The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-15 06:48:04
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
Because, imo, if Chango+1 can beat Monte+1 even when there is no SC then there wouldn't be much of a reason to keep Great Sword outside of MS built.


Not necessarily, It's more of a case of "Another Tool in the Toolshed" there are places where you DO NOT want to use Chango (Omen. Don't do it, accidental 99k Radiance Heals are only cute the first time before your party starts throwing things at you)


ALRIGHT back home!! Ok. Saevel, you and I both downloaded the same sheets and made the same adjustments for things. Values were missing for BRD songs but since this whole debate spurred from WS Damage, I didn't feel it necessary to worry about.

Basic Setup, mob set to trivial just to ensure that pDIF can't possibly be anything but capped. Used Regal 11 values and Chaos/Sam rolls because that's the roll choice for damn near every event I've ever seen. To your credit, I honestly did not think about Fighter's roll and that will boost Resolution a fair way but due to the importance of capping pDIF, seeing Fighter's roll is pretty rare except for Organized zergs (a MS/BR situation anyway) You can see in the Damage Tabs that Normal Chango Upheaval is ahead of Resolution.

As you can see, the WS rules are accurate and unchanged. The only change made was the addition of a DEX 10% mod due to Utu Grip.


This shot shows the breakdown of sets used as well as displaying that this was done with Boost-STR added. Make no mistake, that was the highest WSDamage I could squeeze out of both scenarios. I'm normally a user of Flamma +2 Head and Feet but Lust Head/Feet were some 3,000 Ahead of it so going to be collecting a Lust Head for experimentation (need to anyway since I'm taking up RUN)
In this scenario, Normal Chango still ahead by a small margin.

NOW we have Resolution pulling ahead but needs Boost STR and Warcry to do it. Problem with that is keeping Warcry maintained. I know it's technically possible but I honestly can not remember the last time I was partied with 3 or 4 other WARs for a singular event. Seriously, It's been years. Usually a SAM, or THF or RUN and COR or DRG or BLU or something.

Here is Chango-Unchained (Or Chango with Aug if you prefer) vs Montante +1 with Boost and Warcry. Day at the Office vs Best Case Scenario (err.. Nearly.. Again, I forgot about Fighter's Roll) and nothing was changed in any formulas, this is assuming a flat 10% Damage boost applied only to the first hit.

and Lastly, I was curious so thought I'd compare things with Fighter's Roll in the mix and..

And with Warcry the numbers become 40,727 Upheaval vs 40,929 Resolution.

I honestly don't know your numbers got so spread apart; Looking at your setup page you have the exact same format as Byrth's so I'm assuming you took and modified his/hers. Did you change something? Anyway, hopefully this can satisfy any doubts in my claims of Upheaval being just as powerful as, and moreso when perfected, than Resolution with WAR's Current Greatsword options. Never lied or fabricated. Ohhh what if WAR got Lionheart?...

I left the link to the sheet in prior post.
Added Dex Rule for Utu, Added Agoge +3 Head, Added DA Set rule for Argosy, Added Karieyh Ring +1, Added Epaminiolkjawoulknv Ring (which responded strangely by the way), Added Chango-Unchained via Copy -> Paste + Damage, Accuracy and WSD +10%, Adjusted GEO effects to Idris, Adjusted COR effects to Roll 11 on Regal.

**Edit**
THERE!! Now that that's out of the way, let us please keep discussions Open and Peaceful with lots of mutual respect and rainbow ponies. Me go sleep now.
 
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 Asura.Toralin
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By Asura.Toralin 2018-09-15 08:23:56
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Soooo how about Labraunda >.>
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 09:13:33
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
I honestly don't know your numbers got so spread apart;

Your resolution gear is way off, we can see this from the first post where you have it doing abysmal damage. Also your rounds/ws are really slow, for some reason you have Upheaval getting more TP return and WSing faster then Resolution, that would be very bad. In my setup my average cycle time is 235 for Montante +1 + Resolution which is right at 4 seconds. You have it at 304 or about 5 seconds, that's a pretty big discrepancy. As I've said for the past few pages fully buffed high powered DD's have an average cycle time of about 4s.

When I first opened that sheet it was missing ~alot~ of gear, I had to manually add almost my entire sets to the mix, then add for set bonus's and so forth. Nothing in the Upheaval build really gets a set bonus and everything is pretty much directly on the gear. You can see my actual spreedsheet linked and review my entries and data. The data tab will give you a ton of information on things like pDiff, accuracy, MA rates and so forth, that is what you want to use for discovery.

