Thanksgiving Special: 6 Underutilized Mechanics

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2020-12-15
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Thanksgiving Special: 6 Underutilized Mechanics
 Ragnarok.Jukiro
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By Ragnarok.Jukiro 2020-11-26 12:33:24
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
The hashtag is a symbol that floats around the bards when they're singing.

lmao. it's not a hashtag, its a sharp.
the "b" looking thing is a flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_(music)
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-11-26 12:34:29
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he called it a hashtag... so I answered in kind so he would know it was the same thing.

SimonSes said: »
Have no clue what this hashtag and turkey boxer represent tho XD
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-11-26 12:42:39
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That symbol has a bunch of names. Just from memory, it's called a hash, a sharp, a pound sign, and a number sign, and and I'm probably missing some.
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By Ragnarok.Jukiro 2020-11-26 12:44:40
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it's surrounding a bard, it's a sharp. further, it's italicized specifically to indicate a sharp and not a hashtag or pound sign.

♯ != #

(see the post below me for willful ignorance)
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-11-26 12:52:39
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In the current world, the lines between the symbols have blurred nearly to the point of there not really being a real difference anymore in all but a few situations. Even music sheets often use the standard keyboard symbol a lot of the time now just for simplicity's sake.
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By cuddlyhamster 2020-11-26 13:59:39
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Asura.Geriond said: »
That symbol has a bunch of names. Just from memory, it's called a hash, a sharp, a pound sign, and a number sign, and and I'm probably missing some.
You forgot my favorite one: Octothorpe

On topic: my favorite underutilized mechanic is to bring your own medicine.
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By SimonSes 2020-11-27 06:32:50
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So after all it was:

1. Saline Coat with diffusion
2. Pacifying Ruby
3. Dirge/Sirvante
4. BST Oozes
5. Regen V
6. Fighter's roll

What Icilies was really trying to point out ( saying like 10 times that I dont understand it :D ) that those was mostly with intention to present those "mechanics" to new/returning players as easy to get alternatives for meta.

Actually I might sums up their arguments first

1. Saline coat - Mostly presented by Rua as amazing defensive spell with historical usage against Ultima's Citadel Buster. When asked about current usecase, Rua mentioned Omen bosses and Mijin Gokure in dynamis D wave 1 and 2. Suggested pros was that with diffusion it decays slower and most serious damage is magic based.

2. Pacifying Ruby - Also mostly presented by Rua as "hidden gem" of Summoners. He says its amazing tool for something like wave 3 boss or brings up situation were they lost tank on some Omen bosses and SMN used Astral Conduit to spam this on DDs to stabilize hate. He said SMN used it 4 times to reset hate to 0, which seems false tho. It resets 25% of current hate, so your hate after 4 usages would drop to 31.64% (1 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.75) of what you had on start imo.

3. Dirge/Sirvante mostly presented by Rua. He lobby for it for a long time, but he explained how it works again (again it was with new/returning players in mind) and when you can apply it. Including details that with SV honormarch, you dont need victory march, but only haste I, so can its excelent occasion to sue Dirge.

4. Corrosive Ooze was mentioned as alternative for GEO or as complement to GEO without Idris. Tbh they focused too much on def down here, instead of bring up -33% attack down, which much more interesting imo as something worth using in new/returning players setup, than -8% more def down than most other sources (WSs, Gungnir, Angon, Tenebral Crush etc.) provides. Another Ooze mentioned was obviously Purulent Ooze and as example its most popular application on Wave 3 boss. Rua also mentioned that bringing BST to some events provide Killer Instinct (ability) bonuses and you can use it with right pet, then change to Arthur. Icilies pointed out (several times) that advantage for new/returning players here is that you can easily buy the jug in Jeuno and it works, while Idris GEO is require much longer grind.

5. Regen V. They were mostly talking about application before entering Ambuscade, but Rua was also trying to justify/defend SCH usage as healer over WHM in general.

