April 2019 Version Update

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April 2019 Version Update
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 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-15 16:58:50
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If youre doing things with multiple adds, either theyre being slept or a DD can tank them anyway.
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By Aerix 2019-04-15 17:00:59
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Most DDs with hate don't last very long in Dyna Wave 3 and sleeping isn't an option. And going from circle to circle means Sentinel won't always be ready for each of them.

Of course PLD can manage to do it, as my LS's main PLD has been doing it for months. But it doesn't mean that PLD shouldn't be better.
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By Nariont 2019-04-15 17:11:23
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as already stated, spike enmity isnt plds problem, its self and sustained enmity, you do that whole rotation and then happen to get hate reset, or move to another target/get an add, what are you left with? Voke/flash. Also unless im mistaken/bg is wrong, that extra enm on sentinal is gear enmity, meaning 50~ of it is getting wasted, or am i wrong in +enmity being capped at 200?

edit: seems JA enmity is applied seperately so nevermind that then i guess
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By soralin 2019-04-15 17:43:54
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Aerix said: »
soralin said: »
Aerix said: »
How is PLD in a good spot for Enmity?

Sentinel. You are forgetting Sentinel. +100 enmity for 30 seconds (which you then pop off all your other skills)

Divine Emblem > Sentinel > Flash > Voke > War Cry > Holy Circle > Palisade > Shield Bash > Rampart > Fealty > Flash (Again)

Thats my opening ROTA, order doesn't super matter but I try and make sure Rampart is popped off last, since generally it doesn't matter until the fight gets deeper.

Once all that is done, I just spam the *** off Savage blade.

With Sentinel up, you effectively generate double hate. Thats the key.

A lot of stupid paladins pop off all their cooldown effects and save sentinel for last, and are confused they cant keep hate.

Sentinel ALWAYS goes first. I have had numerous times playing non-tank where I saw that and sent them a tell and they were like "Oh I never knew Sentinel was so important"

Sentinel is on a 4-5 min recast and /WAR isn't great for tanking. If you are doing any kind of content where your initial spike Enmity doesn't matter much, i.e. multiple sets of adds, then you can't burn everything during Sentinel or you're left with nothing. If you're on PLD/BLU, your damage is lackluster.

Foil is spammable and is affected by Haste. And RUN/DRK can both single target and AoE tank while always keeping their damage intact.

/war mostly for Savage Blade spam.

Without Fencer, paladin really has lackluster DPS output.

For AoE holding that really depends on the fight.

/blu can hold hate just fine but then you have to accept not being able to DPS.

So yeah, Run can just do it better.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-15 17:57:37
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soralin said: »
/war mostly for Savage Blade spam.

/WAR sucks *** for Savage Blade, Fencer 1 is really bad.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Fencer

Quote:
+200 TP, +3% Crit. Rate

It's weaker then a piece of moonshade.

Stop using /WAR, it's bad and your bad for using it.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-15 18:17:01
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Nariont said: »
I thought blu was the go to sub for pld, stun enmity values just that much better i guess?

Casting speed and spamability. /BLU is for AoE with things like Sheep Song / Geist Wall.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Flash
CE: 180
VE: 1280
Cast: 0.5s
Recast: 45s

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Stun
CE: 180
VE: 1280
Cast: 0.5s
Recast: 45s

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Provoke
CE: 1
VE :1800
Recast: 30s

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Foil (Just for comparison)
CE: 320
VE: 880
Recast: 45s

Stun is Flash on a separate timer and who's recast can be reduced by haste and fast cast.

So assuming march's / ect we have 68.75% haste for 31.25% recast.

45 * 0.3125 = 14.06s recast, 14s or half the recast of Provoke.

Add in just 30 fast cast for 45 * 0.3125 * 0.85 = 11.95s

Assuming the PLD has +100 enmity during cast (just for easy of math)

Flash gives 360 CE and 2560 VE every 12~14s or 900 CE and 6400 VE in the same time provoke gives 2 CE and 3600 VE. Stun behaves the same way Flash does and fits perfectly with a rotation.

~That~ is why /WAR is stupid these days, Stun alone is a better hate tool then everything that /WAR provides but it's not the only tool /DRK provides. /DRK also comes with 2 high hate JE's to add to PLD's already large arsenal, best part being they are self targeting and this effect everything the PLD is on the hate list with.

Last Resort
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Last_Resort
CE: 1
VE: 1300
Recast: 5min

Souleater
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Souleater
CE: 1
VE: 1300
Recast: 6min

You cancel both of their effects immediately after use because your only really using them for hate.

