I wanted to try to keep this post concise, and I clearly failed there, but it would have been a hell of a lot longer if I'd included the tests procedures and data here. So I've set this up to be a conclusions and explanations post and plan to just dump my test notes into the second post in the thread.
So, ever notice that things sometimes get... weird when you pull a ton of mobs? Like some mobs seemingly not on the hate list even after you know you hit them with an AoE? Well, there's a reason for that.
There appears to be a 15 mob limit on how many mobs can be added to the hate list in one mob targeted action. Any mobs past this limit will behave as if they have not even been acted on. The effects of an AoE action still apply to all targets hit. They take dmg, or receive status effects like sleep. But they don't count as being tagged for enmity purposes. Interestingly, 15 targets also appears to be the display limit for AoEs.
Also, even if you cast on the same group of mobs again, it seems to exclude the same mobs every time. So you can't just cast 2 or 3 times on the same group to ensure you've tagged everything.(I've not confirmed if the excluded mobs are always the same for different casters. Just for the same caster trying to tag all. Should test.) However any mob you target directly with a spell is always added regardless of how many total mobs it hits. It might be more accurate to say the limit is TargetMob+14 extras. EDIT: I found in a later test that this is because it selects the target mob plus the 14 mobs with the highest IDs to add to the hate list.
This has a lot of implications for various jobs, which I why I put this in the general forums as it's own thread rather than a post in the PLD thread, etc.
For example, when tagging mobs to apply Geomancy effects, any "enmity excluded", as I'm calling it, mobs, will not receive the effects of geomancy from the geo that AoE'd them. They just count as not tagged at all.
For tanks, just hitting all the mobs with an AoE may not actually be putting all the mobs on your hate list... Which can be pretty bad. To ensure you tagged everything, you'd have to cast on sort of.. subgroups of the pull, rather than trying to hit the whole pull. Let the mages sleep everything, then move around casting blu spells on sections of the pull at a time, trying to stay at or below 15 mobs at a time. Or at least hitting different sections of mobs so that it might tag the ones you need.
On the bright side, tagging a player who has hate on everything can still add more than 15 mobs to the hate list. If your tank has tagged all mobs and you cast on the tank, you will get on the hate list for all mobs. I have not tested if there is a limit to this, or a overall limit to how many mobs can be on a players hate list. Something for future testing.
Next up... AoE enmity actions can only generate enmity on up to 15 targets, even if there were additional targets in range that were already on the hate list. So it's not just a matter of tagging everything first then you can spam AoEs. Mob targeted AoEs like BLU spells will only build hate on 15 mobs per cast. And it will, like with the tagging, tend to be the same mobs in the group every cast. So you'll end up with 15 mobs you have a ton of hate on, and the rest with basically none. This sucks.
Conversely, self targeted enmity actions, like Foil, will still generate enmity on all mobs.. I have not tested if there is a limit to this, only confirmed that it goes past the 15 mob limit. Another feather in Foil's cap, along with a kick in the nuts for /BLU spam. This is hard on PLD as it doesn't have good self target spammable enmity actions.
And PLDs, don't think you can fall back on cures here. In any situation where you have 15+ mobs on the hate list your cures are going to do basically nothing enmity wise. The split Cure enmity mechanic is a terrible one.
And finally THFs rejoice, cause you don't have to worry about any of this. TH can be applied to more than 15 mobs at a time. My thought here is that since it works more like a debuff applied to the mob, that, much like casting sleepga can sleep any number of mobs at once, you can TH any number of mobs in one cast.
At least all these mechanics only apply when we already have waaay too many freaking mobs. So they are usually edge cases anyway. But it is something that can happen. We've been doing some mega pulls in Namis D wave 2 recently...
Mass Pull Enmity Mechanics
Mass pull enmity mechanics
I'm using this post for my test notes.
Quote:
Questions and answers
Q#1: How many mobs can be added to the hate list in a single monster targeted action?
A#1: 15. Note: Repeat casts on the same group will exclude the same mob each time.
More accurately, it might be, the spell target +14 mobs.
Seems like even when aoe'ing more than 15 mobs, the target of the spell will always be added to the hate list.
Q#2: Does this limit apply to acting on a player that is on the hate list for more than 15 mobs?
A#2: No. Was able to get on the hate list for and pull enmity on 17 mobs by curing a player with hate on all, then using a self targeted JA to pull hate.
Q#3: If more than 15 mobs are already on the hate list, will AoE actions striking more than 15 mobs still add enmity for all targets?
