IiPunch - Monk Guide

(127 + 30) * (1 - 0.5 - 0.15) * (450 * 0.2 / 60) = 82.425 / second

(64 + 30 + 64 + 30) * (1 - 0.5 - 0.25) * (386 * 0.2 / 60) * 0.65 = 39.3076~


SAM (Doji) with 65 SB and MNK (Spharai) with 75 SB and Penance, feeds less than half per second than SAM.

Then go try it out, proof has been laid out multiple times in this thread.

You're entire argument is built on a false equivalence. 50 SB is not even close to Monk levels of Subtle Blow. You're literally giving 3x as much TP than a 75% SB Penance Monk. As Thorny has pointed out before, the next closest option puts you at half of what a capped Monk has.


This is another false equivalence. It would only be true if the scenario of falling below haste cap was just as common as a White Mage forgetting to use Auspice, not being geared to have Auspice, or your group just not having a White Mage altogether.

There is no such thing as numerical "proof" of how much more/less likely your group is to succeed with X amount of TP feed. All that has been laid on in this thread math-wise are calculations showing how MNK generates the least enemy TP. Great.

That still doesn't say how much impact all that reduced TP feed will actually have in practice, and that's going to be a group-by-group question based mainly on how aware your backline is. I think *everyone* here agrees that there is basically no fight in the game that REQUIRES your melees to have heavy Subtle Blow. So it really comes down to the question of how much TP reduction do you need to use to make it "easy enough" for your backline to keep people alive and win the fight comfortably. That's not something anyone can answer with math.

For most groups, as a practical matter, I think the answer is probably that Subtle Blow can be helpful on some fights but you will likely have more than enough TP reduction by using jobs like SAM/DRG/DNC/WAR/whatever, with capped Subtle Blow and whatever SB II gear they can equip, to make it easy enough for your support to do their jobs. Doesn't really rise to the level where MNK makes it SO MUCH EASIER that it's worth the hit to DPS, even though people are trying to rationalize that this is MNK's magical niche in 2018 FFXI.

I'm not even against using MNK. Go for it! I just don't agree that there is some perfect scenario that the masses are overlooking where MNK truly shines. It's a DPS job that does less damage than the other DPS jobs, but honestly that's still enough to succeed on pretty much any melee-viable content.

It's been one of MNK's best features since salvage. It isn't even about being 2017/18. I can't remember the last time I lost a fight by timing out, but it does happen when mobs spam TP moves even in semi competent groups.

I'd also like to point out that all of the groups who actually put a concerted effort into investing and playing Monk in today's content unanimously report back that Subtle Blow II + Penance make the content much easier and that it's still a viable job despite the DPS loss because of this. Having a Monk friend in your LS doesn't count either. That's like saying your friends with a black guy so you can't be racist.

Although that I see your point Capuchin since:
30% inhibit TP gain for a 100s /1.4 min for a 3 min recast Chi Blast requires random deal or a second MNK to keep it up.

Yet, I hardly see any issues bringing 2 monks alongside side your desired SB DDs for longer fights in your alliance.

Or use Chi Blast at 50% then at 25% with one MNK.

One could even argue that with a MNK in [SB] alliance your chances of failing is dramatically decreased due to penance alone.
Not sure if it stacks with Yurin

my ***

should be 35% with relic augment

Up to the group then. If you and your party feel more secure with the reduced TP feed from using MNKs, knock yourself out.

I'm guessing that in reality, most groups will see no significant difference on win rate by swapping out that MNK for a SB+65 SAM. And the SAM group probably wins faster. But hey, up to you and the people you play with.

Perhaps your case for MNK could be to make the fight as easy as possible when you're still learning new melee content and you're not worried about timing out - then gradually take the MNK training wheels off and replace with stronger DPS for future farming.

I don't think it's just bandwagon jumping that's causing most of the FFXI community to not bother using MNKs for this purpose though. It's because using MNKs is a slower way of doing the same fight for what most people reasonably perceive as giving you no major increase in chance of success.

Most of these reports also seem to focus on content like Omen bosses that are generally regarded as fairly easy even without MNK. Take that for what you will.


Fair enough. If you have the free slots and the content doesn't have HP scaling, fine... toss in MNKs even if just for Chi Blasting with Penance. The more melees you get though, the more the advantage of slowing TP moves is removed. So you might want the MNK to stand back and not even melee, and JUST serve as a Penance-bot. (Unless your backline can handle the faster TP moves anyway, in which case why exactly are we talking about this kind of setup?)

AFAIK it does, but Yurin is notoriously unreliable on content of any significant difficulty since it can be (and usually will be) outright resisted. For anything dangerous enough that you're really considering a Subtle Blow strategy, it's a safe assumption that Yurin will be ineffective.