Basically the PLD can do Sentinal for +100 enmity, then go Flash + Stun + Hate JA's and fit in another round of Flash + Foil before the timer expires. Afterwards they just continuously rotate Flash + Stun maintain capped VE and CE. On a note for caps, VE is stupidly easy to cap and decays at a set rate of 60 per second. CE is the element that only decays with damage taken, which PLD doesn't really worry about. Provoke only has 1 CE, which is why it's good for initial hate but really shitty for building / maintaining long term hate.

So while RUN's are indeed better then PLD's at building and holding hate, the reason they seem so much better is because RUN forces the player to play a more aggressive and dynamic role while PLD's still play in the classic method they did back in 2006. Any objective analysis of subs has /DRK beating /WAR by leaps and bounds, yet whats the sub the majority of PLD's automatically change to. The problem is only about half job related.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-04-15 19:26:30
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Nariont said: »
as already stated, spike enmity isnt plds problem, its self and sustained enmity, you do that whole rotation and then happen to get hate reset, or move to another target/get an add, what are you left with? Voke/flash. Also unless im mistaken/bg is wrong, that extra enm on sentinal is gear enmity, meaning 50~ of it is getting wasted, or am i wrong in +enmity being capped at 200?

edit: seems JA enmity is applied seperately so nevermind that then i guess
Sentinel is and always has been gear enmity+, despite being a JA. So you are correct in noting that sentinel isn't going to net a pld +100 enmity, due to the gear enmity cap of +200. Well, unless your enmity set+crusade was less than +100 enmity to start...

iirc, my PLD enmity sets are pushing something like 180+ enmity, so sentinel is getting you like ~20 enmity+.

Now, sentinel is still really good enmity-wise, but it's not because you're getting +100 enmity. Cause unless your enmity set really sucked, you aren't getting the use of the full+100.

Sentinel now, is about the job point enhancement. The enmity enhancement from job points is a separate mulplicative term from gear enmity. So you do base*JP bonus*gear. At capped JP, it's a x1.2 modifier on your CE/VE values.

So say for flash, with +180 enmity, normally we'd have,
base*enmitygear
CE: 180*2.8=504
VE: 1280*2.8=3584

Sentinel up we'd do,
base*JPbonus*enmitygear
CE: 180*1.2*2.8=648 CE
VE: 1280*1.2*2.8=4608 VE

This is pretty good. It's not quite as good as if we were actually getting a cap ignoring +100 enmity, but it's actually pretty close in this particular comparison.(about a 5% difference in favor of the straight+100) And it's a hell of a lot better than if we were only getting the +20ish enmity out of sentinel.

There are also cases where you can't gear for max enmity due to HP concerns, or the desire to maintain PDT/DT. Sentinel will be more useful under these conditions since you had less gear enmity+ to start with.
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By Afania 2019-04-15 19:27:54
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Asura.Saevel said: »
soralin said: »
/war mostly for Savage Blade spam.

/WAR sucks *** for Savage Blade, Fencer 1 is really bad.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Fencer

Quote:
+200 TP, +3% Crit. Rate

It's weaker then a piece of moonshade.

Stop using /WAR, it's bad and your bad for using it.

The context of this discussion is dps builds.



soralin said: »
/war mostly for Savage Blade spam.

Dont really get how the discussion jump from dps build/savage blade spam to enmity values of every JA and spells.
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By soralin 2019-04-15 19:42:02
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Whats the proposed alternative?

/sam?

I don't see 15 store TP outweighing 10% DA and 200 TP Bonus.

/drk for Desperate Blows?

I guess thats valid. I can see in zerg runs like Ambuscade Desperate blows outweighing 200 tp bonus.

Stun is pretty nice to have too.

VD Ambu runs this month didnt run much longer than 3 minutes, so Im sure I'd get the full duration of it.

Fair.

Any other alternatives?
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By Afania 2019-04-15 19:43:30
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Desperate blow doesnt work on 1h weapon.
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By Afania 2019-04-15 19:59:34
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soralin said: »
Whats the proposed alternative?

For savage blade spam, I dont think any SJ beats /war for it, unless you are giving up shield.

Heres my take on this SJ discussion. As long as tank can successfully hold hate and dont die, extra dps is extra dps. Its always better to do more than less.

If OP is already holding hate with just savage spam like him claimed, it doesnt matter if their dd is bad or not, they should use whatever SJ that generates best dps. So in that specific scenerio, /war is indeed the best choice for doing even more dps. That does not mean its by all end all best SJ for every situation, nor provoke should be rely on as main enmity tool.

