The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

Language: JP EN DE FR
New Items
2023-11-19
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Warrior » The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
First Page 2 3 ... 124 125 126 ... 224 225 226
Offline
Posts: 1731
By geigei 2018-09-13 09:58:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I parsed several dyna bosses, SC dmg is huge contribution, dunno what saevel is smoking right now but i want some.
[+]
 Sylph.Darkside
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Kensai98
Posts: 230
By Sylph.Darkside 2018-09-13 10:05:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'm pretty sure he's talking zerg only mobs. Kirin/Woc etc. ***that dies in 90sec or less. In that short time span with everyone going all out and in most cases Reso spamming, Skillchains are much less likely. Where a dyna boss with is shear number of HP is more of an endurance fight and obviously Skillchains can and should be worked in there.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 8140
By Afania 2018-09-13 10:07:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
1) I count RUN tank as DDs because I like faster runs. So I whip them until they start DDing. :D so yeah in a 6 man pt there are at least 3 person count as dps. 2 of them happened to main fragmentation ws.

2) we can keep talking about how sc never happen in theory if everyone spams. In reality, they do. Don't ask me why, ask the game. >.>

3) discussing scoreboard v.s Kparser is completely missing the point. You don't need Kparser to see SC can happen.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 8140
By Afania 2018-09-13 10:16:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Darkside said: »
I'm pretty sure he's talking zerg only mobs. Kirin/Woc etc. ***that dies in 90sec or less. In that short time span with everyone going all out and in most cases Reso spamming, Skillchains are much less likely. Where a dyna boss with is shear number of HP is more of an endurance fight and obviously Skillchains can and should be worked in there.

Here is the thing, when this entire discussion just started, we didn't specify WoC or ambuscade or dyna. And I certainly agree that reso is better on WoC because MS.

It's very obvious that Saevel favors multi stepping with cor in ambu and tank not DDing, but that's not the case some other people.

If NM takes good amount of sc dmg, and run cor both DDing, then sc will contribute significant amount of dmg if WAR uses upheaval instead of resolution.
[+]
 Sylph.Darkside
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Kensai98
Posts: 230
By Sylph.Darkside 2018-09-13 10:23:49
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Afania said: »
1) I count RUN tank as DDs because I like faster runs. So I whip them until they start DDing. :D so yeah in a 6 man pt there are at least 3 person count as dps. 2 of them happened to main fragmentation ws.

2) we can keep talking about how sc never happen in theory if everyone spams. In reality, they do. Don't ask me why, ask the game. >.>

3) discussing scoreboard v.s Kparser is completely missing the point. You don't need Kparser to see SC can happen.
I can't speak for anyone else but what I am saying is this. Never have I ever said skillchains dont happen in zergs. I actually prefer doing multistep skillchains whenever possible. That being said:

Parse vs SB is a viable point as I have seen on many occasion SB putting in Skillchains dmg that doesn't exist. Not all the skillchain dmg is wrong but its not accurate. This actually helps your point as SB also doesn't calculate Radiance or Umbra into skillchain Dmg. That's my only point here.

Zergs skillchains do happen however they are less likely to happen as the length of zerg fights is typically pretty short and therefore skillchain dmg is not as big a contributing factor as it would be in say a Dyna boss fight etc.

Lets use this example, if you have Run, War and Drk all doing Reso spam, the only 1 that can skillchain is the Run and that's only if he's got Lionheart. Again, if you use SB here the numbers will be skewed because if the Run hits a Radiance its not going to show up and the skillchain dmg reported is not correct.

I would have the Cor doing Savage Blade spam which also unfortunately doesn't skillchain with Reso.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-09-13 10:32:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Darkside said: »
Lets use this example, if you have Run, War and Drk all doing Reso spam

In a realistic scenario, DRK is spamming Torcleaver, and that does chain with Resolution.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-13 10:44:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Darkside said: »
I'm pretty sure he's talking zerg only mobs

Not like I haven't said that a half dozen times already. WS spam situations are by definition zerg style fights.

geigei said: »
I parsed several dyna bosses, SC dmg is huge contribution, dunno what saevel is smoking right now but i want some.