6. Icilies started with correction, that underutilized is not a right word here, but maybe misused would be better (still not sure what you meant by misused :D). Biggest arguments was that you dont need Chaos roll in composition with GEO,COR,BRD but people still use Chaos for no reason instead of Fighter's roll mostly but other rolls like Rogue's roll, Monk's roll were mentioned too.

I was getting confused a little in general, because Icilies was keep trying to point out (as responses to my comments in chat) that I am missing the point about this being easy to use alternatives for new/returning players, but Rua's arguments about some of this stuff was clearly connected to geared players (bis full potency Regen V set, Rogue rolls being good for Empyrean weapons, Dirge being good, because you dont need haste with SVed Honor March and many more).

My take on this (quoting myself from youtube comments):

Quote:
1. Saline coat is nice, but its application is hard to time for diffusion sometimes, especially for something like Dynamis. You can time it for one NIN, but for another NIN 3 min later it will already decay and with 10min diffusion you wont have it at all for like 4+ mins. This mean its not reliable for longer events and you will need different mechanics as back up, making whole setup harder to execute. Its probably easier for GEO to switch to Fend (also MDB effect and also stronger with buffs) for NINs commanders or WHM to Sancrosanity, than BLU to rely on Saline Coat. Also keep in mind that Mighty Guard also has +15MDB alongside with 15%haste, 25%def and 30tic Regen, so I think overall benefit of Might Guard is much better and more reliable.

2. Pacifying Ruby is underutilized, because you need SMN in party lol. Im pretty sure if some Career SMN is actually on something like Wave 3 boss, he knows about Pacifycing Ruby and will use it :)

3. Dirge is underutilized simply because in 95% examples its not required to win and NA community is about to win fast, not win safely :) and with 5 songs soul voice good BRDs actually use dirge, so I wouldnt say its rare.

4. Ooze is underutilized, because BST is underutilized. If you suggest bringing BST only for -33% def down on NMs, then you should use DNC instead. DNC has -23% def down, but it STACKS with other form of def down, while Ooze wont stack with def down effects from WSs like Ageha, Shell Crusher, Armor Break or few BLU spells.

So with Ooze you will do Dia III (with light shot) + Ooze over Dia III + Ageha/Shell/Armor/etc. So basically 23%+33% over 23%+25%, so 56% over 48%.
With DNC you will do Dia III + Ageha/Shell/Armor/etc. + Box step, so 23%+25%+23%, so 71%. DNC is clearly way better here (especially that DNC also has HAste Samba which makes Fencer builds OP and helps WAR to cap haste with Gaxe too). Ofc you could argue to use both DNC and BST and throw away GEO completely, but DNC is definitely before BST if you want easy high def down and frailty is nerfed.

5. Regen V follows the same pattern. Regen V isnt underutilized, SCH is underutilized. I havent seen single SCH who werent using Regen V and trick with Regen for Ambuscade is also very popular imo.

6. Fighter's roll is not underutilized or misused at all imo. Its heavily used whenever you have enough attack boost and def down effects and fighters roll is actually good for your DPS. WAR forum even has fighters roll sets for years now in guide. Why Sam/chaos is used so much is because
a) Geo or BST+DNC is not there
b) You use GEO for defensive buffs, because your DPS jobs doesnt really take much advantage of Fighter's roll (Mythics, KC offhand, THF, ranged), so its better to Samurai/Chaos roll on COR and change Fury to something more productive
c) You split to fight different targets (Odyssey and some ambuscades)
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-11-27 07:52:28
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seems like about what was over all expected then.

Just outside the meta stuff. and why (cause zerg/cause slower)

The only one I really agree with is rolls (well, buffs in general) pretty much 100% of the PUG is trying to run cor+geo+brd and still defaulting to fury frail sam chaos. And just like it's good to know when you're not capping... it's important to know when you're over capping too. (and when bubbles are nerfed and/or have no effect)
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By SimonSes 2020-11-27 08:02:50
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
The only one I really agree with is rolls (well, buffs in general) pretty much 100% of the PUG is trying to run cor+geo and still defaulting to fury frail sam chaos. And just like it's good to know when you're not capping... it's important to know when you're over capping too. (and when bubbles are nerfed and/or have no effect)