So yes a pimped Upheaval set will beat a gimped Resolution set, think we determined that a year or so ago when people were trying to argue for +WSD on resolution.

Another thing to note is these spreedsheets take into consideration over-TPing from extra melee rounds, if you check the data tab you can see where it's giving you average TP on the WS. Adding Store TP from Samurai's Roll, Carbonara and adding fighters roll has an interesting effect on Resolution, it can result in lower spill over TP but more frequent WS's from a lower cycle time. If you switch from sublime sushi to carbonara (acc capped anyway) you can see Resolutions average damage dip down but it's cycle time going down too resulting in more total WS damage.

Now that that's been settled, I'm currently in the process of tweaking stuff to include fighters roll as a standard buff. BRD super songs and Idris Fury + Frailty + Dia II + Berserk + Smite makes up capped the vast amount of time in situations where we would be WS smashing. My current TP set has something like 3% QA 10% TA 94% DA so I'm getting very little benefit from Fighter's Roll for TP gain. By swaping out some DA pieces (WAR relic legs over AF legs) for more damage or more Store TP, the letting fighters roll bring me to 100% DA, I can squeeze more damage out.

For those who don't like clicking on dropbox pictures, here is imgur so you can see it in the post.

Reso vs Upheaval @1K Spam


Reso vs Upheaval @1250


Reso and Upheaval WSD gear


Reso and Upheaval WSD max setup


Spreed Sheet link for anyone to view and see how those values came into existence.
WAR Spreedsheet

*Note*
Remember awhile back when people were asking about when the transition from DA to WSD happens and I said @2K is the ballpark where it changes modes, but in actuality it's on a slot by slot basis? Well with Chango and your minimum TP being 1750, with the average WS TP looking more like 1900~2000 WSD gear largely wins out. Our lua's have a rule for this but spreedsheet can't really distinguish between them, which is why there are two different values between 1K and WSD Max. The Upheaval DA sets are more for GAXE's like Bravura, Ukon or the newer Dynamis D one that won't be getting the large TP Bonus's.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 09:51:44
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Asura.Toralin said: »
Soooo how about Labraunda >.>

Give me a day and I can try to see how it maps out. The +40% Bonus attacks is very interesting for TP gain, yet without the 500 TP Bonus the upheavals won't be as powerful. Could end up being similar to what we saw above, quantity having a quality all it's own.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-15 10:38:10
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i thought you did everything by hand and didn't use spread sheets because they're all wrong
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 10:59:46
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So decided to do a first pass and the results were solid, though because no +DA damage I stuck with just lots of Store TP on odyssean legs. Used Flamma +2 hands, Flamma +2 body and my +12 Store TP Odyssean Legs with a perfect fighters roll. The results were very interesting, Upheaval's average damage went down but it's cycle time plummeted to 1.28 while Resolution's cycle time stayed at 1.13 but WS damage went up.


Super Tweaked setup


Super Tweaked setup gear



Looking at the data tab this is what's happening,

Before Super Tweak
Average TP return on Resolution: 307
Average TP return on Upheaval: 274
Average TP per swing on Montante +1: 304
Average TP per swing on Chango: 305
Average WS TP Resolution: 1131.04, Damage: 28415.75
Average WS TP Upheaval: 1509.56, Damage: 32346.24

After Super Tweak
Average TP return on Resolution: 307
Average TP return on Upheaval: 274
Average TP per swing on Montante +1: 327
Average TP per swing on Chango: 328
Average WS TP Resolution: 1205.92, Damage: 29440.93
Average WS TP Upheaval: 1123.45, Damage: 28026.73

Adding that Store TP allowed Chango to occasoinally get in a WS one swing earlier, which lowered it's average WS TP but increased it's WS frequency.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 11:03:14
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
i thought you did everything by hand and didn't use spread sheets because they're all wrong

Never said they were all wrong, only that melee DPS isn't a reliable metric and that the data tab needs to be carefully examined to ensure no inconsistencies. Basically don't take them as gospel and blindly accept the results without question.

I do things by hand, then compare, and if any discrepancies I hunt down (like AM3 melee damage for example).

Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
So to remind people.
If you have problems with people specifically Keep it out of the guide threads and take it either to PMs, or keep it to yourself. This is a guide, not a fight club.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-15 11:05:58
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i would love to see you do it by hand then
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 11:31:46
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
i would love to see you do it by hand then

I do it weekly, sometimes several times per week whenever I'm tweaking or fine tuning stuff. The damage formula is pretty well known and easy enough to follow. I open up a ton of tabs in notepad ++, get some macros' going and have a few instances of calc to double check everything. What I put on this forum is a very small subset of what I'll do, it's a teaching tool to show other people how the damage works so they can do their own exploration and optimization without needing someone to tell them. That is why I try to show the different steps with the whole thing wrote out in a long post with explanations and not just put the results in a quick blurb.

Austar I'm a Systems / DevOps engineer, weekly I'm creating methods for building, customizing and deploying VM's and the applications + configurations that go with them. This is in support of the various development efforts we have going on. Whatever you may think about me personally, I'm not dumb and I live in the world of automation and coding.

So again

Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
So to remind people.
If you have problems with people specifically Keep it out of the guide threads and take it either to PMs, or keep it to yourself. This is a guide, not a fight club.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-15 11:33:33
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I do it weekly, sometimes several times per week whenever I'm tweaking or fine tuning stuff.
and you've never posted any of it.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 12:03:39
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It's almost like you don't even read my posts...

Ramuh.Austar said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
I do it weekly, sometimes several times per week whenever I'm tweaking or fine tuning stuff.
and you've never posted any of it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
What I put on this forum is a very small subset of what I'll do, it's a teaching tool to show other people how the damage works so they can do their own exploration and optimization without needing someone to tell them. That is why I try to show the different steps with the whole thing wrote out in a long post with explanations and not just put the results in a quick blurb.

And for the third time

Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
So to remind people.
If you have problems with people specifically Keep it out of the guide threads and take it either to PMs, or keep it to yourself. This is a guide, not a fight club.
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By Boshi 2018-09-15 13:23:08
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Quote:
•Valorous and Odyssean augmented with at least QA+3.

Can we address how idiotic it is to put this in a guide as a base set.

In theory you could get qa3 ta3 even, and this kind of stuff would be bis for ever slot for every job.
Why not list wsd10 minimum herc aug on every 1hit ws set on every job?

Better off listing -normal augs ideal- then listing the point at which a dm aug could win

There's a difference in this, and for example another job listing bis phalanx set, then having notes on DM set that can add +1/2 on a few different pieces.
 Bismarck.Norminator
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By Bismarck.Norminator 2018-09-15 13:28:29
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Saevel I would like to see your war lua if possible.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 13:39:59
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Boshi said: »
Quote:
•Valorous and Odyssean augmented with at least QA+3.

Can we address how idiotic it is to put this in a guide as a base set.

In theory you could get qa3 ta3 even, and this kind of stuff would be bis for ever slot for every job.
Why not list wsd10 minimum herc aug on every 1hit ws set on every job?

Better off listing -normal augs ideal- then listing the point at which a dm aug could win

There's a difference in this, and for example another job listing bis phalanx set, then having notes on DM set that can add +1/2 on a few different pieces.

It's usually people wanting to humble brag about their DM augments and how awesome it makes them.

Whenever I do guidelines I try to stay away from crazy augments and within the "acceptable" realm of stuff you can normally get with lots of stones and perseverance. For me the damn odyssean legs have been the worst, traded thousands of stones and the best it's given be so far is VIT +10 WSD +4 Acc +20. For a long time I was pouring stones into the NPC trying for super augments, it would give me Acc +25 WSD +5 but no VIT, then VIT +15 but no WSD and so forth until I hit those and said "good enough". Every now and then I'll throw a few hundred stones trying for VIT 15 WSD 4 / VIT 10 WSD 5 but it's not a big deal. The hands I got a solid VIT +14 WSD +4 augment that works well and has some acc that I can't remember.

Bismarck.Norminator said: »
Saevel I would like to see your war lua if possible.

It changes daily so send me a PM and I'll respond with whats current for that day. Earlier I inserted Fighter's Roll sets and will be experimenting with those.
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-15 14:28:55
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Boshi said: »
Quote:
•Valorous and Odyssean augmented with at least QA+3.

Can we address how idiotic it is to put this in a guide as a base set.

In theory you could get qa3 ta3 even, and this kind of stuff would be bis for ever slot for every job.
Why not list wsd10 minimum herc aug on every 1hit ws set on every job?

