You'll Shoot Your Eye Out! - New FFXI RNG Guide

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2019-12-13
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You'll Shoot Your Eye Out! - New FFXI RNG Guide
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-01-06 21:44:25
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Afania said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Only way Unlimited Shot will ever be worth using is if they uncouple the shared timer.

Or when you Melee for TP and do ranged WS :)

I'm not sure I even agree with that, since Double Shot /ra is likely faster TP generation than any melee set we can use. Hard to beat a single /ra attack round usually generating enough TP for another WS, which is the situation I'm usually in with Double Shot up and a decent Samurai Roll. My build has 82% DS, and I don't even use Oshosi+1 body for another possible 8% (because I go Arcadian+3 for better white damage with Empy AM3 + more TP overflow when it grants a Double>Triple Shot proc). Even for the ~10-20% of the time you don't get a DS proc, it's two /ra rounds to WS - an excellent dagger/sword/axe TP set is still gonna be hard pressed to keep up with that.

Melee for TP is really better suited to the ~50% of the time Double Shot is down, IMO.
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By Afania 2020-01-07 00:36:52
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Afania said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Only way Unlimited Shot will ever be worth using is if they uncouple the shared timer.

Or when you Melee for TP and do ranged WS :)

I'm not sure I even agree with that, since Double Shot /ra is likely faster TP generation than any melee set we can use. Hard to beat a single /ra attack round usually generating enough TP for another WS, which is the situation I'm usually in with Double Shot up and a decent Samurai Roll. My build has 82% DS, and I don't even use Oshosi+1 body for another possible 8% (because I go Arcadian+3 for better white damage with Empy AM3 + more TP overflow when it grants a Double>Triple Shot proc). Even for the ~10-20% of the time you don't get a DS proc, it's two /ra rounds to WS - an excellent dagger/sword/axe TP set is still gonna be hard pressed to keep up with that.

Melee for TP is really better suited to the ~50% of the time Double Shot is down, IMO.

Have you ever test total WS done in certain time frame in ranged mode v.s melee?

Because range mode may seem fast with 1 round to 1000 TP but in reality there's a delay between TP and WS, the lag between each shot also happens more often, which isnt the case with melee.

I mean, people discussed COR triple shot ranged v.s melee mode tp speed on COR forums before, some went out to test them and post numbers, others made videos too, but in the end from what I've seen ranged TP speed and melee TP speed is quite similar with SAM roll and haste. And TS has even higher proc rate than DS.

RNG has KC too, although I'm not sure if KC tp speed in sets posted by Austar beats dagger sword axe in normal tp set.

I guess I can try to math them out when have time.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-01-07 01:37:48
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Afania said: »
Have you ever test total WS done in certain time frame in ranged mode v.s melee?

I haven't, but I'm interested enough that I'll probably head out to some Apex mobs in the next day or two during a slow time at work, and parse a few rounds of Double Shot up (with Velocity Shot) versus the same timeframe of pure melee (no Velocity Shot, capped melee delay reduction that I can easily maintain fulltime with 2box alt on GEO doing Indi-Haste + Haste spell) to see actual WS frequency. I don't have a Kclub, but that should still provide some insight.

Quote:
And TS has even higher proc rate than DS.

That's true, but we'll also need to factor in that RNG has Velocity Shot for significantly reduced ranged aiming delay (34% with Empy +1 Body/JSE cape) versus COR. And it could indeed be practical for a RNG to flip between Velocity on/off since the 2019 job adjustment brought the timer down to 1min - i.e., Velocity and shoot when DS is up, Velocity off and melee when it's down.

And while TS has a higher proc rate (95% with COR Empy+1 body, 4/5 Oshosi +1, and Ambuscade Cape - versus RNG's 90% with 5/5 Oshosi+1, or 82% if using Arcadian+3 body), that edge makes less of an overall impact since TS has a significantly longer cooldown (90sec duration for both, 5min cooldown for TS and 3min for DS).

