Best WS DD In The Game...

YAY! This thread again.... WAIT ONE SEC! making some popcorn

Geo with AM3 exudation spam is obviously the king guys. Let's be real

That would give you a number FAR outside of reality for various jobs. So if you goal is to get something that reflects well in game. I would not consider that a good question. Not really sure 500 TP a hit is even possible. If it is you are probably gimping yourself overall.

half hit zanshin builds, GO!

Basically all the big DD get a BIG boost from warcry. Not sure where you got that impression? I disagree with the idea that jobs benefit from warcry less because the fight is short. They benefit WAYYYY more because you can full time it. I never said that. Also what do you think upheaval should be averaging with and without warcry?
That is a bit misleading, I play quite a few jobs a lot. I just enjoy the content war does the most and brainstorm it most often.
I like war the most. But I am also pretty big on dnc bst mnk rdm and run, I also have a max geared aeonic drg, but hardly ever play it anymore. I might actually play WHM the most lately.

True for most jobs when they have warcry buffing them vs when warcry isnt buffing them. I would consider that more of a generic statement. For "insert job" losing warcry is a big hit to DPS. Chango war is strong without it, should be 40kish averages without warcry. Chango is the weapon where DPS takes the smallest hit when losing warcry. It is also the weapon where war gets the smallest benefit from warcry when compared to not having warcry.

I think you misunderstood me somehow.

All big DD getting huge boost from Warcry is exactly what I'm talking about. I also never said anything about relation of fight being short to benefit of Warcry, so not sure how you get there.

DNC doesnt benefit as much from Warcry, because:
a) In Twashtar/Centovente build you ws at effectively 2000+ TP always and Rudra gains above 2000TP are way lower than Torcleaver/Upheaval/Insurgency/Fudo/Stardiver/Impulse etc. gains between 1000 and 2500 TP. TP overflow (or reverse flourish) will also make you lose some of the TP bonus from Warcry, because you will be effectively above 2300TP already.
b) In Terpsi builds Pyrrhic doesn't scale with TP.

You could obviously use other offhand with Twashtar to lose that 1000TP bonus from Cento and then you would get more benefit from Warcry, but I'm pretty sure you would in the end lose or at best match DPS of build with Centovente, so that would be intentionally gimping yourself to get more benefit from Warcry, so not really smart.

DNC is much closer to all DDs (beside MNK and probably SAM) when Warcry is not there. So DRK in party with WAR will be much stronger than DNC, but if there is no WAR in party, DNC will be much closer to DRK (probably still loosing, but not "WAYYYY behind").

I'm not sure how to answer your question about Upheaval damage, because it will be different in many areas and with many buffs (like for example regular melee party would get Samurai and Chaos rolls, while I'm pretty sure you run mostly with Fighter's roll). Without Warcry Upheaval is around 30k avg? or less?


Where? and what buffs?

10 bucks says the OP already read through last months thread and started this one just to ressurect drama and troll.

With this set:

ItemSet 364151

R15 Chango: 352 dmg
VIT: 339
DEX: 249
WSC: 0.8 * 339 + 0.1 * 249 = 296
Total base: 296 + 352 = 648
pdif: 3.95
fTP at lets say 2000 TP (Moonshade+Chango+TPoverflow) with 56% WSD: 3.5 * 1.56 = 5.46
MA rate ~70%
fTP from additional hits: 3 + 1.4 = 4.4
Total fTP: 5.46 + 4.4 = 9.86
Chango bonus: 10%

648 * 3.95 * 9.86 * 1.1 = 27 761

I assumed 0 fSTR, because STR is below 300 and you probably wont have positive fSTR against anything serious, but even assuming you will, damage wont jump more than to 29-30k

SAM/FIGHTER HM VM attack acc FUry/frail/dia. Outside of escha.

Your WSC/WSD/MA are wrong, Vit and dex are close enough (i think, i would have to double check). Should be 64 WSD .85 on you WSC and 81 on your DA with 3 qa. Granted my war will have more WSD than most. The set you posted should have 85 DA with fighters and 57 without, you arent even quantifying the set you posted accurately.

At the very least. WSD is wrong and MA is really wrong. WSC was just done for a different WS than upheaval.

Never hand mathed it out. But have tested it quite a bit. Floats between 38-40k. I call it 40kish. This is with a rather massive amount of testing averages. Might be that I almost never use a tank for ambu so my TP overflow is MUCH higher than yours. 3 hit build to 1170 TP for an average attack round + WS. Extra hits are gonna put you closer to 2300 total TP before WS (conservatively). Would have to look into it more, but your theory crafting is far off of in-game results.

But yeah, we are getting off of my point. DPS is pretty similar on the various DPS.


Edit*** actually it is 1193-1208 TP in 1 WS + attack round. Not including extra attack round from lag spikes or retal proccs. So 1600 with retal.

War is gimp trash and I have played war since 2004. Sorry that I actually want to use warriors A Rank job specific weapon and not an axe or club. It should never come to that. war has been ***on since after abyssea with nerf after nerf. Ukkos is ***blood rage is ***. Upheaval is ***. MT is ***.

If you placed time and energy into a warrior ultimate weapon just know that it is ***and play with an axe but wait till 200 tp to get your calamity off and if you wanna match caladbolg sub thief. Also spend all your Gil on dark matter to push your weaponskills to an acceptable level.

Also you don’t see sams meriting shiki to benefit the party just sayin. I’m playing warrior not bard.

You are so far off of being correct that I actually think you are a troll.
Lol at thinking that is an ideal build for drk.