So I dont get why the discussion suddenly turn into enmity JA comparsion, it wasnt the point at all.
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-04-15 21:00:07
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Yeah 200 TP Bonus is lackluster but more damage is more damage and if you don't need the /drk hate tools, say because your SB spam is enough to keep hate, /war should be the higher damage option of the two. If you need /drk's tools like if there's frequent hate resets or you don't do enough damage yet, you go /drk... To argue otherwise is asinine, especially if you like to talk about how ***is situation in other aspects of the game.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-15 23:41:38
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soralin said: »
Whats the proposed alternative?

/DRK for the same reason RUN use's it, best overall enmity tools.

Pandemonium.Zeto said: »
Yeah 200 TP Bonus is lackluster but more damage is more damage and if you don't need the /drk hate tools, say because your SB spam is enough to keep hate, /war should be the higher damage option of the two

You will not be spamming Savage Blade as /WAR, you'll be WSing very slowly.

There is a job in the game that gets +730 TP Bonus from fencer while naked, +780 TP Bonus when using their best shield for it. That job gets a Regain Sword, over 2.0 averaged attacks per round and monstrous offensive stats, and yet that job doesn't go near fencer for "spamming savage blade".

This is why people want to use RUN's over PLD's, RUN's were forced to play aggressively with hate so that's the play style that developed with it. PLD's have traditionally just engaged, poped a bunch of long timer hate tools and coasted throughout the fight cause there wasn't anything else they could really do back then.

Anyhow, if SE wants to "fix" PLD offensively then give it native Fencer V while also making Fencer give 10% JA haste. Defensively would be some sort of short recast self target spell that has high enmity generation aka Foil.
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By soralin 2019-04-15 23:51:01
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Asura.Saevel said: »
and yet that job doesn't go near fencer for "spamming savage blade".

False equivalence.

They Dual Wield with Fencer because Dual Wield allows War to cap its Delay Reduction.

Paladin will not have Dual Wield as an option.

Warrior:

Option A: Dual Wield <<<
Option B: Fencer

Paladin:
Option A: Dual Wield (Not an Option)
Option B: Fencer <<<

Thats the only reason why War doesnt use Fencer. If warrior had capped delay reduction via any means other than Dual wield, you bet your *** they'd be going with Fencer, without a doubt.

Also, Warrior already has enough TP Bonus to get them over 2K on Savage Blade without Fencer for zerg parties. Which means Fencer provides not much more damage.

Paladin, however, does not have that much TP Bonus, so Fencer still is boosting them in the 1K~2K fTP range.

Apples and Oranges.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-16 00:08:00
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soralin said: »
Paladin:
Option A: Dual Wield
Option B: Fencer
Option C: /DRK <<< Real Answer

And PLD can go /NIN just like everyone else can, it can even main hand Burtang for the DT in a hybrid setup or go /SAM with Cala. Hell you can be really nuts and start off with Cala pop LR and spam Torc then switch out to Burtang + Shield when it's dangerous.

You won't be getting TP fast enough as /WAR to contribute any meaningful damage while simultaneously gimping your group by forcing the DD's to tank more often.

/WAR is bad and you should feel bad for using it.
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By soralin 2019-04-16 00:32:46
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That would probably be an awful decision considering the alternative is just use shining one, if you are going to go shieldless.

As nice as Savage Blade spam is, those sick Impulse drives and /sam will roflstomp any other option as a paladin.

But like... going without aegis is a pipe dream. I have tried it and there is a minute part of content you can do it on.

At which point you really gotta ask yourself why you arent just tanking on War with Shining One but 50% DT in gear and a proper enmity set.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-04-16 02:40:27
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Afania said: »
As long as tank can successfully hold hate and dont die, extra dps is extra dps. Its always better to do more than less.

Unless you’re ruining more valuable SCs by trying to prove you can hang as a mediocre DD while trying to tank... Although, yes, I get what you’re saying if WS spam is fine.

soralin said: »
At which point you really gotta ask yourself why you arent just tanking on War with Shining One but 50% DT in gear and a proper enmity set.

Because like Saevel said, you can swap into Burt/Aegis once things do get more dangerous, allowing you to swap on the fly during a fight/event as needed and be a much better tank than WAR once it becomes important. I can’t imagine people are really intending to turn PLD into a DPS machine, it’s more a matter of: during times when stuff doesn’t require PLD to go all out on tanking, what’s the most viable way to contribute some damage? And yeah, for that kind if application, RUN stomps PLD in being able to quick switch to a more offensive-oriented build and still swap back to being a “serious” tank in an instant... but nobody’s really debating that as between PLD and RUN, discussion here is more of a theoretical question about PLD.
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By Taint 2019-04-16 06:48:30
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/DRK for run also pairs well with a 2hand job.