While there's some player input involved in timing your shots, it's also the case that, in practical situations, when you're standing in melee range you'll often get some "extra" TP from melee swings even if you are focused on shooting. Might be enough to get an occasional WS in without having to shoot an extra round where your DS/TS doesn't proc, or maybe you get like 850+ TP and just wait for the next melee round to reach WS instead of firing off another ranged attack that could take longer.

On a purely anecdotal level, the last practical situation I regularly ran into on RNG where I gave a serious go at melee was Omen floors for WS objectives. I always ended up finding it faster to shoot than melee in those real world situations.
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 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2020-01-07 02:18:42
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Odin.Juliano said: »
The only thing to test is whether it(Hauksbok Arrow) works on non ranged ws. Unlimited shot will never be worth using until they decouple it from double shot. (They did it with dragoon jumps so there is some precedence.)
100% works on non ranged WSes personally tested. Aeolian Edge without 1049 with 1258.

1049 x 1.2 = floor(1258.8)

I've updated BG to refelect this.
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By geigei 2020-01-07 02:58:59
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Savage blade rng go!
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2020-01-07 10:24:39
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geigei said: »
Savage blade rng go!

lol, anarchy +2 + Hauksbok arrow that seems sick, +1000 TP bonus AND +20% WSD?!

Edit: Sorry, whatever the bow equivalent of anarchy is...

Edit: Damnit!!! now I have to make a TP bonus bow!
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2020-01-07 10:36:32
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
geigei said: »
Savage blade rng go!

lol, anarchy +2 + Hauksbok arrow that seems sick, +1000 TP bonus AND +20% WSD?!

Edit: Sorry, whatever the bow equivalent of anarchy is...

Edit: Damnit!!! now I have to make a TP bonus bow!



you're only 2900 weaponskills away
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By Jimmyballsack 2020-01-07 10:54:42
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Hauksbok Arrow's WSD works with any WS, and had me thinking of a RNG fencer Savage Blade build involving Naegling, Accipiter (1000tp bonus Magian bow) and said arrow. Problem is, I don't see anywhere this would be useful outside of the scope of simply screwing around.

Edit: beaten to the punch by some of the dudes above.
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By geigei 2020-01-07 11:06:03
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At this point in game...why not fooling around?
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By Jimmyballsack 2020-01-07 11:08:43
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Yeah, pretty much.
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By SimonSes 2020-01-07 11:39:40
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Jimmyballsack said: »
Hauksbok Arrow's WSD works with any WS, and had me thinking of a RNG fencer Savage Blade build involving Naegling, Accipiter (1000tp bonus Magian bow) and said arrow. Problem is, I don't see anywhere this would be useful outside of the scope of simply screwing around.

Edit: beaten to the punch by some of the dudes above.

Why fencer? /nin and do it like cor. Also this was viable before this arrow. Ejin was using it on rng even on wave 3 (he wasnt using Gastra because they only use melee buffs I think). On RNG you can also use kraken club in sub hand.
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By SimonSes 2020-01-07 11:46:36
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Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »

you're only 2900 weaponskills away

You dont need to push trials that far. You can stop on Sparrowhawk +2 with +1000 TP bonus. So 1900 WS total.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2020-01-07 12:35:58
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SimonSes said: »
Jimmyballsack said: »
Hauksbok Arrow's WSD works with any WS, and had me thinking of a RNG fencer Savage Blade build involving Naegling, Accipiter (1000tp bonus Magian bow) and said arrow. Problem is, I don't see anywhere this would be useful outside of the scope of simply screwing around.

Edit: beaten to the punch by some of the dudes above.

Why fencer? /nin and do it like cor. Also this was viable before this arrow. Ejin was using it on rng even on wave 3 (he wasnt using Gastra because they only use melee buffs I think). On RNG you can also use kraken club in sub hand.