Putting my NIN hat on, I'd really like to see both Myoshu: Ni (adding Subtle Blow II) and Yurin: Ni (with a large accuracy bonus)!

Is it really that difficult to admit that Monk with sb and penance makes a significant difference in TP spam and survivability? Your argument is that "Monk slows down the fight" but constant TP spam can make it challenging for survivability as well. Healers benefit from this approach.

There are benefits to either strategy, and they are based on specific instances. You'd have to be blind to claim it's not that much different with Monk sb setup...

Does MNK make a difference in TP spam? Yes, that's clear.

Does it make a difference in survivability? I don't really think so for most groups, if you're comparing to a non-MNK setup that otherwise makes an effort to at least hit SB cap.

Do MNK if you wanna do MNK. But don't act like it's shocking that people have reasonable disagreement at how valuable the reduced TP feed really is to them.

What needs to happen is videos.

3 Minute "omen boss" with Sam as only DD

5 Minute same boss with 2 mnks

Count tp moves. see if it ends up exactly the same because less tp feed but more time.

Subtle blow would be a great thing, if its literally only mnks tping. as soon as you take more than 2 dd subtle blow is 100% useless. When monk starts giving literal zero tp per hit, or starts taking tp per hit(tpdrainsamba or a much stronger plague), then you've got a debate.

total number of tp moves isn't really a relevant metric, it's the tp move density which has been the argument the whole time

Exactly this. Saevel is the only person counting TP moves per fight. There are a few potentially worthwhile data points to be referenced here:

Mob TP Moves/Player TP Moves : This is a Saevel-only metric. It means essentially nothing.

Mob TP Moves/Time : This is an important metric. It indicates how many casts your mages will be able to do between each tp move. As melee damage and spells are largely irrelevant in today's ffxi, having 25 seconds between TP allows your mages 6-7 casts to 'clean up' that TP move before the next hits. Having 10 seconds between them allows the mages only 2-3 casts.

Mob TP Moves/Fight : This has value, if and only if, TP moves independantly pose a threat. If each TP move has a chance of killing someone who is already fully healed and has debuffs removed, you would care about this. Otherwise, the concern is whether you had a chance to get that person fully healed and debuffs removed.

Chance of Death/Fight : This is the value you really want, as far as indicating survivability. When independant TP moves have no chance of killing a fully healed, status-free, dps.. increasing the time between tp moves will DRASTICALLY reduce chance of death per fight. If, theoretically, each TP move runs a chance of death by itself, MNK would not help much and adding more tp/fight would increase chance of death per fight.

There are very, very few cases where deaths happen because one TP move is just so powerful you cannot survive it. Examples would be fights with significant adds, fights with high damage spells, and death TP that cannot be avoided(are there any of these left..? I think most are gaze or doom). Deaths primarily occur when TP moves cannot be cleaned up as quickly as the next TP comes.

That's a solid proof of "you suck" if we've ever seen one. In the high end community, the primary source of deaths is surprise WTFBBQ moments where you get dealt thousands of damage in under 2s. In those situations there is nothing the healer could of done. Healers are expected to know how to use Curaga and have reaction speeds better then a corpse.

The entire argument so far that the cheerleaders are clinging to is for *really* *really* shitty WHMs. Is your group healer really stupider then Apruru and if so shouldn't you be working on fixing that then trying to gaslight the community into thinking otherwise? As Capuchin has said, what content are you possibly doing that using MNK lets you win while using <anything else> means you lose?

We've already settled that the TP feed issue was vastly overblown because the AI floor limits it's effect and that NM's get TP from sources other then us hitting them. So far the only valid argument put forth is "our healer sucks but we don't want to fix that". Having a fight finished quicker is the definition of "easier", meta using AC SMN proves that beyond question.

If MNK was even half of what the cheerleaders are saying, then the community would be using MNK's for everything (when not using AC SMN). The gaming community not only doesn't use MNK for anything, it openly mocks and laughs at those that try. That speaks volumes by itself for the argument that MNK is severely under-powered.

Ways to fix monk.

1. Give them about 10,000 HP

2. Make Chi Blast freeze enemy for 2 mins

3. Every time monk misses an attack the next attack will hit for 3 times damage including WS.

They wouldn't do it because it would be work. But if they just created a stance that increased dmg of all attacks and WS DMG. That would be fine. Just lower HP or something as a penalty. Enough dmg to make it worthwhile and enough risk you could die.

If you're dying to WTFBBQ damage in under 2s, surely that means you aren't wearing enough DT gear. Could you provide an example of a monster that will kill you in under 2s while wearing the set you should be wearing? By the way, how much is it overkilling you by? Could, say, an extra 30% hp have saved you?