Yeah, but even then, other rolls are not always the best solution over different bubbles.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-11-27 08:12:21
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Yeah, just general knowledge, while frail is usually "the best" bubble it doesn't always have full potency or taking damage is the bigger problem (possible wipe) or no bard and need a haste source.
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By Thunderjet 2020-11-27 09:17:33
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Asura.Aeonova said: »
BST using Charm.
SCH using their enmity view ability; name escapes me. Scan?
WHM ever using teleport spells since Field Manuals and Survival Guides, unless a Recall is needed for Ambuscade kills, I never use them anymore.
SMN using Garuda's Predator Claws. Man was that the backbone of SMN for so long. Mostly I just see Ifrit and Ramuh these days.
PLD/NIN tanking. Maybe it is used, but I never see it.
MNK and Chi Blast. They messed with Boost and I know I never hear or see Chi Blast talked about.

Those are six that came to mind.

No clue what all of the icons on this banner image is though. Feeding Tube? Shining/Glittering Ruby? Boxing turkey?
Iv done pld/nin for vd odin its fun
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2020-11-27 09:28:38
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SimonSes said: »
1. Saline coat is nice, but its application is hard to time for diffusion sometimes, especially for something like Dynamis. You can time it for one NIN, but for another NIN 3 min later it will already decay and with 10min diffusion you wont have it at all for like 4+ mins. This mean its not reliable for longer events and you will need different mechanics as back up, making whole setup harder to execute. Its probably easier for GEO to switch to Fend (also MDB effect and also stronger with buffs) for NINs commanders or WHM to Sancrosanity, than BLU to rely on Saline Coat. Also keep in mind that Mighty Guard also has +15MDB alongside with 15%haste, 25%def and 30tic Regen, so I think overall benefit of Might Guard is much better and more reliable.

2. Pacifying Ruby is underutilized, because you need SMN in party lol. Im pretty sure if some Career SMN is actually on something like Wave 3 boss, he knows about Pacifycing Ruby and will use it :)

3. Dirge is underutilized simply because in 95% examples its not required to win and NA community is about to win fast, not win safely :) and with 5 songs soul voice good BRDs actually use dirge, so I wouldnt say its rare.

4. Ooze is underutilized, because BST is underutilized. If you suggest bringing BST only for -33% def down on NMs, then you should use DNC instead. DNC has -23% def down, but it STACKS with other form of def down, while Ooze wont stack with def down effects from WSs like Ageha, Shell Crusher, Armor Break or few BLU spells.

So with Ooze you will do Dia III (with light shot) + Ooze over Dia III + Ageha/Shell/Armor/etc. So basically 23%+33% over 23%+25%, so 56% over 48%.
With DNC you will do Dia III + Ageha/Shell/Armor/etc. + Box step, so 23%+25%+23%, so 71%. DNC is clearly way better here (especially that DNC also has HAste Samba which makes Fencer builds OP and helps WAR to cap haste with Gaxe too). Ofc you could argue to use both DNC and BST and throw away GEO completely, but DNC is definitely before BST if you want easy high def down and frailty is nerfed.

5. Regen V follows the same pattern. Regen V isnt underutilized, SCH is underutilized. I havent seen single SCH who werent using Regen V and trick with Regen for Ambuscade is also very popular imo.

6. Fighter's roll is not underutilized or misused at all imo. Its heavily used whenever you have enough attack boost and def down effects and fighters roll is actually good for your DPS. WAR forum even has fighters roll sets for years now in guide. Why Sam/chaos is used so much is because
a) Geo or BST+DNC is not there
b) You use GEO for defensive buffs, because your DPS jobs doesnt really take much advantage of Fighter's roll (Mythics, KC offhand, THF, ranged), so its better to Samurai/Chaos roll on COR and change Fury to something more productive
c) You split to fight different targets (Odyssey and some ambuscades)

My big question is do we mean under utilized or fairly/extremely niche

To piggy back off your comments

1) The big problem is it's use is tied to Diffusion and it only protects 1 party. So that party is giving up MG and not just using one of the many other defensive buffs available to them. Like Scherzo. One BRD can protect the entire alliance by pt swapping Scherzos on everyone. +7 Magus Roll, while worse than max potency coat will be better than Saline Coat as it decays. And your blu doesn't have to spend 3 points on a spell that isn't used for useful traits.