Better off listing -normal augs ideal- then listing the point at which a dm aug could win

There's a difference in this, and for example another job listing bis phalanx set, then having notes on DM set that can add +1/2 on a few different pieces.

It's usually people wanting to humble brag about their DM augments and how awesome it makes them.

Whenever I do guidelines I try to stay away from crazy augments and within the "acceptable" realm of stuff you can normally get with lots of stones and perseverance. For me the damn odyssean legs have been the worst, traded thousands of stones and the best it's given be so far is VIT +10 WSD +4 Acc +20. For a long time I was pouring stones into the NPC trying for super augments, it would give me Acc +25 WSD +5 but no VIT, then VIT +15 but no WSD and so forth until I hit those and said "good enough". Every now and then I'll throw a few hundred stones trying for VIT 15 WSD 4 / VIT 10 WSD 5 but it's not a big deal. The hands I got a solid VIT +14 WSD +4 augment that works well and has some acc that I can't remember.

Bismarck.Norminator said: »
Saevel I would like to see your war lua if possible.

It changes daily so send me a PM and I'll respond with whats current for that day. Earlier I inserted Fighter's Roll sets and will be experimenting with those.

Same. My Ody Hands and Legs are 15 VIT WSD 5%.. but no Acc on Hands and 5 on Legs.. I would be much happier if there was at least 20 Acc to make the build more stable but.. Oseem can eat a *** lol
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-15 14:39:24
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
My Ody Hands and Legs are 15 VIT WSD 5%

Those are DM augments because the cap with Taeon stones is VIT +15 and WSD +4, with Fern it's VIT +10 WSD +5. 1 WSD = 3~5 VIT depending so it's fine either way. Pellucid gives you a guaranteed roll on attack / acc.


https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Escha_Rewards/Arcane_Glyptics_Inscription#Augmentation_4

And yes Oseem can just f*ck off.
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By Boshi 2018-09-15 14:43:57
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I spent a very long time trying to get dex15/critd4 herc legs and dex15/wsd4 herc body.


The result were really sweet agi15 wsd4 blade:hi pieces. (and now legs R.I.P.)
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-15 17:03:33
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Oops meant 4% but yeah. After afew thousand stones and nearly running out of Silt. Twice. Gave up. Now I just wait for DM Campaigns for Oseem to callously laugh in my face as he hands me Acc+4 Pet: MAB +30 and QA +1...
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By BlaTheTaru 2018-09-15 18:57:53
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Oops meant 4% but yeah. After afew thousand stones and nearly running out of Silt. Twice. Gave up. Now I just wait for DM Campaigns for Oseem to callously laugh in my face as he hands me Acc+4 Pet: MAB +30 and QA +1...
My life.
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By DaneBlood 2018-09-16 22:11:28
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Quick question jsut because i need to do c some cleanup

Which to keep:
Svarga (dmg+39 atk+12 acc +12)
or
Instigator ( and what path is best?)
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-17 03:32:43
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I liked Instigator a lot. I got to keep a near permanent Berserk as well as +6 Store TP. I did B since I needed the accuracy.
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By Whit 2018-09-17 08:04:52
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Has anyone seen the augments on the Warrior’s Bead Necklace +1/2? Bgwiki only shows NQ
 Asura.Fiasko
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By Asura.Fiasko 2018-09-17 09:01:53
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Add 1% DA and 5 STR+DEX per +1.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-17 09:04:10
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Whit said: »
Has anyone seen the augments on the Warrior’s Bead Necklace +1/2? Bgwiki only shows NQ

It's pretty easy to guess

STR & DEX +15
DA +7%
HP +70 (this one was harder to guess but it's probably that)
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By SimonSes 2018-09-17 09:06:18
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Asura.Fiasko said: »
Add 1% DA and 5 STR+DEX per +1.

All the other necks that has +10 to 2 stats end up with +12 on +1 and +15 on +2, so I guess not really +5 STR and DEX per tier in this example. You probably confused by necks that start with +15 on NQ.
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By devasbismarck 2018-09-18 13:27:17
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which augs are best for a ws jse cape the DA or WSD? Also how do you value modifiers like vit and str vs WSD %?
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By Justuas 2018-09-18 13:31:53
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devasbismarck said: »
which augs are best for a ws jse cape the DA or WSD? Also how do you value modifiers like vit and str vs WSD %?
Follow-up question specifically for Ukko's Fury cape. What augments for that?
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