A#3: No. Enmity will only be generated on 15 mobs.
Q#4: Will self targeted actions generate hate on more than 15 mobs at once? Really I answered this during Q#2 already.
A#4: Yes. Self Targeted actions can generate enmity on more than 15 mobs at a time.
Q#5: Does this 15 mob limit affect tagging mobs with TH?
A#5: No. Cast AoE with TH8. A mob that did not turn to the caster proc'd 8->9 rather than the TH7-> 8 that I was melee'ing in.
Q#6: Are the enmity excluded mobs affected by Geomancy?(from the AoE caster)
A#6: No. If a mob is "enmity excluded" on the tag AoE, then Geomancy will not take effect.
Tests
Q#1 test #1
Group of 25 mobs, agro'd to Martel
Aoe cast(Banishga) by Arduwyn, 8 mobs did not change target. 17 mobs did.
Aoe cast by Martel. 2 mobs did not change target.(spell was Geistwall, so enmity should have been enough to change targets.)
Possible 17 mob limit? *Later tests suggest either a miscount or some mobs de-agroed.
Q#1 Test #2
18 mob pull
3 mobs stayed...
Implies either a certain randomness, or a miscount on the prior test...
Q#1 Test #3
Agro'd 15 mobs with Martel, aoe cast by Arduwyn. All moves moved targets.
Agroed one additional mob(total 16), grouped up and had Arduwyn cast again. The one new mob was not added to the hate list.
Q#1 Test #4
Agro'd 16 mobs on Martel, aoe cast from Arduwyn. All but one mob changed targets.
Q#1 Test #5
Agro'd 17 mobs on Martel. Aoe cast on Arduwyn. all but 2 mobs changed target. Targeted one of these two, then aoe'd again hitting the whole group. The directly targeted mob changed targets to Arduwyn.
Q#2 Test #1
Used the pull from Q#1 Test #5 where Arduwyn had hate on 17 mobs. 15 via AoE cast, and the last two tagged directly. Martel cast cure on Arduwyn, then used Palisade. All mobs moved to attack Martel.
Q#3 Test #1
Used the previous pull. On hate list for 17 mobs. All with a cure 1 + palisade worth of enmity. Atonement dmg on all should be equal.
Used an aoe blu spell for more CE. enmity gear was used for both this and palisade, but shouldn't matter as the question is only if any mobs were unaffected.
Interesting note. Casting on 17 mobs only displayed 15 in the log.
Used atonement on all mobs.
1 mob took 633. I accidentally melee'd this mob once. Invalid.
2 mobs took 423 dmg
and the rest took 561
This strongly suggests that the Blu spell only affected 15 mobs. And clearly shows that Palisade, once on the hate list for all, affected all mobs.
Q#3 Test #2
Repeat test with better controlled conditions. +/-0 enmity on all actions on martel.
Used a fresh pull of 17 mobs on Martel. Ard banishga'd the pull, leaving 2 of the 17 mobs on martel. Tagged each of the extras individually.
Martel tagged ard with a protect 1, then used palisade, pulling all 17 mobs to Martel.
Cast Geistwall in +0 enmity gear, hitting all mobs.
Used Atonement on each mob once.
All but 2 mobs took 203 dmg. The other two took 149 dmg.
Supports the conclusion that Geist wall was only generating enmity on 15/17 mobs.
Q#5 test 1.
Pulled 17 mobs on Martel. Banishga'd(TH8) them with Ard's THF/WHM.
Killed all mobs that went to ard. Then melee'd the remaining mobs with no TH gear. Used Feint, SA/TA as recast allowed.
No TH procs on two mobs melee'd to death with a 1 dmg wep.
Repeated the test, but wore TH7 during melee.
Finally got a proc showing TH9. This means that even when the mobs do not turn to the caster(meaning they did not apparently get on the hate list) TH still applied.
Q#6 Test #1
Pulled 19 mobs on Martel.
Banishga'd on ard, and killed the 15 mobs that came to him.
Put up indi poison, then moved into range of the remaining 4 mobs.
All have 95% HP from the tag banishga. Observed for several minutes but HP never changed.
Tagged a single mob and saw HP drop to 94% within 30 seconds.
Cast geo-paralyze on and then killed the tagged mob. Observed the other 3 mobs and never saw HP% change nor geo-para proc.
Conclusion, "enmity excluded" mobs do not receive the effects of geomancy from the tagging GEO.
Q#1: How many mobs can be added to the hate list in a single monster targeted action?