2) Pacifying Ruby requires a SMN in the damage PT, that PT to be not SMN burning so there's actually a DD to ruby, the tank dying, and the tank being unable to get hate back with SP1. Simply put, the use case for this is... extremely niche. Oh yeah and it only helps 1 DD at a time.

3) Dirge honestly requires the fight to be threatening enough that losing hate is a death sentence and either the tank being unable to adequately build hate or the fight lasts long enough for hate to actually cap. That kinda limits it's use to certain ambus and dynamis. And that's where people use Dirge. Makes sense to me.

The other 3 I don't really have too much to add.
 Asura.Icilies
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By Asura.Icilies 2020-11-27 09:29:46
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Good lord I'm hungover.

I kept rambling after Rua left and ended up in a deep rabbit hole. This led to more Thanksgiving shots. lol

We appreciate all the dialogue and the counter points. The goal was to have more of a dialogue and it not be a new podcast episode.

The term underutilized was mistakenly blurred with optimal at the the fault of myself a bit. But it was still good conversation and ultimately that is the fun in it.

I probably won't re upload this one since it was more open forum. However, the format people seemed to like so I may use it as a new type of regular content moving forward. Just with less Thanksgiving boos.

So, yes the below were the topics.

1. Saline Coat with diffusion
2. Pacifying Ruby
3. Dirge/Sirvante
4. BST Oozes
5. Regen V
6. Fighter's roll
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By Shiva.Arislan 2020-11-27 09:44:25
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Ragnarok.Jukiro said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
The hashtag is a symbol that floats around the bards when they're singing.

lmao. it's not a hashtag, its a sharp.
the "b" looking thing is a flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_(music)

Glad to see I wasn't the only triggered musician, lol.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-11-27 09:54:51
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Asura.Icilies said: »
1. Saline Coat with diffusion
2. Pacifying Ruby
3. Dirge/Sirvante
4. BST Oozes
5. Regen V
6. Fighter's roll

These 6 match the icons... but how is the turkey = slug or ooze
 Asura.Icilies
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By Asura.Icilies 2020-11-27 10:03:27
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The green
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Asura.Icilies said: »
1. Saline Coat with diffusion
2. Pacifying Ruby
3. Dirge/Sirvante
4. BST Oozes
5. Regen V
6. Fighter's roll

These 6 match the icons... but how is the turkey = slug or ooze

The green ooze on the thumbnail
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By SimonSes 2020-11-27 11:27:46
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Asura.Icilies said: »
The green
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Asura.Icilies said: »
1. Saline Coat with diffusion
2. Pacifying Ruby
3. Dirge/Sirvante
4. BST Oozes
5. Regen V
6. Fighter's roll

These 6 match the icons... but how is the turkey = slug or ooze

The green ooze on the thumbnail

From watching stream I know Turkey and dices are meant to lead to one thing "Fighter's roll". Seeing 6 mechanics in title and 6 icons I would never guess 2 icons were a set and 6th lead was Ooze on top XD
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By cuddlyhamster 2020-11-27 11:55:45
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Asura.Icilies said: »
3. Dirge/Sirvante

People went over the situational uses of Dirge, but no mention of Sirvante. Was there a use for it or was it just there to make the songs topic look bigger.
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By SimonSes 2020-11-27 12:19:02
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cuddlyhamster said: »
Asura.Icilies said: »
3. Dirge/Sirvante

People went over the situational uses of Dirge, but no mention of Sirvante. Was there a use for it or was it just there to make the songs topic look bigger.

Argument was to Piannisimo Sirvante on tank (assuming you are in ambuscade so tank and dd in same party)
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By Sylph.Snk 2020-11-27 15:30:40
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
blind potions for gazes
Is this actually a thing? I've never heard this one before and been around since the start.