Only thing I can think would be to get fencer TP bonus and possibly berserk, but I agree, /nin and capping delay would generally be better.

sure it was viable before this arrow, but without this piece, it's kind of just like every other job, and the +10% WSD items down have any melee stats for RNG. No other job can do +20% WSD, AND TP Bonus essentially in a throw away slot. Now its even morer viabler! :D
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2020-01-07 13:19:19
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SimonSes said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »

you're only 2900 weaponskills away

You dont need to push trials that far. You can stop on Sparrowhawk +2 with +1000 TP bonus. So 1900 WS total.

Oh, well thats good to hear. I am working on a TP Bonus sword atm
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By SimonSes 2020-01-07 14:03:38
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
SimonSes said: »
Jimmyballsack said: »
Hauksbok Arrow's WSD works with any WS, and had me thinking of a RNG fencer Savage Blade build involving Naegling, Accipiter (1000tp bonus Magian bow) and said arrow. Problem is, I don't see anywhere this would be useful outside of the scope of simply screwing around.

Edit: beaten to the punch by some of the dudes above.

Why fencer? /nin and do it like cor. Also this was viable before this arrow. Ejin was using it on rng even on wave 3 (he wasnt using Gastra because they only use melee buffs I think). On RNG you can also use kraken club in sub hand.

Only thing I can think would be to get fencer TP bonus and possibly berserk, but I agree, /nin and capping delay would generally be better.

sure it was viable before this arrow, but without this piece, it's kind of just like every other job, and the +10% WSD items down have any melee stats for RNG. No other job can do +20% WSD, AND TP Bonus essentially in a throw away slot. Now its even morer viabler! :D

Sure, but imo the combo of Kraken and Malignanace is whats gamebraking for savage build on rng. That arrow is cherry on top.
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 Asura.Arico
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By Asura.Arico 2020-01-07 15:10:26
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SimonSes said: »
Sure, but imo the combo of Kraken and Malignanace is whats gamebraking for savage build on rng. That arrow is cherry on top.

So you just go full Malignance and offhand a kclub?
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By SimonSes 2020-01-07 15:29:11
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Asura.Arico said: »
SimonSes said: »
Sure, but imo the combo of Kraken and Malignanace is whats gamebraking for savage build on rng. That arrow is cherry on top.

So you just go full Malignance and offhand a kclub?

Well probably something like this:
ItemSet 370563
 Cerberus.Mrkillface
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By Cerberus.Mrkillface 2020-01-07 16:20:31
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What would acc look like on the club in that set?
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 Asura.Outlawbruce
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By Asura.Outlawbruce 2020-01-07 18:50:02
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Acc bonus VI- 73
Then all the acc from gifts. Too lazy to add up.
Set above: 330 acc
Food: 100+
Coupled with honor March and Blade Madrigal. Whatever else buffs you're getting. I dont think you'll have problems hitting with the club. Even su5 volte might be able to hit those with indi precision and land distract III. I cant answer to that definitively. You'd need a LS that's willing to waste a dynamis experimenting for fun lol
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By Cerberus.Mrkillface 2020-01-07 20:46:09
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Oh, I just figured someone with a K-club and malignance set could throw it on and do a /checkparam.
 Odin.Juliano
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By Odin.Juliano 2020-01-07 21:11:06
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Missing malig body and hat, but have kclub and two days away from spending 20 mil on a single arrow... how could this go wrong?
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 Asura.Outlawbruce
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By Asura.Outlawbruce 2020-01-07 21:20:37
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Odin.Juliano said: »
Missing malig body and hat, but have kclub and two days away from spending 20 mil on a single arrow... how could this go wrong?

You're spending 20 mil on a rare/ex arrow that's free if you do DI?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-01-07 21:23:42
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He means that the arrow has an opportunity cost of: not 1 wyrm ash

You can't buy it, but it still costs you like.... ~15m
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By Jimmyballsack 2020-01-07 23:52:49
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SimonSes said: »
Jimmyballsack said: »
Hauksbok Arrow's WSD works with any WS, and had me thinking of a RNG fencer Savage Blade build involving Naegling, Accipiter (1000tp bonus Magian bow) and said arrow. Problem is, I don't see anywhere this would be useful outside of the scope of simply screwing around.

