. But who knows maybe asura is filled with fully geared highly skilled and experienced people with tons of segments just waiting for the right opportunity to appear.

But my question is, if you cleared it why not make a static with the same people.
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By Asura.Sechs 2023-03-18 14:09:51
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macsdf1 said: »
Asura.Bippin said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
No they don't, Pugs are not clearing V25's on Asura... some are attempting but fail.
I have cleared V25s with PUGs and I got a buddy that has done them all in PUGs but okay.

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean no one else can...

When you say pug, are you saying your shouting for 5 other random players and winning? Well actually, are you talking about t3 and bumba, or t1-t2 ***?
T1s are super easy c'mon.
T2s are uhm well, they require more preparation, a bit of luck to compensate for bad players/skills/gear, but they're overall sorta doable in PUGs I'd say.

I've seen T3s been done with PUGs on asura, but it wasn't a complete pug and for 1 group that somehow manages to get a win, there's 900000 other groups that fail miserably.

Despite a really small bunch of people being able to PUG some T3s (the "easy" ones like Xevioso maybe) I wouldn't say that, in general, they're PUG material.

Especially stuff like Arebati or Mboze.
And honestly even Ongo if you get bad luck with aura and/or with WC it's a high risk of timeout, but this is no surprise since competent people over these boards whined aplenty about timing out even on V20, so...
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By Asura.Bippin 2023-03-18 14:20:50
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macsdf1 said: »
Do you get on discord?
I didn't when I did a few T3s, I know some that do.

macsdf1 said: »
How many tries does it take.
One PUG I did took 3 tries for bee and another about 5 for trex. I also joined other groups that never cleared at all.

macsdf1 said: »
But my question is, if you cleared it why not make a static with the same people.
Number of reasons:
People may not have consistent play time
No idea what jobs other people have for other NMs
May mostly be after RP.
For me personally I have groups to do NMs with

Asura.Sechs said: »
Despite a really small bunch of people being able to PUG some T3s (the "easy" ones like Xevioso maybe) I wouldn't say that, in general, they're PUG material.
Like I said before its not how I would recommend people clear them just that groups have done it.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2023-03-18 15:01:30
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For me, I don't know whether the T3s need a nerf or not, but for each, I don't feel there is a ton of RNG needed to win, with the exception of Ngai's frikken 1 hit kills. Even ongo, once we got good at the cadence, 2 of our 3 wins were with non-perfect conditions.

2/3 of the wins did not get a WC reset. 1 of the three wins had bad aura. Yes, RNG can still screw you if you get 2 bad auras, but at the end, we felt like we could beat it, even if things didn't go perfectly.

Bumba is a different story, but neither here nor there.

Edit: tldr, I feel like on T3s skill can overcome bad RNG to an extent on all of them.
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2023-03-18 15:11:12
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Asura.Jokes said: »
All round terrible fight. Fake difficulty.

I'd be curious to understand what you would consider to constitute "real" difficulty in a game like this. I think it's important to separate the encounter design from the prevailing strategy that the community has chosen to use for it. It's true that currently, the only known winnable strategy does require a WC reset, and perhaps time will tell us that the Kaustra method is the only possible way to beat it, but we don't know that at this point, so if you're deeming the fight as "fake difficulty" because the Kaustra strat requires a WC reset, that statement may be a bit premature.

I personally think that the encounter is close to having been designed well. At a high level, what it seems that they aimed to do was create an encounter which:
1) Promotes a variety of WS's (via the WS resistance) and a careful choice of those WS's (so as to not heal him with the wrong SC),
2) Promotes a variety of damage types (via the damage type SDT that builds up during fetter modes),
3) Promotes the development of a plan for quickly identifying the proc mechanic and executing on that proc, which requires timely group coordination.

These are all positive aspects of the encounter IMO, and conceptually would have made it well-designed, but they missed the mark in 2 ways: 1) Denounce, as we understand it, is broken, and 2) The fight is overtuned; even if Denounce wasn't broken, the frequency of fetter modes would still need to be toned down in my view. If they were to "fix" Denounce and reduce the frequency of fetter modes, this would make for a pretty high-quality encounter, IMO.
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2023-03-18 15:28:49
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
Asura.Jokes said: »
All round terrible fight. Fake difficulty.

I'd be curious to understand what you would consider to constitute "real" difficulty in a game like this. I think it's important to separate the encounter design from the prevailing strategy that the community has chosen to use for it. It's true that currently, the only known winnable strategy does require a WC reset, and perhaps time will tell us that the Kaustra method is the only possible way to beat it, but we don't know that at this point, so if you're deeming the fight as "fake difficulty" because the Kaustra strat requires a WC reset, that statement may be a bit premature.