Oh, and if you could stop trying to use my hypothetical situations as an excuse to insult my ability, that'd be great. I mess with MNK from time to time, I don't need it or use it as my primary setup. That doesn't mean I can't recognize it's value.

You don't need to be 'slower than Apururu' to benefit from having twice the potential casts. 10 seconds between tp moves gives you one -na, a curaga, and a stoneskin recast. If someone isn't in a party with a WHM and you need to single target them, you lose your stoneskin recast. If you have to recast your barspell, throw up auspice, etc, that comes out of it. The global cast cooldown plays a large role, and if the worst of the TP moves happens several times in a row you eventually make a sacrifice somewhere. That's how deaths and wipes happen, even with the best WHM in the world.

Yes, in a perfect situation, you can rectify almost any TP move with a quick Curaga3/4/5 > single -na. However, some apply multiple debuffs. Sometimes you need to buff in between. These may be things that perfect groups don't need to worry about as much, I certainly have never argued MNK is good for a group that is already destroying the content. This whole thing is a waste of time, because you can't see past your own bias.

No it doesn't. Before Frod and his "SMN all the things" campaign, people had no idea something like that was even possible, nor was SMN that highly sought out for 90% of content clearing. Now even gimps are employing the strategy without even thinking twice because it's severely broken and braindead easy. The SMN perception largely was shaped by this new strategy, when previously, people stuck to more traditional setups.

Not comparing that exactly with the MNK scenario, but player popularity and perception has never been a a reliable gauge as to how useful a job is. There are people who still think "BLU ONRY" for certain content; they are stuck in that toxic mindset and have not opened their mind to new possibilities and arrangements of strategies. Other players get creative and find new ways to get things done. Just because you're not subscribed to it doesn't mean there is zero practical value in it.

Oh yes there were, and it had nothing to do with Frod. Some groups were using AC SMN with Garuda to take down Kouryu for example, but it wasn't super common because it wasn't effective. Two things happened, first was that SE nerfed NM evasion which instantly made pets physical BP's actually able to hit. Second is SE updated several SMN BP's to transfer fTP and have a higher damage ceiling. The results was many SMN's instantly started blowing stuff up, I know because I was there when they did it. It started with a few select groups that primarily merced stuff and as people witnessed the power it spread and become standard. The community meta is about three to six months behind the leading edge of tactics. If tomorrow SE made MNK OP, it would be three to six months because it become bandwagon / common strategy.


Niqumada proc causing four attacks that a MNK NM counters every one with their +Counter Damage. That total damage can easily flatten anyone because of how random it is. A NM using mighty strikes and procing a double DA on a multi-hit TP move resulting in the player taking five or more hits of crit damage. Similar situation of an NM procing a multi-attack with crits immediately before doing a high damage TP move. There are more but people should see the pattern here, it's intense spike damage that happens so fast that lag prevents the player from responding before their destroyed.

This results in two reactions. First is that if the sequence of events is rare enough and your capable of recovering, you just accept that risk and move on. You only see it one out of every ten / fifteen / thirty fights and so while it's bad it's not often enough to matter. Second is if that sequence is common enough to actually matter, then you respond by wearing a hybrid DT set which largely alleviates the issue.


You started that childish ***and now your complaining about it.

Having healed large alliance content I can say with 100% certainty that 9~10s is plenty of time to react. WTF are you talking about with stoneskin mid fight... that ***has a small AoE range meaning your standing in the worst possible spot.

Reading over all that I'm starting to see that the cheerleaders definition of "healer" is a cure bot that's set to autofollow. The AI on those, while impressive, is now where near what a real experienced healer can do. Those cure bots make bad priority decisions all the time and can easily be overloaded if they are taking care of a party. In a situation where your healer is a cure bot, then yes using MNK would dramatically increase it's effectiveness. By slowing down the pace of ***happening, the bot has more time in-between actions and the result of a bad decision isn't going to be catastrophic. The bot paralyna the BRD while the melee's have 50% HP isn't going to result in deaths when the next bad thing isn't for another 30s.

So there you go, MNK makes cure boting easier. And seeing the servers the cheerleaders are on, makes perfect sense.

So, your theoretical perfect group (again, MNK isn't recommended for perfect groups) melees into the face of MNK NMs..? You do realize they only counter if you melee from the front, right?

Which NM? SE has avoided strong physical TP moves for years due to this exact mechanic.

Barring the few NMs with instant TP, curaga5 takes 1.15 seconds and a TP move takes 2.5 seconds to ready. Unless your WHM is asleep, they can be cured. Of course, this is assuming they already had time to clean up the last TP move and are idle and watching for damage. With frequent TP, this may not be the case and your WHM is more likely to be busy. (Guess what would help this? Maybe.. a free 30% hp and a drastic reduction in the WHM's task load?)