Edit: beaten to the punch by some of the dudes above.

Why fencer? /nin and do it like cor. Also this was viable before this arrow. Ejin was using it on rng even on wave 3 (he wasnt using Gastra because they only use melee buffs I think). On RNG you can also use kraken club in sub hand.

Mainly for stacking TP bonus with Savage Blade which scales massively as we know, along with berserk, aggressor and 10% DA being the side benefit. Was just a passing thought as I still don't see it having use in an efficient setup, /nin or whatever. Even if w3 had much replay value (it doesn't), it's no comparison to RNG TF, damage wise and especially hate wise.

We have talked about kclub fencer TF RNG possibly being good with full Malignance being a thing. We'll try it out when some returnees are actually down to get their wins.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-01-08 00:03:11
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If for some reason you wanted to use a 1h build, /DRG may be stronger than /WAR since the recent DRG job changes. Subjob Fencer is only 200 TP Bonus and (for these purposes) a largely irrelevant crit rate +3% (though yeah, DA+10% is also relevant). /DRG is 7% WSD on all hits of every WS.

Still, even without a K.Club, I'm inclined to think that the significantly faster TP speed from DW is the better option over any single wielding subjob. I have recently found that to be the case on Savage Blade WAR (even without an offhand TP Bonus magian axe), and that's consistent with what seems like the general consensus from the recent WAR 1h/oddball weapon thread.
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By Jimmyballsack 2020-01-08 00:15:01
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
If for some reason you wanted to use a 1h build, /DRG may be stronger than /WAR since the recent DRG job changes. Subjob Fencer is only 200 TP Bonus and (for these purposes) a largely irrelevant crit rate +3% (though yeah, DA+10% is also relevant). /DRG is 7% WSD on all hits of every WS.

Still, even without a K.Club, I'm inclined to think that the significantly faster TP speed from DW is the better option over any single wielding subjob. I have recently found that to be the case on Savage Blade WAR (even without an offhand TP Bonus magian axe), and that's consistent with what seems like the general consensus from the recent WAR 1h/oddball weapon thread.

I can see the /drg thing, especially for hate-dumping, as enmity becomes a problem using this physical build. RNG's still at a bad disadvantage vs CORs with their 100% uptime -48% dt. Malignance sure helped RNG in this respect, but you know NMs only TP your *** in your WS set.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-01-08 01:36:08
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So I went out and did some super quick checks of my real world WS frequency by Savage Blading some Apex Crabs (intentionally WSing in a bad set to ensure they lived for the whole time) with 90 seconds of a few each of:
(a) Shooting for TP with Double Shot, flurry II, Sam Roll XI (just PR+5 ring), and
(b) Melee for TP with capped haste/delay (/NIN with DW+11, capped magical haste), same Sam Roll. No KClub, so I used Naegling/Tauret.

And yeah... each method did end up being very similar in WS frequency. Like, within 1-2 WS of each other in my handful of tries. I could totally see a Naegling/K.Club & Malignance build giving melee a significantly higher WS rate, assuming you can meet acc requirements for the offhand. And that would be useful both for SB or ranged WS (if TF is better, no reason you can't fire that off after meleeing for TP).

A few other factors:

- SB is lower TP return than Trueflight, making it harder to hit 1000tp in a single /ra round than if you were using a ranged WS. So, that favors melee if you're using a sword WS.

- Stronger Phantom Rolls (i.e., Regal Necklace or Rostam, which I don't have on my COR mule) would probably benefit ranged more, since making it easier to hit 1000+ TP in a single round is huge. The times you need to do multiple /ra shots to get to 1000+ TP is the real limiting factor for shooting; if you don't have enough STP to reliably do a single attack round (or no more than 2 /ra) then melee is probably better purely from a WS frequency standpoint.

