April 2019 Version Update

because the original argument was people only use run cause of added DPS, which then shifted into listing all the things run does better to build hate, then someone brought up what they do to spike hate as /war and then spam SB, the point was still hate gain, hence the argument as to why /war is crap compared to alternative means.

its your best DD sub if you're sword/boarding it, but not by very much and you could arguably get better hate through DPS by subbing drk/sam and using shining/calad and hopping back into shield if it gets dicey, or even DWing. But more simply;

Pld generates hate fine, the only main advantage run has in this department is higher damage, but pld retains its hate infinitely better as it will almost always take less damage, where as if a run fails a parry check a couple times theyre in the red.

which is incorrect, unless you think having flash and cures as your only natural low recat enmity tools is enough. But we had this argument 2~3 pages ago depnding on settings, so can refer back to that.

Point was pld has harder time maintaining enmity, aswell as lacking good aoe tools that arent on a 3~5 min recast, while run has plenty of options, and many of those options also providing substantial support such as valliance or epeo+liement dont think anyone was disputing that.

pld can't parry as much as run, so shining one/calad is out. The argument isn't to get highest dps possible, but to play as a tank while getting as much DPS out as possible.

Either way, this argument is in circles since we aren't talking about the same thing. People just feel like bashing /war with no context every 3 posts because they feel like it.

Pretty sure if the conversation was solely about DPS builds a 2Handed build with TSO would be the center of discussion.

>Run doesn't /war

Because run uses a 2 handed weapon, which doesn't get the Fencer TP Bonus. And they don't use Savage blade.

>Nin doesn't /war

Because nin dual wields, which also doesn't get fencer bonus, and they also don't spam savage blade

>So Paladin shouldn't /war

Only if you are using Shining one, in which case go /drk or /sam.

Otherwise, /war for Fencer bonus and 10% Double attack.

What are you all fighting that you are so concerned about with enmity? I've had no issues keeping the enemies attention in wave 3, Omen, Vagary while 3 boxing. The only thing I haven't done yet is Master trials because there seems to be a lack of interest from majority of my linkshell to even bother.

Most things are dead before hate cap becomes a concern unless its wave 3 boss which not even RUN can keep you safe there.

I have been able to successfully tank as Pld/Run this weeks VD Ambu, since /run gives a decent chunk of Inquartata, helps a lot!

I just wish Paladin could use Utu Grip.

It's certainly a fair bit hairy, and I did hit like 250hp a few times.

But honestly as long as you self cure, with Shining one a paladin will now out DPS a run.

But like, Run still gets -25% PDT one their weapon so they are actually theoretically now the 'tanky low dps' class, and paladin is a lot more glass cannon (for a tank)

It's kind of weird to play since you have to remember that you CANT just soak up damage like you used to.

But it really does seem like Warrior would actually perform as the 'best' tank nowadays.

You will have no issues holding hate spamming impulse drives, popping off provoke, etc.

Though, I do wonder what sub job would give War the best toolbox.

I'd say War/Drk? Though /Run's inquartata II would be a nice boost to tanking power with Shining One.

I dunno, I really think there's some kind of nugget of potential in Warrior tanking with Shining one with capped DT. Warrior /can/ use the Souv+1 set and many excellent tanking pieces the same as paladin.

Basically trading off a few enmitty tools in favor of "hits like a truck"

Who needs Flash when you can just spam 99k Impulse drives?

Torcleaver everything!

Cures have rather high enmity generation. Healers get innate healing enmity reduction through JTs and -enmity gear. Pld selfheal spam is more than capable of keeping up enmity through swapping in and out of +hp gear.

Shining one Pld out Dps a Run? I hope you're kidding man it's not even close

Lionheart would like to have a word with your DPS PLD.

I mean when myself as Rune comes 2nd on parse in melee WoC only behind a MS war, it shows how good of a DD job RUN is. smacking some 50-65k Resos then I'd love to know what Shining one can hit lol. Just Imagine what other rune fencers can do who are way better DDs than mine lol.

Rune got dem big *** numbers boi. Honestly I would not be surprised to see 70k+ resolution with R15 Lionheart.