A#1: 15. Note: Repeat casts on the same group will exclude the same mob each time.
More accurately, it might be, the spell target +14 mobs.
Seems like even when aoe'ing more than 15 mobs, the target of the spell will always be added to the hate list.
Q#2: Does this limit apply to acting on a player that is on the hate list for more than 15 mobs?
A#2: No. Was able to get on the hate list for and pull enmity on 17 mobs by curing a player with hate on all, then using a self targeted JA to pull hate.
Q#3: If more than 15 mobs are already on the hate list, will AoE actions striking more than 15 mobs still add enmity for all targets?
A#3: No. Enmity will only be generated on 15 mobs.
Q#4: Will self targeted actions generate hate on more than 15 mobs at once? Really I answered this during Q#2 already.
A#4: Yes. Self Targeted actions can generate enmity on more than 15 mobs at a time.
Q#5: Does this 15 mob limit affect tagging mobs with TH?
A#5: No. Cast AoE with TH8. A mob that did not turn to the caster proc'd 8->9 rather than the TH7-> 8 that I was melee'ing in.
Q#6: Are the enmity excluded mobs affected by Geomancy?(from the AoE caster)
A#6: No. If a mob is "enmity excluded" on the tag AoE, then Geomancy will not take effect.
Tests
Q#1 test #1
Group of 25 mobs, agro'd to Martel
Aoe cast(Banishga) by Arduwyn, 8 mobs did not change target. 17 mobs did.
Aoe cast by Martel. 2 mobs did not change target.(spell was Geistwall, so enmity should have been enough to change targets.)
Possible 17 mob limit? *Later tests suggest either a miscount or some mobs de-agroed.
Q#1 Test #2
18 mob pull
3 mobs stayed...
Implies either a certain randomness, or a miscount on the prior test...
Q#1 Test #3
Agro'd 15 mobs with Martel, aoe cast by Arduwyn. All moves moved targets.
Agroed one additional mob(total 16), grouped up and had Arduwyn cast again. The one new mob was not added to the hate list.
Q#1 Test #4
Agro'd 16 mobs on Martel, aoe cast from Arduwyn. All but one mob changed targets.
Q#1 Test #5
Agro'd 17 mobs on Martel. Aoe cast on Arduwyn. all but 2 mobs changed target. Targeted one of these two, then aoe'd again hitting the whole group. The directly targeted mob changed targets to Arduwyn.
Q#2 Test #1
Used the pull from Q#1 Test #5 where Arduwyn had hate on 17 mobs. 15 via AoE cast, and the last two tagged directly. Martel cast cure on Arduwyn, then used Palisade. All mobs moved to attack Martel.
Q#3 Test #1
Used the previous pull. On hate list for 17 mobs. All with a cure 1 + palisade worth of enmity. Atonement dmg on all should be equal.
Used an aoe blu spell for more CE. enmity gear was used for both this and palisade, but shouldn't matter as the question is only if any mobs were unaffected.
Interesting note. Casting on 17 mobs only displayed 15 in the log.
Used atonement on all mobs.
1 mob took 633. I accidentally melee'd this mob once. Invalid.
2 mobs took 423 dmg
and the rest took 561
This strongly suggests that the Blu spell only affected 15 mobs. And clearly shows that Palisade, once on the hate list for all, affected all mobs.
Q#3 Test #2
Repeat test with better controlled conditions. +/-0 enmity on all actions on martel.
Used a fresh pull of 17 mobs on Martel. Ard banishga'd the pull, leaving 2 of the 17 mobs on martel. Tagged each of the extras individually.
Martel tagged ard with a protect 1, then used palisade, pulling all 17 mobs to Martel.
Cast Geistwall in +0 enmity gear, hitting all mobs.
Used Atonement on each mob once.
All but 2 mobs took 203 dmg. The other two took 149 dmg.
Supports the conclusion that Geist wall was only generating enmity on 15/17 mobs.
Q#5 test 1.
Pulled 17 mobs on Martel. Banishga'd(TH8) them with Ard's THF/WHM.
Killed all mobs that went to ard. Then melee'd the remaining mobs with no TH gear. Used Feint, SA/TA as recast allowed.
No TH procs on two mobs melee'd to death with a 1 dmg wep.
Repeated the test, but wore TH7 during melee.
Finally got a proc showing TH9. This means that even when the mobs do not turn to the caster(meaning they did not apparently get on the hate list) TH still applied.