- I was standing right next to Apex Crabs without fear, but in "real" situations ranged has the significant benefit of being able to TP and do damage from a distance (though, that makes it harder to use a melee WS... so you're back in normal "RNG doing what RNG typically does" pew pew territory). Shooting can also be helpful in situations like Dyna or Omen trash mobs where you can park it and just shoot mobs where they are, without needing to run around much and waste time getting in melee range.

I think the real question is... is Savage Blade actually good enough with all of the TP Bonus/WSD buffs to warrant using it over ranged WS? Does seem like a nice option to have for mobs that are very strong to our magical ranged WS, but on more neutral mobs (or obviously those that are weak to TF/WF) maybe not.

At any rate, I do kinda want to finish a TP Bonus bow now, and I'll grab the bullet in my next 1~2 DI rewards.
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2020-01-08 04:11:45
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Jimmyballsack said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
If for some reason you wanted to use a 1h build, /DRG may be stronger than /WAR since the recent DRG job changes. Subjob Fencer is only 200 TP Bonus and (for these purposes) a largely irrelevant crit rate +3% (though yeah, DA+10% is also relevant). /DRG is 7% WSD on all hits of every WS.

Still, even without a K.Club, I'm inclined to think that the significantly faster TP speed from DW is the better option over any single wielding subjob. I have recently found that to be the case on Savage Blade WAR (even without an offhand TP Bonus magian axe), and that's consistent with what seems like the general consensus from the recent WAR 1h/oddball weapon thread.

I can see the /drg thing, especially for hate-dumping, as enmity becomes a problem using this physical build. RNG's still at a bad disadvantage vs CORs with their 100% uptime -48% dt. Malignance sure helped RNG in this respect, but you know NMs only TP your *** in your WS set.

I’m actually curious if SE has the NM AI set up to hold it’s TP for up to some seconds UNLESS the player with hate WSs or Casts and then it Reacts and TPs you in the face when you’re most vulnerable. Wouldn’t be hard to code and would sure explain some of the bad luck we get xD
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By Ragnarok.Nightmarelord 2020-01-08 08:04:59
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I'm lost on why we think rng will ever get close to cor.

rng beating cor, is like koga beating masa.

until se fixes rng all we can do really is wait.

Soon as a rng gets close, a cor just comes back from their semi-afk and wins.

The only thing we really need is validation of the new ammos working or not (assumed they dont)
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-01-08 08:24:52
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Jimmyballsack said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
If for some reason you wanted to use a 1h build, /DRG may be stronger than /WAR since the recent DRG job changes. Subjob Fencer is only 200 TP Bonus and (for these purposes) a largely irrelevant crit rate +3% (though yeah, DA+10% is also relevant). /DRG is 7% WSD on all hits of every WS.

Still, even without a K.Club, I'm inclined to think that the significantly faster TP speed from DW is the better option over any single wielding subjob. I have recently found that to be the case on Savage Blade WAR (even without an offhand TP Bonus magian axe), and that's consistent with what seems like the general consensus from the recent WAR 1h/oddball weapon thread.

I can see the /drg thing, especially for hate-dumping, as enmity becomes a problem using this physical build. RNG's still at a bad disadvantage vs CORs with their 100% uptime -48% dt. Malignance sure helped RNG in this respect, but you know NMs only TP your *** in your WS set.

I’m actually curious if SE has the NM AI set up to hold it’s TP for up to some seconds UNLESS the player with hate WSs or Casts and then it Reacts and TPs you in the face when you’re most vulnerable. Wouldn’t be hard to code and would sure explain some of the bad luck we get xD
There's nothing so particular as that AFAIK, but mobs do become willing to use their WSs at lower TP thresholds when their HP is lower, so a WS or spell that drops them to the next threshold can definitely provoke them into using it immediately if they already have the right amount of TP.
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