RUN/DRK can take full advantage of LR haste and bash.

The first thing i though when PLD/DRK was mentioned was events where Cala/Shining could be used during LR.

PLD has ridiculous tanking gear. High HP and Emmity.

If you need a shield I’d stick with /war or /blu. If you can 2hand a good bit /DrK has some appeal.

Summary: Play RUN
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-16 07:21:55
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Taint said: »
If you need a shield I’d stick with /war or /blu.

Stun alone beats everything /WAR provides. This is about enmity generation, something RUN crush's PLD on, their sub is a large contributor to that.

Now if Fencer 1 gave 10% JA Haste it would be a different discussion but it doesn't.

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
discussion here is more of a theoretical question about PLD.

How to maximize the point of bringing a PLD, being the Wall That Shall Not Be Moved, holding hate better and contributing something extra if possible. It's also to get people to stop playing like it's 2006 and thinking they need to be /WAR.
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By Taint 2019-04-16 07:42:30
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Stun is fantastic for sure.

WAR has aggressor, defender, fencer, da. You can also provoke while moving with JA0wait.

PLD just has issues and i agree some sort of fencer haste would go a long ways.
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-04-16 08:28:01
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Taint said: »
WAR has aggressor, defender, fencer, da.

3/4 of those are useless on PLD and defender is of minimal use. Provoke sucks for enmity due to 1CE and 30s static timer.

There is a reason NIN's tanked as /DRK and not /WAR, and unlike NIN both RUN and PLD have more built in hate tools. We don't see a single experienced RUN going /WAR and it has nothing to do with damage.

Taint said: »
PLD just has issues and i agree some sort of fencer haste would go a long ways.

Biggest problem is the communities unwillingness to move from a 2006 play style. Searching for any reason to stick with the same subjob they had ten years ago.
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By Boshi 2019-04-16 08:37:13
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Asura.Saevel said: »
We don't see a single experienced RUN going /WAR and it has nothing to do with damage.

/war has been gimp for like half a decade
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By eliroo 2019-04-16 08:39:28
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Asura.Saevel said: »
We don't see a single experienced RUN going /WAR and it has nothing to do with damage.

It probably does. Pretty sure DRK is the preferred sub because of damage. It also provides great enmity tools but a RUN would prefer it over BLU because it also adds damage. Also we wouldn't see a RUN going /WAR because if they really wanted DMG then DRK/SAM are vastly superior =P
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-04-16 08:40:06
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Let's just leave it as PLD sucks.
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By Nariont 2019-04-16 08:48:20
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Biggest problem is the communities unwillingness to move from a 2006 play style.

more like the plds who used subs beyond /war for hate gain all went off to be RUNs which left the remainder who think the job is fine as is.
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 Shiva.Xelltrix
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By Shiva.Xelltrix 2019-04-16 09:15:58
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This sort of reminds me of when Scholar got reworked a bit and became a really good job/subjob but none of the Whms cared and just kept subbing BLM. Ended up leveling WHM to 75 myself just because I got tired of the slow-adaptors I grouped with refusing to get with the times and use a useful sub.
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By eliroo 2019-04-16 09:43:03
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I think my best experience with people being stuck in the past was looking at RUNs kit and wondering why people insisted on using PLD for Death burns.
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By Afania 2019-04-16 11:09:55
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Afania said: »
As long as tank can successfully hold hate and dont die, extra dps is extra dps. Its always better to do more than less.

Unless you’re ruining more valuable SCs by trying to prove you can hang as a mediocre DD while trying to tank... Although, yes, I get what you’re saying if WS spam is fine.

What's so "ruining the sc" about savage blade when cor in the pt spams it too. In fact in a 6 man pt with a fusion ws DD like war I'd argue that rudra spam from brd ruins SC more than savage blade cor and pld.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-16 11:14:16
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/war provides more damage, as stated. /Drk doesnt beat out "everything /war does".
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By Afania 2019-04-16 11:17:27
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Biggest problem is the communities unwillingness to move from a 2006 play style. Searching for any reason to stick with the same subjob they had ten years ago.

Nobody is arguing pld should rely on /war provoke as primary hate tool. We are saying /war provides best dmg with savage blade spam.

People keep missing the point by bashing /war every 3 posts without context.
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