There's no way you're hitting 99k impulse unless holding until 3k, in which case you're not beating anyone and even then I highly doubt.

PLD has an E in polearm...you'd need to be in your highest acc set or making your geo/brd focus on acc buff. Again not beating anyone and if making buffs cater to you over DD is extremely selfish to justify lolplddeeps.

And all credibility was instantly lost.


It's about PLD being able to compete with RUN in the primary function of a tank, hate retention. PLD's DPS isn't pulling any significant hate on anything CL135 or higher as the monsters level is a large factor in the amount of CE/VE that comes from damage. Anyone thinking RUN is "better" because of damage doesn't know the whole story.

You literally just stated damage is the only reason run is better, then proceeded to say people who think that dont know everything.

Re-read the post.

I said 99K Impulse drives on Warrior

I only do about 50~60K on paladin at around 2.1K TP

And yes you max out DPS on shining one hold til about 2.5~3K tp after TP Bonus, at least on paladin.

But Im sure the same holds for Warrior and Sam.

Feel free to double check it on the DPS spreadsheet. Though I do need to update it to my latest version, as I fixed the "WSD applies to all hits" bug the DPS spreadsheets have had forever now.

Ill try and remember to upload the latest iteration of the Paladin sheet tonight, Im currently working on fixing up the Run and War ones, then Sam will be next :)

My next goal is to add Skillchain Damage support to a small degree as part of the sheet.

Specifically just the ability to select a Skillchain you are proccing off your WS, that way Skillchain Bonus gear will also properly factor into your DPS.

There's a good chance many people have been neglecting SkillChain dmg gear in their WS sets since they can't see how much it contributes.

But I know closing Darkness with Impulse drive when soloing on paladin, my Darkness skillchains make up over half my damage. A 50K impulse drive will do easily a 60K+ darkness. So Skillchain dmg gear could, on some slots, outweigh WS dmg or Double attack or Triple attack. Maybe.

Itd just be nice to be able to evaluate that :)

Instead of trying to find unique and off-the-wall ways to make PLD better, how bout we discuss legitimate changes the job needs to be competitive with RUN? Its ok that they don't DPS as well as RUN, that's certainly not the only way to hold hate as we all know.

Part of the issue I see is mob design- when high-end targets like HELM are throwing out huge number damage through AoE magical attacks, what's one minute worth of Rampart compared to 3 minutes of Valiance, One for All, and Epeo-enhanced Liement? As far as I can see as someone who doesn't play PLD but does play RUN and relies on PLD now and then to hold the mob off me, PLDs shine with unengaged supertanking and physical damage single target attacks. I'm not sure how you make mobs requiring these techniques "dangerous" enough to justify being something substantial...

And if you're really that set on talking PLD dps, how about reworking Atonement to deal legitimate damage? I'm not talking about making it on the level of a well-geared/buffed Savage Blade, but at least something that's more than just a lackluster hate tool.

Fair enough I missed that you were referring to War, but you worded it poorly.

Fair, yeah no I was comparing Shining One paladin to just being a shitty Shining One War.

At a point you basically just have to ask "Why am I trying to use this on Paladin when I could just swap to War, put on a DT hybrid DPS set, use provoke on CD, and spam Impulse drives that hit even harder"

Thus "Who needs flash when you can just spam 99k impulse drives"

Hope the context helps :3

O.o???

I think your confused ... very confused.

Because we already went over all of that several pages ago and agreed:

1. Atonement needs to get mightily unfucked

2. Burtgang needs something more than just PDT II, it lacks any kind of proper Mythic weapon JSE effect. It's JSE effect used to be the PDT II, but then RUN got almost twice as much on their weapon AND a proper JSE effect, and they even got PDT II on their Oboro weapon, which makes Burtgang not feel like a proper mythic anymore. I particularily would be found of it making Fealty AoE, or Fealty recast - 50%, something like that. Paladins primary defense it needs shored up is its Meva. Fealty is a great JA for the mythic to augment in some way to boost that.