Learn to read.


Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Sylph.Darkside said: »
Lets use this example, if you have Run, War and Drk all doing Reso spam

In a realistic scenario, DRK is spamming Torcleaver, and that does chain with Resolution.

DRK + WAR + RUN will produce very few SC's in their all going full out, even if they used compatible WS's. The DRK and WAR alone will be WSing every few seconds with the RUN's time depending on how much their devoting to "tanking" vs "DDing". If it's just WAR + DRK and they are using compatible SC's and are willing to hold a few seconds they could sync their TP gain such that each is WSing 3s after the other one, both will be riding at near 2K TP but that's fine cause SC damage.

But hey not like you even bother reading or even know how SC's form.
Offline
Posts: 8140
By Afania 2018-09-13 10:48:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Darkside said: »
Afania said: »
1) I count RUN tank as DDs because I like faster runs. So I whip them until they start DDing. :D so yeah in a 6 man pt there are at least 3 person count as dps. 2 of them happened to main fragmentation ws.

2) we can keep talking about how sc never happen in theory if everyone spams. In reality, they do. Don't ask me why, ask the game. >.>

3) discussing scoreboard v.s Kparser is completely missing the point. You don't need Kparser to see SC can happen.
I can't speak for anyone else but what I am saying is this. Never have I ever said skillchains dont happen in zergs. I actually prefer doing multistep skillchains whenever possible. That being said:

Not you. My post was direct toward Saevels claim that SC almost never happen with 2+ DD, which is false.

Sylph.Darkside said: »
Parse vs SB is a viable point as I have seen on many occasion SB putting in Skillchains dmg that doesn't exist.

Yeah sure, but my post was not direct toward you again, but about someone went on bashing scoreboard as "eyeballing" and Kparser is much better tool when tool quality wasn't the point.

You don't need a 100% accurate tool to see SC can happen. I'm not here to argue SC worth 10% pt dps, or 20% or 30%. I'm only saying "SC almost never happen with 2+ DD" is false.

Sylph.Darkside said: »
I would have the Cor doing Savage Blade spam which also unfortunately doesn't skillchain with Reso.

Reso doesn't sc with savage blade is the entire reason why people fight for upheaval here. Upheaval just has MUCH better SC property, and not far behind reso without MS. Probably even stronger this update.
 Asura.Chiaia
VIP
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Demmis
Posts: 1652
By Asura.Chiaia 2018-09-13 10:56:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Darkside said: »
This actually helps your point as SB also doesn't calculate Radiance or Umbra into skillchain Dmg
Just wanted to say this won't be the case much longer I committed a fix to dev the other day.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2018-09-13 12:01:13
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Bismarck.Gippali
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Gippali
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Gippali 2018-09-13 12:05:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I honestly think that one of the mods gets sexually excited with this stuff to allow it to constantly go on. Same argument, same 2-3 people, same *** forum.
Offline
Posts: 371
By Justuas 2018-09-13 12:39:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Gippali said: »
I honestly think that one of the mods gets sexually excited with this stuff to allow it to constantly go on. Same argument, same 2-3 people, same *** forum.
We have more than one mod?
[+]
 Valefor.Yandaime
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Yandaime
Posts: 748
By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-13 16:04:40
Link | Quote | Reply
 
DirectX said: »
How about not arguing about the past which is irrelevant and put new weapons through spreadsheet already? Pretending SC don't exist, let's see the numbers.

Almost done updating the Spreadsheets, Direct. Changed the cRatio cap, added gear sets and bonuses, all I have to do now is add WAR’s Gift Bonuses (Acc,Attack,DA,etc) into the Data Page (or was it Melee Page? Not at my PC) so everything is accurate. I’m not fully excel savvy so I’m not able to add a string for Smite II (+19.5% Attack for 2-H) so will have to just apply it to Utu Grip instead for now.

Whoever’s been keeping the DRG sheer updated has been doing fantastic; lots of tables and strings added, fully detailed COR BRD and GEO buffs and stuff.. bravo.