I personally think that the encounter is close to having been designed well. At a high level, what it seems that they aimed to do was create an encounter which:
1) Promotes a variety of WS's (via the WS resistance),
2) Promotes a variety of damage types (via the damage type SDT that builds up during fetter modes),
3) Promotes the development of a plan for quickly identifying the proc mechanic and executing on that proc, which requires timely group coordination.

These are all positive aspects of the encounter IMO, and conceptually would have made it well-designed, but they missed the mark in 2 ways: 1) Denounce, as we understand it, is broken, and 2) The fight is overtuned. Even if Denounce wasn't broken, the frequency of fetter modes would still need to be toned down in my view. If they were to "fix" Denounce and reduce the frequency of fetter modes, this would make for a pretty high-quality encounter, IMO.

For me its about the fight, the only known way to beat the fight is literally a cheese strategy of get the best kaustras you can and watch it die. It's literally got mechanics to the fight that punish you for trying to do anything in between the kaustra windows other than watch it's HP tick down.

One resist (which you can't control) and you lose.
One bad aura and you lose.
Don't get a Wild Card and you lose.

You can't keep going after kaustra's run out, after about 3rd skill chain and your magic burst damage is so low you can't overcome the regen.

You can likely get it down if you get it to about 10% with skillchains, but the most we've taken off before uber DT sets in is about 12%.

It's not fun, it's boring. A well designed fight is one that you can win even if you don't don't have the stars in perfect alignment as long as you have the skill to extend or improve your chances. No amount of skill can win this fight, only luck.
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2023-03-18 15:38:59
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
I think it's important to separate the encounter design from the prevailing strategy that the community has chosen to use for it. It's true that currently, the only known winnable strategy does require a WC reset, and perhaps time will tell us that the Kaustra method is the only possible way to beat it, but we don't know that at this point
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2023-03-18 15:55:50
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You're assuming that the Kaustra strat will, for now and forever, be the only discovered viable strategy to kill Bumba and you're taking complaints specifically tied to the Kaustra strat and projecting them onto the encounter as a whole. FWIW, I agree that the fight needs to be looked at and tweaked (but for different reasons than you), and I've mentioned the specific aspects of the fight that I think should be in scope for that because I think the conversation needs to be navigated a bit more deeply than "this one particular strategy requires too much luck, therefore the fight is trash".
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By Asura.Geriond 2023-03-18 16:15:25
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Denounce's gimmick is that it does more damage the more people that it hits, so SE might have intended for people to get the heck out of dodge before each aura, let 1 or 2 people fish for aura type and trigger a WS, then trigger the aura using low TP feed methods.
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-03-18 16:17:33
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I've seen T3s been done with PUGs on asura, but it wasn't a complete pug and for 1 group that somehow manages to get a win, there's 900000 other groups that fail miserably.

The wins are never complete PUGs, it's a handful of experienced core players who then "fill in" the easier slots, usually the GEO and maybe the COR. It's all about probabilities of success, the more unfavorable things stacked against you the lower the chance of a victory, which is only compounded by the fights built in "you lose" buttons. Just because Bumba V25 just has the most "you lose" buttons doesn't mean the other T3 V25's don't also have them. You can approach the fight with a perfect setup, everyone does their exact jobs and push's all the right buttons, and still the boss wins by pressing it's "you fail" button.
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-03-18 16:24:52
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Denounce's gimmick is that it does more damage the more people that it hits, so SE might have intended for people to get the heck out of dodge before each aura, let 1 or 2 people fish for aura type and trigger a WS, then trigger the aura using low TP feed methods.

Denounce is currently bugged and has been since creation. During fetter mode Bumba will do two TP's back to back, if the first move is Denounce it will hit for more damage then is possibly survivable, if it's the second move then you can live through it. It's probably got something to do with TP scaling and the +damage buff from +Vengence levels. It's why every strategy to kill it revolves around killing it before it gets access to Denounce, or completely denying it all TP so it'll never use Denounce.
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2023-03-18 17:44:50
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
You're assuming that the Kaustra strat will, for now and forever, be the only discovered viable strategy to kill Bumba and you're taking complaints specifically tied to the Kaustra strat and projecting them onto the encounter as a whole. FWIW, I agree that the fight needs to be looked at and tweaked (but for different reasons than you), and I've mentioned the specific aspects of the fight that I think should be in scope for that because I think the conversation needs to be navigated a bit more deeply than "this one particular strategy requires too much luck, therefore the fight is trash".