3. Paladin needs some of its skills slightly reworked to act as a foil to Rune's role as "Magic enhancer", basically we should get a 'physical' version of Rayke and Gambit. People suggested adding some kind of Defense Down effect to Shield bash, and I'd love for paladin to get something that augmented Flash to also synergize will with physical melee zerg.

I think those are the 3 fixes paladin needs to compete with Run, the end result would be "Bring run to magic based fights, bring Pld to physical based fights"

Which really feels like what SE intended it to be from the start.

I honestly despise the use of DPS spreadsheets as they can create false hope for people as spreadsheets aren't understood by the majority of people. People like Geriond, Afania from what i've heard use them very well. But they aren't always good or accurate, because situations change, buffs get wiped/potency is different.

Also for the brining PLD closer to RUN thing. PLD has too many things going against it which has been stated too many times, to the point we are repeating each other.

PLD's already nigh invulnerable, it takes an act of god to kill a good PLD. The issues revolve around them holding hate off high powered DD's as most PLD's go /WAR and are thus nerfed in hate capacity. Going /DRK gives them a second spamable hate tool, they still aren't as good as RUN's three spamable hate tools but it's better then just having one. RUN can also be a pretty good DD, which gets people confused when discussing the two. Discussing PLD tanking, all it really needs is a self target hate spell with a shortish recast, aka foil. Foil lets a RUN cast something like poisonga to get on the hate list, then Foil to generate a ton of enmity and force everything to fight them. The RUN can then spam Foil and keep all those adds on itself while the DD's tear them apart. Give PLD something like that and it's on par with RUN if not better in the tanking department as dispel doesn't hurt a PLD while it cripples a RUN.

Talking the DPS aspect is different as it's super situational. RUN will be Lionheart + /SAM if it's really doing DPS work, Epeo + /DRK though lets it do burst of DPS damage periodically and buffs it's attack somewhat but is still weak as a DPS. PLD on the other hand is crippled for DPS using a shield, there is no way around this. If the PLD is willing to DW as /NIN then it gets better as they can main Burtang and off a DPS weapon for decent DPS. They could also use cala as /SAM for Torc spam. Both of these are generally ignored because other jobs do it better. So if we really want to give PLD real DPS it needs a way to deal good damage with a shield, so JA Haste and decent TP Bonus. This is why I think they should have native Fencer V (+500 TP Bonus +10% Crit) and Fencer give +10% JA Haste.

I think for balance reasons, Fencer should give Delay Reduction, not Haste.

I'd be fine with Fencer working the same as Dual wield, but much smaller.

IE Fencer V giving like -20% Delay Reduction. Something like that. This would add a new interesting dynamic to Single wield vs Dual wield on warrior, bard, etc.

Dual wield still has its big bonus of "your offhand gives stats" which actually often just translates to 1000 tp bonus, cough cough.

So if fencer gave a bit less TP bonus, but you could use Blurred Shield to basically even it out, offhanding a magian TP bonus weapon loses its appeal.

I think that'd be a clever way to go about it at least.

That defense down would need to be a unique effect, or be a stronger version of existing defense downs. The former being broken as hell, the later needing to be strong enough to compensate for PLD lower than RUN DPS. Especially if it's attached to shield bash.

One ifea I had was a massive 'increased skillchain damage taken' debuff we can inflict. Would be a cool foil to Run's Rayke

Hard to really consider the former option broken when Rayke exists.

Hasso already gives 10% JA Haste, LR gives 15% and DB raise's that to 25%. DRG's Wyvern also gives them 10% JA Haste along with DNC Haste Samba doing the same for everyone hitting the same mob they are. MNK's use MA to reach delay floor and DW need just 36DW to reach theirs. Fencer not giving 10% JA Haste would render the whole thing useless anyway.

The only time I've ever been able to make Sword + Shield worthwhile for damage was when I had a DNC in the party with me.

This, but I only use it on Fetters nowadays.

Literally impossible to lose hate, no matter what. That being said, I haven't met anyone with a HP macro since I came back, I'm under the impression that nobody does it anymore (and healers, humans and bots alike, make it hell to be used efficiently).