Q#6 Test #1
Pulled 19 mobs on Martel.
Banishga'd on ard, and killed the 15 mobs that came to him.
Put up indi poison, then moved into range of the remaining 4 mobs.
All have 95% HP from the tag banishga. Observed for several minutes but HP never changed.
Tagged a single mob and saw HP drop to 94% within 30 seconds.
Cast geo-paralyze on and then killed the tagged mob. Observed the other 3 mobs and never saw HP% change nor geo-para proc.
Conclusion, "enmity excluded" mobs do not receive the effects of geomancy from the tagging GEO.
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Good info, but like you said its edge case for sure. Still good to know though. Nice info as always.
Shiva.Ariaum said: »
Good info, but like you said its edge case for sure. Still good to know though. Nice info as always.
It's also really rare that I get to test like, really, uncharted waters enmity wise. This isn't something that's been discussed in much detail or been tested at all that I know of, so it was an interesting diversion.
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extremely valuable with the Omen Card campaign coming up, and groups doing more Ou/Card path runs which can often result in 15+ mobs. Thank you for what couldn't have been a "fun" test!
Indeed, it was noticeable when my RUN pull many camps for BLU cleaving, shockwave > foil then the next nuke still a group runs toward my BLU.
Also, its nice to have a limit on pulling. AoEing is the fastest exp/cp/spark/acc but i never know whats the sweet spot on keeping grabbing more mobs or killing the moving so the first group can respawn
Also, its nice to have a limit on pulling. AoEing is the fastest exp/cp/spark/acc but i never know whats the sweet spot on keeping grabbing more mobs or killing the moving so the first group can respawn
Very valuable information! Yet very sad to learn the game is restricted to this limit. Hope this can be communicated with our Japanese counter parts for parity of information.
Moving forward this will surely be great for divergence farming aoe tactics and pulling.
Thanks a lot Martel.
Moving forward this will surely be great for divergence farming aoe tactics and pulling.
Thanks a lot Martel.
This is why I like shockwave cleaving.
Shockwave (AoE damage+sleep) -> Pflug/Battuta (Self) -> GEO cures me -> Shockwave spam
I thought the limit was target+15, but I haven't explicitly tested it or had to deal with it directly since the Astral Flow days in Korroloka.
I've always been under the assumption that the same limit applies to TH application.
Shockwave (AoE damage+sleep) -> Pflug/Battuta (Self) -> GEO cures me -> Shockwave spam
I thought the limit was target+15, but I haven't explicitly tested it or had to deal with it directly since the Astral Flow days in Korroloka.
I've always been under the assumption that the same limit applies to TH application.
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
On the bright side, tagging a player who has hate on everything can still add more than 15 mobs to the hate list. If your tank has tagged all mobs and you cast on the tank, you will get on the hate list for all mobs. I have not tested if there is a limit to this, or a overall limit to how many mobs can be on a players hate list. Something for future testing.
May be a dumb question/observation, but let's say you have two tank jobs (for safety or whatever) in the same party. Could one tank tag the mobs (more than 15), then, the other cure the tagging tank to get on the hate list for all mobs (for say, when they wake when cleaving in Dyna D; example)?
When I used to pull a whole zone for astral burning I would use /heal to keep them from despawning. At the start and during the kill as monsters were wiped out. Kept them all on me till the end.
Prong said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
On the bright side, tagging a player who has hate on everything can still add more than 15 mobs to the hate list. If your tank has tagged all mobs and you cast on the tank, you will get on the hate list for all mobs. I have not tested if there is a limit to this, or a overall limit to how many mobs can be on a players hate list. Something for future testing.
May be a dumb question/observation, but let's say you have two tank jobs (for safety or whatever) in the same party. Could one tank tag the mobs (more than 15), then, the other cure the tagging tank to get on the hate list for all mobs (for say, when they wake when cleaving in Dyna D; example)?
Great findings, love having finite information on stuff like this.
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
Shiva.Thorny said: »
Great findings, love having finite information on stuff like this.
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
Not super familiar with windower addons any more, but TargetInfo addon should show IDs, which share the same order as indices.
Cool, I'll check on that when I get home.
Can you think of anything else regarding this that needs testing?
Can you think of anything else regarding this that needs testing?
Nothing that immediately comes to mind, the TH test was a nice addition I wouldn't have thought of.
it's basically useless, but would be fun to find out if you could pull 15 mobs that absorb an element, and then a 16th NM and aoe with no enmity.