I’ve been working 13 hour night shifts or I’d be done already, sorry for the wait. I want to know where things stand now too.
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-13 16:53:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Amazing how often you move the goal post whenever someone debunks your BS.

Never moved the goal posts once. Instead people keep redefining their statements.

Quote:
The result was people not understanding the SC window with a minimum wait time making it such that 2+ DD's almost never SC, solo DD always SC's and just 2 DD's SC sometimes.

People who have personal problems decide to reinterpret "sometimes" and "almost never" in a WS spam situation as "absolutely never in all situations". I call people out on their BS and they fly into a rage and make things personal.

Everything said so far as been just a giant strawman argument.

Hell it's even here

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain

Quote:
Skillchains take place when two abilities with appropriate skillchain properties are used subsequently, in a valid order, and within a the necessary time window (3-10 seconds). The following abilities can give Skillchain properties:

Two DD's who both have a ~4s average cycle time will be going with 1~3s of each other, meaning the majority of their WS's will be within 1~2s and thus not past the 3s period required for a SC to form, occasionally the timing will line up such that one is going 3s after the other one and you can get a SC. Going beyond 2 DD's and the probability of there being at least 3s between WS's gets really small. It's the 3s minimum window that is the wall here. DD's wsing withing 1s of each other will not produce a SC, wsing within 2s of each other will not produce a SC, there needs to be 3s of time elapsed between WS's. High end buffs DD's get TP every ~4 seconds on average, in order for there to be any significant amount of "random SC's" occurring they would need to be WSing every ~6s, even longer for more then 2 DD's.

Now there are two ways around it, if it's just 2 DD's they could try to wait on each other and sync their TP moves, they sacrifice quite a bit of damage going from 4s average cycle to 6~7s average cycle (minimum required in order for non-stop SC's to occur), so there must be a really good reason like the target taking bonus damage from SC's. In that situation it's almost always better to do a coordinated multi-step as that would yield far better results then playing slow and hoping for the best. The second way is to just be dumb and either have really slow reaction times or be under-buffed and only getting TP to WS every 6~7 seconds naturally.

Nowhere has anyone said or shown anything that disproves the above statement. It's all about average cycle time and that 3s minimum period for a window to form. If SE lowered that window to 1s then everything would change.

What I usually see is people trying to use 6 man setups focusing on doing SC's to argue against "more then 2 DD's in a zerg will rarely see SC's", which is like saying that lemons aren't sour because potatoes are brown. Or more precisely "SC's occur in zergs because Chewbacca lives on Endor". In WS spam situations with multiple DD's the total SC damage will amount to low to mid single digits, less then 5~10% of the WS's done will form a SC.
 Sylph.Shadowlina
Forum Moderator
Lockstylin'
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6115
By Sylph.Shadowlina 2018-09-13 18:46:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
So to remind people.
If you have problems with people specifically Keep it out of the guide threads and take it either to PMs, or keep it to yourself. This is a guide, not a fight club.
Offline
Posts: 1731
By geigei 2018-09-13 19:04:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
This is a guide
to stalk people and delete posts cause nothing better to do irl.
[+]
 Leviathan.Andret
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Andret
Posts: 1000
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-13 20:29:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
So can someone run the simulator on Upheaval vs Resolution assuming WS spam and no SC?

They seem really close to me at 1000-1250tp

Also, does the ftp bonus of resolution applies to all the hits when you get higher TP? Like 1750+250 would give 1.5ftp on each of the hit?
 Ramuh.Austar
Offline
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
user: Austar
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-13 20:33:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
i can do it by hand if you give me all the stats I'd need
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-13 22:23:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Andret said: »
Also, does the ftp bonus of resolution applies to all the hits when you get higher TP? Like 1750+250 would give 1.5ftp on each of the hit?

Yes, the fTP is transferred across all hits.

Leviathan.Andret said: »
They seem really close to me at 1000-1250tp

They are, everything I've done has Resolution edging it out but that was before the recent update. With the updated Chango Upheaval should win now but I'd still like to be sure that what we think the bonus does it actually does.
 Valefor.Yandaime
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: Yandaime
Posts: 748
By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-14 15:17:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Alright DirectX, I redownloaded Byrth's updated WAR Spreadsheet, Only had to add some Set bonuses, DEX Mod for Utu Grip and other small stuff.