No I'm not assuming that at all. I'm pointing out that the only viable strat so far relies on completely avoiding the mechanics of the fight because they are insta-death, and (to date) no one has found a way to even get close while playing a strat that doesn't "cheese" those mechanics.

Mboze is similar in that most strategies also circumvent the most punishing mechanics of the fight, but at least it's actually 15 minutes of doing something, not 3-5 30 second things, followed by 12 minutes of waiting.
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By macsdf1 2023-03-18 18:24:25
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
I've seen T3s been done with PUGs on asura, but it wasn't a complete pug and for 1 group that somehow manages to get a win, there's 900000 other groups that fail miserably.

The wins are never complete PUGs, it's a handful of experienced core players who then "fill in" the easier slots, usually the GEO and maybe the COR. It's all about probabilities of success, the more unfavorable things stacked against you the lower the chance of a victory, which is only compounded by the fights built in "you lose" buttons. Just because Bumba V25 just has the most "you lose" buttons doesn't mean the other T3 V25's don't also have them. You can approach the fight with a perfect setup, everyone does their exact jobs and push's all the right buttons, and still the boss wins by pressing it's "you fail" button.

Yeah that's what I figured, no way a true pug with one guy shouting for 5 random strangers gonna win.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2023-03-18 18:34:09
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macsdf1 said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
I've seen T3s been done with PUGs on asura, but it wasn't a complete pug and for 1 group that somehow manages to get a win, there's 900000 other groups that fail miserably.

The wins are never complete PUGs, it's a handful of experienced core players who then "fill in" the easier slots, usually the GEO and maybe the COR. It's all about probabilities of success, the more unfavorable things stacked against you the lower the chance of a victory, which is only compounded by the fights built in "you lose" buttons. Just because Bumba V25 just has the most "you lose" buttons doesn't mean the other T3 V25's don't also have them. You can approach the fight with a perfect setup, everyone does their exact jobs and push's all the right buttons, and still the boss wins by pressing it's "you fail" button.

Yeah that's what I figured, no way a true pug with one guy shouting for 5 random strangers gonna win.

I could see the 4 fights that are 1 KI fights being "winnable" with a pure pug. The fights mechanics aren't such that if you get lucky and have competent pickups, they wouldn't be too bad. Still would be rare.

The 2 that require 2 KIs to beat, would likely be pretty rare to win with pugs.
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By Asura.Bigtymer 2023-03-18 23:12:25
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
No I'm not assuming that at all. I'm pointing out that the only viable strat so far relies on completely avoiding the mechanics of the fight because they are insta-death, and (to date) no one has found a way to even get close while playing a strat that doesn't "cheese" those mechanics

Then we're talking about different things. I made a post arguing that the encounter shouldn't be dismissed as complete trash purely based off of the pain points of the one current strat, and you replied to that post with a list of pain points of the one current strat. I completely agree that those are certainly the pain points associated with fighting Bumba under this current strat - you've documented them well, but providing such a list wasn't a refutation of my point like you intended it to be.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2023-03-18 23:51:21
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Yes and no. I’m not actually trying to refute your points, because I feel they are pretty valid. In this case bad design comes down to bad implementation in my opinion. Sure those mechanics you listed sound good in a vacuum, but in reality, se has delivered a piece of content that is so punishing that you can’t afford to diversify an approach to beating it.

The t3 fights make this easy by having the mob be 100% immune to all but one type of damage. So by nature of those fights you have to focus on only one type of damage. Those fights mostly come very close on time.

Bumba opens up the damage types, but can you afford to split your buffs between melee and magic, or melee and ranged?

Maybe if the fix the mechanics that are broken, I could change my opinion, but as of right now, I personally don’t see a way to beat this fight other that completely circumventing the mechanics.
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By Asura.Bynebill 2023-03-19 00:49:12
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What actually prevents doing the fight in the opposite order of current strat, just curious.

Like if you went in on first key item with the kaustra/TP drain setup, let him get into fetter mode and then started kaustra burning him as low as you can, then coming in on key item2 and procing him then proceeding to zerg. people seem capable of getting him sub 50% in initial key item1 zerg currently.

Is it just the fact that doing it in that order would actually require you to proc him on the 2nd key item as opposed to being able to ignore that mechanic with the current strat. Is proccing him less of a gamble than the wild card/aura rng?
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