New PLD 2-hour

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New PLD 2-hour
 Caitsith.Heimdall
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By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-10-19 13:43:45
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Fairy.Ghaleon said: »
that wouldn't fix anything for Pld at all, it would be right back to square one.

why would you wear it on a Pld when you could wear it on a War or Mnk and hold hate, tank effectively, AND do [a lot] more damage over time?

Because it would let the pld have a higher enemity cap then people not wearing it so lets them hold hate over them. So it lets the pld do their job when needing to tank unless some douche tries wearing one also.
 Bismarck.Zagen
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By Bismarck.Zagen 2012-10-19 13:47:13
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Caitsith.Heimdall said: »
Fairy.Ghaleon said: »
that wouldn't fix anything for Pld at all, it would be right back to square one.

why would you wear it on a Pld when you could wear it on a War or Mnk and hold hate, tank effectively, AND do [a lot] more damage over time?

Because it would let the pld have a higher enemity cap then people not wearing it so lets them hold hate over them. So it lets the pld do their job when needing to tank unless some douche tries wearing one also.
If you don't need a PLD to tank, why would them having a higher cap matter?
[+]
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2012-10-19 14:07:19
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I think an piece of gear to *** with the enmity cap would actually be impossible to implement anyways, no? They would have to work the entire structure of how hate is done (which I think they said they will work on because of all the requests the new director got that day he opened the forums). Also making it all jobs would be asinine really. You'd always have those mages/support jobs that would wear it just to take hate and watch the world burn. Also if they COULD make such a piece it really would be pld/rnf/war/nin only because they are the big tanks. Would make no sense to make it for other jobs.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-10-19 14:56:04
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I wouldn't really count NIN as one of the big tanks these days. It's okay as a lowman tank against monsters where it can effectively DD for hate, but it struggles on high-level content and many of the spells that it relied on at 75 are much less effective due to the RDM nerf. Even on lower targets it's kind of lackluster since it's not a particularly good DD, though it does reasonably well if you don't have outside buffs.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-10-19 15:07:13
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slappydappy86 said: »
Rune Fencer can use Great Sword, so all they need to do is spam Resolution and keep hate just like the DRKs do, except they will get the added benefits of their new buffs to make them a tank.
Keep in mind Resolution's attack penalty and DRK's massive attack buffs + LR/Desperate Blows. They'll still have to put in work. Also, bear in mind the implications of a low hate cap. Dealing high damage doesn't automatically translate into holding hate over fights lasting more than 20-60seconds.

Quote:
I think they have already said they have absolutely no intention of changing anything having to do with the enmity cap. Also, they have said PLD will not be getting any abilities that would allow them to manipulate enmity.
They really don't have a choice at this point. Something has to change with regards to enmity. It needed to be changed at 75, it definitely needs to be changed now.

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Most logical road for SE to take will be the latter. Bigger, stronger monsters that mercilessly wreak havoc on DDs. I'm thinking Adoulin will be the time they unveil them too. However we are getting a taste of it already with mobs like Odin V2.
Because that option has worked so well. Some NMs can already one- or two-shot DDs without PDT/EA/Scherzo/PD, and the complaints against this approach have been manifest because it turns everything into a mindless zergfest.

Additionally:
-The only thing PLD adds over a DD at this point is shield blocks, as any DD can cap PDT and several can cap PDT while wearing Shadow Mantle and/or Nocturnus Helm. This isn't nearly enough to turn otherwise lethal monsters into reasonably survivable ones, especially since high level monsters will uncap even an Ochain's block rate.
-Creating monsters that a PLD/Rune Fencer can survive but DDs can't sidelines roughly half of the jobs that aren't already sidelined on high-level content.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-10-19 15:10:17
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Rune Fencer's relevancy hinges on the power and diversity of runes. Until we know what they do there's no point bringing them into any current argument.
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By Voren 2012-10-22 08:32:34
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For what it's worth here's my two cents.

As an aspiring PLD (I aspire to have better gear) I see a lot of people simply saying PLD can't hold hate. I won't argue this because to do so would be to invite an onslaught of buttrape comments.

What I will say is have you maybe considered that the heavy DD's have forgotten how to play effectively due to Abyssea?

I can hear the sarcasm already, save it. It USE to be that DD/THF was effective at helping to control hate while allowing for some decent numbers.DRK/THf for instance could Trick Attack and weapon skill transfering hate.

Also, apparently Thieves have been slacking in their jobs or parties simply don't use them anymore, this, to me, is kind of a fail point. Any party can spare 1 heavy DD slot for a THF.