Ragnarok - Aug loses to Montante in raw WS Damage, Wins slightly during Mighty Strikes + Brazen Rush in WS Damage (by literally 350~) So in the grand scheme of things, it'll be a case of if you need Acc, use Rag. If you don't, use Monte.

Also have lots of other fun things to share and I'll be posting all results complete with pictures when I get home from work so Early Morning or afternoon incase I pass out when I get home lol.

Link to Byrth's Spreadsheet if anyone wants to play around with things themselves:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19YIAvnHiitx2YSWa-jQ31GlRCgteuQgK/view

Like I said, only thing missing was a 10% DEX mod for Utu grip and Set Boosts for things like Argosy and Lustratio. Both can be added at the 'Other Lists' Tab. If you don't know how to create your own strings (I don't) simply take one of the existing tables that aren't needed (Like Askar or Lava) and change the names and values to something you actually need referenced. As long as the Gears have the same exact name, the spreadsheet will pick it up and apply set bonuses accordingly; ex: Flamma +2
 Leviathan.Andret
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Andret
Posts: 1000
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-14 19:33:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Well I plugged in the numbers using the spreadsheets. I used the front page gear low-mid acc gear. Capped Atk...etc.

Un-augmented Chango looses to Montante+1 by like 40DPS but wins once you use Warcry by 39-ish DPS. Roughly 1% since 5100+ DPS.

Aug-Chango wins at 115+ DPS without Warcry. About 300+ DPS with Warcry.

I think if a SC proc every once in a while for even 5% of the total damage then Chango probably wins.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9768
By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-14 20:32:20
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ok fixed the spreedsheet, was missing tons of gear and stuff. The DA Damage+ isn't in there but that's just for TP Phase and not really important here. Also doesn't have Honor March and doesn't allow song+ above 5, hell doesn't have any of the new BRD updates. Doesn't have support for Boost-VIT though Boost-STR is there, 25 STR would help Reso more then 25 VIT would help Upheaval. Also the DEX +10% benefits Resolution ~slightly~ more then Upheaval because Reso's gear has more DEX on it, it's only a few points though.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ebowdc5088xtpn/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20War%20-%20160513.ods?dl=0

Here are the screen captures, Montante +1 Resolution wins against Chango Upheaval by a fairly small margin

This is @1000 TP

https://www.dropbox.com/s/602tg8yijgqqx1m/Resolution%20vs%20Upheaval%201K.png?dl=0

And @1250 TP (Chango @2K) which is when Upheaval changes modes

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9cd7rnrpkgknsf2/Resolution%20vs%20Upheaval%201250.png?dl=0

With new Chango update it should now beat it.

Interesting note, if I use Carbonara for food the total DPS of Montante +1 pulls further ahead of Chango though the WS average drops slightly. The cause of this is the WS cycle time going from 301 (1.78 Rounds per WS) to 257 (1.35 Rounds per WS) while Upheaval doesn't change. I'm using lucky (not perfect) Samurai's Roll with Regal and lucky (not perfect) Fighter's Roll with Regal and Job bonus. Changing to perfect helps both for total damage but doesn't change the dynamic. Basically the extra TP return from Resolution (lots of Store TP in the WS set) push's the number of hits required down for less TP overage but more WS's per minute.

That being said I wouldn't trust total DPS very much because it's lacking the 20~31% bonus damage from DA's which is a significant boost to melee phase DPS. I was specifically looking for average WS damage potential.
 Sylph.Cherche
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-14 21:05:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
That capped fstr tho.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2018-09-15 04:43:25
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Leviathan.Andret
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Andret
Posts: 1000
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-15 04:54:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Because, imo, if Chango+1 can beat Monte+1 even when there is no SC then there wouldn't be much of a reason to keep Great Sword outside of MS built.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2018-09-15 04:59:57
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
First Page 2 3 ... 124 125 126 ... 224 225 226
Log in to post.