Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide

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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
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 Lye
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By Lye 2013-02-13 13:38:37
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As important as this thread is, we all need to agree not to humor any "WUT SHULD I MAKE" threads from here on out!
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-02-13 13:42:17
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Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
If you think an Amano analysis would get flamed just wait until someone touches Apocalypse.

I know that heartache.
You should maybe analyze it then, you're pretty peaceful when you talk about Apocalypse.

Made me want to log on and finish my last stage when I read this thread the other day.
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By Quetzacoatl 2013-02-13 13:42:28
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oh god, I can't wait until this is complete

SO MUCH POTENTIAL FOR AWESOME!
 
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By 2013-02-13 13:49:22
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By Quetzacoatl 2013-02-13 13:50:18
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Valefor.Angierus said: »
Need an Empyrean thread, I don't know if I should commit the time to making a Redemption.
no
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 13:50:55
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(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.

Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.

Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.

Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.

(2.) Comparison to major competitors

Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)

Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.

Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.


(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers

You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.

You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.



As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
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By LakshmiArtemas 2013-02-13 13:53:06
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I already analyzed Mandau.

Now do Gungnir!
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 13:53:48
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I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.

Quote:
somethingsomething

SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN

something something
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 Lakshmi.Phaffi
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By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 13:55:52
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i'll give a shot at bravura.

edit: i can do aegis if you'd like.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 13:59:11
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.

Quote:
somethingsomething

SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN

something something

im on it





but not rly, dat def down done erased my angon wtf vile pitchfork
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 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-13 14:04:33
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.

Quote:
somethingsomething

SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN

something something

im on it





but not rly, dat def down done erased my angon wtf vile pitchfork

If SE changes the added effect def- to stack with angon, wouldn't it rank up right under Ryu, and just above herja's?
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 14:08:40
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"right under" ryu is reaching for the stars, it'd still be at minimum 30% inferior but that would probably make it better than herja. that's not saying a lot though
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-13 14:17:10
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Fair enough. Right under, was more of in terms of rank, not like a smidge under in performance. I should have worded that differently. Still not a bad option though, if/when they changed the def-.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 14:19:22
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No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.


Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR

* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK

See how it works? Gungnir is useless.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 14:30:08
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and mnk can't wear gungnir, thats the biggest flaw
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 Lakshmi.Stepth
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By Lakshmi.Stepth 2013-02-13 14:30:53
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Gjallarhorn:


(1.) Overview

(a.) Strengths: Max potency on all of your songs at 99. 15/tick on Ballad without Daurdabla and 21/tick with makes it hard for your mages to ever run out of MP, unless you suck at Legion
Weaknesses: You can't wear your Ragnarok or Ukonvasara on BRD. You won't notice much of a change in most of your buffs until the horn is 99 (see d).
(b.) Your BRD life won't change other than having a few extra seconds of duration on your songs. BTW, did I mention that you're coming BRD?
{c.) You'll be using this 95.01% of the time while singing. Other than swapping between Daurdabla/Oneiros Harp/Angel Lyre, it's glued to your ranged spot for most casting.
(d.) Before level 90, the horn isn't better for song potency over most of the other +3 instruments. Exceptions being Ballad, Scherzo, and those delicious status resist songs. Then at 90 and beyond, you get all of that precious inventory space back! Once you hit 99, all of your songs will have at least +4 potency, some at +5, and you'll see the full potential of the horn.

(2.) Comparison to major competitors

(a.) Nothing competes with a 90+ horn.

(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers

(a.) Pick a Gjallarhorn if you are serious about getting the most out of your Bard and are fine with sometimes usually forfeiting coming other jobs that you may enjoy playing more. Did I mention you get back like 10 inventory slots after you triumphantly toss those other instruments?
(b.) Making a Daurdabla goes hand-in-hand with making a Gjallarhorn. If you were serious enough to make a horn, then you better spend the extra week to make a harp. This will further seal your fate as a perma-BRD and create many headaches for you when mindless DDs run off after they get 2 songs.
(c.) Huge Dealbreaker: No afterglow. Trust me, I put 250 marrows into the trial and was really disappointed.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 14:33:23
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Lakshmi.Phaffi said: »
i'll give a shot at bravura.

edit: i can do aegis if you'd like.

Aegis would be great!
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By LakshmiArtemas 2013-02-13 14:34:26
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Lakshmi.Stepth said: »
(a.) Strengths: Max potency on all of your songs at 99. 15/tick on Ballad without Daurdabla and 21/tick with makes it hard for your mages to ever run out of MP.

They will in Legion.

Also, the range on Daurb songs can make it easier to keep songs on melee when fighting mobs that will have knock backs if you're singing up close and personal (looking at you giants and Charlie).
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:38:34
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Actually, you know what? I'll do Guttler.

I have things to say about Guttler; I really think it's the most underrated relic.
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 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-02-13 14:39:37
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
If you think an Amano analysis would get flamed just wait until someone touches Apocalypse.

I know that heartache.
You should maybe analyze it then, you're pretty peaceful when you talk about Apocalypse.

Made me want to log on and finish my last stage when I read this thread the other day.

I'll bite. I wouldn't be a drk if I weren't a bit masochistic.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 14:40:04
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Guttler is cool. At least as a character.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 14:41:43
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Guttler and Apocalypse reserved.


Byrth and Steph have provided preliminary analyses for Mandau and Gjallarhorn.

If you'd like to add anything or contest anything, they're open for critique and commentary!
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:43:18
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The big thing is that even if the personal damage boost weren't on par with most other relics, the fact that you will most likely be alone in any situation in which you would actually use your BST means Guttler is a WAY bigger boost than the math would suggest.

What's more important; a 10% damage boost to a job you play in groups with 17 other people or a 10% damage boost to a job you play solo?
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 Shiva.Arana
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By Shiva.Arana 2013-02-13 14:45:50
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I would argue the opposite point that being the best you can be in a group setting is actually more important. Since otherwise you're pushing your weight on other people which is sad.

Also math doesn't suggest or lie about anything.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 14:49:44
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Don't beastmasters just stay away from harder NMs leaving pet onry anyway? I mean Guttler is a relic you farmed in dyna to farm more dyna and make another relic.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:56:36
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Don't beastmasters just stay away from harder NMs leaving pet onry anyway? I mean Guttler is a relic you farmed in dyna to farm more dyna and make another relic.

Not necessarily. Snarl opens up a lot of melee opportunities that BST has the gear and WS options to take advantage of (as opposed to, say, SMN). Obviously the option exists to just sic your pet on something and let it chip the NM to death (and for that you have PDT axes) and that's certainly one way to go about it, but the BST itself is actually a stronger melee than you might suspect, and it doesn't make sense to squander that when you don't have to. If an NM in question has one non-conal AoE attack that can be stunned, why wouldn't I melee?

I mean, don't get me wrong; it's true that BST is mainly a farming class these days, and the strongest argument AGAINST Guttler is that you are spending money on a job whose best function is making money. But anybody considering buying a relic for BST probably understands what BST does, and my point is that for what BST does, Guttler is amazing.
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 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2013-02-13 15:10:23
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Guttler actually makes a lot of sense, if either you plan on farming several relics for yourself, or Dynamis is your main source of money. Do enough Dynamis and the damn thing will pay for itself. That's not sexy, but there it is.
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 Asura.Draus
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By Asura.Draus 2013-02-13 15:14:27
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So should I make a guttler?
 Lye
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By Lye 2013-02-13 15:20:47
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Asura.Draus said: »
So should I make a guttler?

Your sense of humor needs some work.
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