Not sure if this was mentioned but BST can use Tame to reset a mob that's been CFH'd.
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2020-11-27 15:59:57
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cuddlyhamster said: »
Asura.Icilies said: »
3. Dirge/Sirvante

People went over the situational uses of Dirge, but no mention of Sirvante. Was there a use for it or was it just there to make the songs topic look bigger.
Basically use it with Dirge is the argument but the problem is once you're already using Dirge, the tank is gonna get to capped enmity before DDs and it's not like the tank is gonna just AFK after that. They're gonna keep generating enmity.

Dirge is great because in things like W3 where DDs do big DMGs very fast while tanks have to actually manage their CDs for more than just hate tools. So slapping -32 enmity on all of the DDs is a big help.

On the sirvente side of things, you just don't bleed enmity at a similar rate that you or DDs generate it. So while the % might be bigger, the enmity retained is going to be much smaller. And sirvente could be something like minne. The stuff that's really scary to DDs is also scary for tanks. You can get unlucky and SCd down in W3, especially if you get caught midcast. Sirvente does nothing there an extra minne might make a difference.
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By SimonSes 2020-11-27 16:18:48
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Pandemonium.Zeto said: »
So slapping -32 enmity on all of the DDs is a big help.

Its really usually -64 in those scenarios, because its used with SV, so most DDs are at -50 cap, even if some of their equip has enmity+ as side effect (like augmented Odyssean for example).
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By zigzagzig 2020-11-27 18:42:37
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SMN Avatar's Favor buff .....
SMN BUFFS ....
SMN 2H Alex, Odin and Atomos Gimped like why using them anyway ....
SMN Spirits .... ( S.E don't give ***about )
SMN , a job like pup ..... usefull in 1% of the game....
DRG pet recast 20 minutes ..... it is too short , we need 40 minutes , F... *** Ho.... of S.E Developers )
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2020-11-27 21:14:51
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I'm pretty sure you could do this with just thief.. :P

Accomplice/Collaborator are useless in current meta (don't need them if you're doing dirge, work for 2 seconds if you're not).
Conspirator is broken and actually negatively impacts DPS (STP bug).
Steal is useless
Mug is useless
Despoil is useless
Dangit, can't think of a sixth one.... help me out!
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-11-27 21:17:07
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6) Assassin's Charge is trash

THF should be / Should've been updated by now in the series of now delayed job updates.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2020-11-28 04:18:28
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
I'm pretty sure you could do this with just thief.. :P

Accomplice/Collaborator are useless in current meta (don't need them if you're doing dirge, work for 2 seconds if you're not).
Conspirator is broken and actually negatively impacts DPS (STP bug).
Steal is useless
Mug is useless
Despoil is useless
Dangit, can't think of a sixth one.... help me out!

Mug can actually be a pretty big instant self heal if you gear for it. It saves me all the time.

Despoil similarly is handy for stealing tp.

Steal can be handy for dispel/buff steal for some fights but you wont always want to have it merited.

While I find those abilities useful I still see them as much weaker versions with much longer timers of abilities other dps jobs get. I agree that thf is in a bad place and needs updates. It feels like they have just artificially made thf relevant by limiting everyone else's TH and not letting anyone else key chests and it lets them get away with leaving thief in a bad place but still be able to point to it as a popular job as we are forced to play it. This is a bad situation for players because we end up spending a lot of time on a job that could really use some updates.
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By Asura.Aeonova 2020-11-28 08:46:22
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Best thing to come out of this was that I learned that Blind status disabled Gaze attack effects from landing. Not particularly useful to inflict blindness on yourself when you could just turn, but I guess it would mean a Flash'd/Blinded monster won't be hit with your BLU gaze attacks so yeah. Learned that.
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2020-11-28 09:19:03
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Being blinded doesn't block all gaze attacks if it blocks any. Just tested with Fatal Allure on Lilith still charmed.

Also Flash isn't the same status as Blind
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By Asura.Chevalios 2020-11-28 11:08:47
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vanilla pol :)
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