Also, if you're not a PLD for the love of the gods take your merits OUT of Enmity + and apply them to Enmity -. That's a 10 point difference between PLD and DD Enmity.

DRG can slough hate onto whomever is standing oposite of them, yet another effective way to keep hate on the PLd.

With all this said, SE really needs to adjust how hate works...period. A PLD, properly geared, can, by far, take a ton more physical and magic damage than any of the DD's, this includes MNK (sorry epeen MNK elitists, just because you have more HP doesn't mean you take less damage). PLD is the only job that can get above the 50% cap on MDT, using Aegis (99), I can't be sure it's 100% negation as I don't have one yet. The only thing PLd lacks is hate control, and a new JA or item isn't going to do a damn thing except waste time, money, and a gear slot.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-10-22 08:46:28
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If you can win with DDs going all out and no PLD holding hate, then what benefit is there to "holding back" and gimping your DDs so that the PLD can hold hate and you kill more slowly?
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-10-22 08:53:46
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Main reason PLD "sucks" is because:
A) It's barely needed.
B) The current hate-system is stuck back at 75-cap, a DD\sam can sekkanoki -> use 2 weaponskills and more or less cap hate.

If SE only could do something minor, like.. double hate cap? Would just partially fix the problem..
They could lower the amount of hate stuff gives? specially dealing damage?
They could make the enm+ and - merits give you a lower\higher cap rather than just enm+5 or -5? (make them give +1 or -1% higher\lower enmity cap?)
 Siren.Fupafighters
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By Siren.Fupafighters 2012-10-22 08:54:14
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Voren said: »
For what it's worth here's my two cents.

As an aspiring PLD (I aspire to have better gear) I see a lot of people simply saying PLD can't hold hate. I won't argue this because to do so would be to invite an onslaught of buttrape comments.

What I will say is have you maybe considered that the heavy DD's have forgotten how to play effectively due to Abyssea?

I can hear the sarcasm already, save it. It USE to be that DD/THF was effective at helping to control hate while allowing for some decent numbers.DRK/THf for instance could Trick Attack and weapon skill transfering hate.

Also, apparently Thieves have been slacking in their jobs or parties simply don't use them anymore, this, to me, is kind of a fail point. Any party can spare 1 heavy DD slot for a THF.

Also, if you're not a PLD for the love of the gods take your merits OUT of Enmity + and apply them to Enmity -. That's a 10 point difference between PLD and DD Enmity.

DRG can slough hate onto whomever is standing oposite of them, yet another effective way to keep hate on the PLd.

With all this said, SE really needs to adjust how hate works...period. A PLD, properly geared, can, by far, take a ton more physical and magic damage than any of the DD's, this includes MNK (sorry epeen MNK elitists, just because you have more HP doesn't mean you take less damage). PLD is the only job that can get above the 50% cap on MDT, using Aegis (99), I can't be sure it's 100% negation as I don't have one yet. The only thing PLd lacks is hate control, and a new JA or item isn't going to do a damn thing except waste time, money, and a gear slot.
DD will cap enmity fast, just by swinging their weapons. And in such time restricted content, we don't have time to turn and focus on trick attack weaponskill a tank every minute.
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By Voren 2012-10-22 09:11:55
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What happens when you get something spam happy with nukes and you're not done procing it? Been there, done that, MNK and WAR died, cluster f---s ensued, /facepalms occured.

Not everything can be zerged down while caping procs. Not every run is the same, not every NM pops the same, and if you've never popped an HQ NM consider yourself lucky.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2012-10-22 09:14:51
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Not this ***again.

You're about five years behind as enmity mechanics go, I'd suggest doing a little reading before you proceed.
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By Voren 2012-10-22 09:16:15
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Main reason PLD "sucks" is because:
A) It's barely needed.
B) The current hate-system is stuck back at 75-cap, a DD\sam can sekkanoki -> use 2 weaponskills and more or less cap hate.

If SE only could do something minor, like.. double hate cap? Would just partially fix the problem..
They could lower the amount of hate stuff gives? specially dealing damage?
They could make the enm+ and - merits give you a lower\higher cap rather than just enm+5 or -5? (make them give +1 or -1% higher\lower enmity cap?)

Thank you. I've seen you post all over the forums, always like the fact that you don't normally trash talk and actually articulate yourself more than adequately.

This idea would, at least, be a solid start, or a better foundation for SE to work with. Sadly, I doubt we'll ever see it.
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