I know where you're trying to go with this, but I meant recasting your own stoneskin. New content has increasingly more large AOEs that mages cannot stand out of range of. Thus, in addition to healing your melee you need to recast your own stoneskin for your own safety.

Maybe 'those' cure bots do, but it's not very hard to use predictive logic in a cure bot. I'm not sure how this has any relevance, besides trying to make an easy pick at my use of bots. I don't bot on MNK.

This has no relevance to the topic at hand, but I'll give you some tips anyway. A good cure bot prioritizes chance of death over all else. Throw some simple information about TP moves(range, estimated damage, debuffs) and a baseline damage/sec value into a structure about your fight and you can systematically determine on the fly who is at risk of death or not. If player is in range of TP move, with less hp than predicted damage, they are a top priority. Past that, measure number of top priority players in aoe for each potential target, and curaga the one that will save the most. If someone is vital to the fight, such as tank, you can also flag them as a must-target. In those cases, you choose the target who will cure the most top priority players while still healing the vital player.

You can even do more than that if you write your own routines for the task you're trying to accomplish. However, a one size fits all solution as described above only needs a 2 minute structure fill for tp information to be more or less as good as any real whm.

Am i reading this wrong? I feel like your both pro monk as a job depending on the situation but are throwing each other into the other field for some reason?

Just debating just to debate. You can find x number of people saying monk is terrible. And x number saying it isn't that bad.

Nothing of value has been discussed in this thread probably since it was created.

It isn't even about monk anymore. It is mostly about winning an internet argument.

It's about being honest with the job and not sugar coating it. I'm a brutally honest and direct person, some people take issue with that and get aggressive. A fraction of those people then result to internet bullying tactics which just results in a sort of arms race on who can raise the *** level the most.

My stance has always been that MNK is under-powered when compared to it's peers, which are other melee's. This is an MMO and everything must be taken in relation to everything else. Others argue that MNK shouldn't be compared to other DD's and is in it's own class. Because it's in it's own class it's therefor the best in that class, which is the line of reasoning used by cheerleaders.

Or viewed another way, there are a set of people who feel a deep psychological urge to defend Monk against any slight, real or imagined.

MNK really isn't as bad as people make it out to be if you invest the time/gil into gearing it.

Nobody is saying MNK is awesome DD. Excluding hybrids like rdm, cor, pup, game has 9 melee dd and one of them has to be last, mnk just happened to be on that spot. If MNK isnt last then another job will.

If se buff mnk today and make them as strong as war, community would still complain NIN being the worst, shadows are useless, nobody shout for them except 2 ambuscades, buff NIN etc. Or they would complain blu being the worst because blue magics are useless in zergs, nobody care about spells in endgame, buff blu, and the list goes on.

IMO, as long as a job can meet the dps check of content while having unique advantage in a way, its not broken.


Its bad because its last, people dont like the idea of being last. Its not because using mnk over war will result wipes and fails.

This is why Tier Lists in most games are generally a disservice to the average/casual gamer: The upper-end of the gaming community frowns upon character/job x because character/job x is not as strong as character/job z. What ends up happening is the lower end of the community starts seeing this disparity towards character/job x and assumes that any involvement with x is bad. They assume they cannot make it work with x, because the "elite players" said so. I have seen it in a few scenarios, most recently the FGC and the MMO side now. The tier lists start showing the trend of "popular players/jobs" and not necessarily "what will work". In FFXI, this is important, because every job will work. However, the idea that doing something slower somehow got shifted into "lolusuck", so people are so afraid to try something against the norm, for fear of being ridiculed. It's pathetic.

Most of these discussions have very little to no effect on "elite" players, who will perform very well on any job they play. They can make even Dan from Street Fighter look really good, even when he's intentionally designed to be crappy and weak. A really good player would have no issue coming MNK to any event, so these discussions about who is the best/worst is really irrelevent to you all. However, whenever casual players regularly see trends like "MNK SUCKS, BLU/SMN ONRY", that is where the real harm is done, because they end up drawing unreasonable conclusions from these conversations. You might not realize how many people read these threads and affected by it in-game, and they start follow these trends without really understanding why.

I can't tell you how many times people have said to me "I don't see many Master NINs or DRGs around. Is it good at dealing damage?". Or my favorite: "No, Ninja can't nuke in a CP/Omen card party LOL". They feel that way because they constantly hear how good other jobs are, they forget you can do neat stuff with the "lower tier" jobs. It's disingenuous. That's the biggest issue I have with the loudmouths who argue this nonsense for their own benefit. Top-end players are hardly affected, casual ones most certainly always are.