(15 puks + an abyssea nm and see if you can aeroga the nm to death while healing the 15 puks and cause no enmity)
It would also tell you if you could set your 15 mobs and then add new mobs on and see if the priority shifts once 15 were already tagged. (you may already be set on this one) But an nm will be easy to see on the widescan list, either clearly above or below the 15 puks.
(15 puks + an abyssea nm and see if you can aeroga the nm to death while healing the 15 puks and cause no enmity)
It would also tell you if you could set your 15 mobs and then add new mobs on and see if the priority shifts once 15 were already tagged. (you may already be set on this one) But an nm will be easy to see on the widescan list, either clearly above or below the 15 puks.
I did, as you may have alluded to, do a test where I pulled 15 mobs, tagged them and then agroed one more and tagged again. The 16th mob was enmity excluded. I didn't repeat the test, and haven't tested the exclusion criteria, so that could have been coincidence
Shiva.Thorny said: »
Great findings, love having finite information on stuff like this.
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
Code
18 mob pull. Full ID: 17846476 Last 2 digits only: 50 51 52 58 59 52 61 65 66 67 68 69 71 72 73 74 75 76 Enmity excluded 50 51 52
Did a second pull.
Code
23 mob pull. 17846459 50 51 52 53 55 58 59 61 65 66 67 68 69 71 72 73 74 75 76 80 81 84 85 Enmity excluded 50 51 52 53 55 58 59 61
In each test I targeted an ID roughly in the middle of the pack. Forgot to specifically record my targets, but I don't think it was ever a number that would have normally been excluded so it shouldn't matter.
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Shiva.Thorny said: »
Great findings, love having finite information on stuff like this.
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
I suspect it's likely the current target + the 14 earliest indices in the zone, did you check for that as a possibility?
Code
18 mob pull. Full ID: 17846476 Last 2 digits only: 50 51 52 58 59 52 61 65 66 67 68 69 71 72 73 74 75 76 Enmity excluded 50 51 52
Did a second pull.
Code
23 mob pull. 17846459 50 51 52 53 55 58 59 61 65 66 67 68 69 71 72 73 74 75 76 80 81 84 85 Enmity excluded 50 51 52 53 55 58 59 61
In each test I targeted an ID roughly in the middle of the pack. Forgot to specifically record my targets, but I don't think it was ever a number that would have normally been excluded so it shouldn't matter.
That makes sense to me. I'm fairly certain autotarget just chooses the highest ID mob within eyesight for you to pick. Ever noticed how it always targets ninjas,and wyverns, but never seems to target aurix? Ninjas are the highest ID on most pulls, and wyverns/bst pets/avatars are +1 of their master.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did something similar for choosing aoe targets.
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Hmmm, autotarget is another thing that could probably use some testing.
Personally, it always seemed to me that autotarget has a tendency towards targeting the farthest away mob in sight range. It's.. really annoying.
But testing it to figure out the exact criteria and mechanics probably wouldn't be too hard. Just a matter of finding the tiem to do it. <,<;;
Personally, it always seemed to me that autotarget has a tendency towards targeting the farthest away mob in sight range. It's.. really annoying.
But testing it to figure out the exact criteria and mechanics probably wouldn't be too hard. Just a matter of finding the tiem to do it. <,<;;
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It does always pick the worst possible target. Pull a thousand mobs in dynamis line em all up and it targets the damn blms and ninjas who aren't piled up. Irritating doesn't even begin to cover it lol.
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Asura.Arico said: »
That makes sense to me. I'm fairly certain autotarget just chooses the highest ID mob within eyesight for you to pick. Ever noticed how it always targets ninjas,and wyverns, but never seems to target aurix? Ninjas are the highest ID on most pulls, and wyverns/bst pets/avatars are +1 of their master.
This makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why I always would autotarget wyverns and avatars but never the dragoon/plds or smns.
Asura.Eiryl said: »
It does always pick the worst possible target. Pull a thousand mobs in dynamis line em all up and it targets the damn blms and ninjas who aren't piled up. Irritating doesn't even begin to cover it lol.
Yeah. Ninjas are often high up, so are cors for some reason. Wyverns/Avatars/Bst pets are always +1 of their master.
always move to the wall to your right of you when you're running. most mobs will walk around you: wall is the underline, you are + mobs .
..
_+.....
blm/rng/nin/cor will stand a ways behind you and you'll auto-target the things actually in range.
..
_+.....
blm/rng/nin/cor will stand a ways behind you and you'll auto-target the things actually in range.
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