Must be a troll or something.

We all know it will be PLD after Atonement gets buffed. Be real guys

Pretty sure he meant to sub thf on war to mqtch calad ws numbers. Doesnt change the fact he is trolling :)

To be fair Simon, while I respect your ability to analyze numbers I think you base your judgmenets on how the game works just a little bit too heavily on them. Numbers are great for generalizing, but in actual game content things never play out quite like we anticipate, and the more our math is off the more our judgments are off. And if we tunnel vision on one thing we may overlook alternative possibilities. Talking about thief specifically here, you always cite twashter/centovente over twashter/taming sari, for example, as the superior choice because cento offhand produces higher rudra's numbers at 1K TP. But you completely ignore the fact that instead of using rudra's storm a twashter/taming sari build can just spam evisceration at 1K TP instead when they aren't stacking sneak or trick attack. And you automatically dismiss the fact that the twashter/taming playstile might potentially produce better results just because it's different from what you think should be ideal. Case in point, your views are subject to personal bias just as much as mine or anyone else's are.

We've had this discussion already and it always devolves into people trying to defend their jobs or promote their personal playstyle and point of view. There's been so much power creep in the game that I think we're all a bit disconnected from what most of the jobs are "truly" capable of. S-E has really leveled the playing field between the jobs, and I think the peak potential of most of them is pretty similar nowadays. Buffs are so broken they play a much bigger part in performance than individual player or job differences. Samurai/chaos, min min march march, fury/frailty does way more to push a players performance than any other factor. So long as the job is geared to its peak and played correctly they all perform similarly under those extreme buff conditions.

Upheaval is a little disappointing but you get high WS frequency and frequent skillchains. Warrior in general disappoints a bit outside of Mighty Strikes, I feel compared to DRG and MNK, at least (I don't have SAM or DRK geared). Warcry is awesome though (not as big of a benefit to monk?) and the ability to cover slashing/piercing/blunt weaknesses well in a single slot is valuable.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/54386/what-heavy-dd-would-you-pick-and-why

Here is the thread that already covered this thred. This time linked before the boobs.

I have played with max DRG/MNK/SAM/DRK in game quite a bit, unless you are testing drg on something stupid like neak, they are all SHOCKINGLY similar in DPS. If you think they dont because of spreadsheet, then your spreadsheet is broken. Honestly most spreadsheets are pretty bad, every few weeks we find some pretty bad errors in them. I would not confidently say anyone of them pulls ahead in general. Sam and war are the only two that pull ahead and that is because of 1 hour abilities being crazy strong on them. Then sam has jinpu but that is a big can of worms. Mnk mauls the blunt weak mob. DRG kills dragon etc.

You arent too and you are nitpicking beside that obvious WSC error I did.

It's 56%DA I think, not 57%. 33% base and 23% in gear.

3%QA is 9% MA
56%DA is 0.56 * 0.97 = 54.32% MA
Total: 63.32% so my 70%MA rate was actually very optimistic and I dont know where you get 81% from.
Your WSD is from DM augments. Every job will be stronger with DM augments. I clearly wasnt talking about DM augments. Alos your total vit will also be lower with your DM augments because I was assuming 4%WSD/15VIT augments.

After Fixing WSC and MA rate and assuming 2300TP:

R15 Chango: 352 dmg
VIT: 339
DEX: 249
WSC: 0.85 * 339 + 0.1 * 249 = ~365
Total base: 365 + 352 = 717
pdif: 3.95
fTP at lets say 2300 TP (Moonshade+Chango+TPoverflow) with 56% WSD: 4.4 * 1.56 = 6.864
MA rate ~63.32%
fTP from additional hits: 3 + 1.266 = 4.266
Total fTP: 6.864 + 4.4 = 11.264
Chango bonus: 10%

717 * 3.95 * 11.264 * 1.1 = 35 091

Tho I kinda doubt your 3hit build to 1170 is without Fighter's roll, which again is cutting buffs specifically for WAR. This is also perfect scenario I bet with Crooked 11 SAM roll? or Crooked 11 Fighter's roll? That being said assuming you WS at avg 1550TP is kinda controversial at best and goes almost under "holding TP" factor or some specific scenario where WAR is also a tank and you count in TP from retaliations, so that 35k is imo really optimistic for scenario when you really try to spam it.

Now Twashtar/Cento DNC will do same WS damage but with probably slightly worse WS frequency (tho maybe not if you assume 1550 TP avg on WAR and I would assume close to 1000 on DNC), but higher skillchain. How is DNC WAYYYY behind WAR then?

I mean.... fighters roll was specifically mentioned. You mentioned that I use it too.... You asked me what buffs and where and it was mentioned.
I posted the buffs taht you should of used, unless you went rogue. It kinda seems like you lose track of what you are supposed to be mathing out. Granted, i lose track of thins when conversations carry on.
Holding TP would mean adding an extra attack round. which would put warrior closer to 1900 TP before firing. so no.
I also mentioned the tank part.
That is a great thing to mention when posting numbers.
Highly debatable. If bard can cap attack without 1 hour buffs on neak and onchyphora... I am however assuming max bard geo cor and lightshot. Armor break if DPS is ever looking weird, rarely happens though. The heavy DD and cor should have no issues with capping attack unless situation is weird.

Still if the above means DNC is way behind WAR, then WAR is way behind MNK :)

Well I actually always write augments in comment section, so if you click the name of the set, it will be written on the page there.

I have a max geared mnk and dnc too. I know where they stand. I assume this is an attempt at being salty? I think you already forgot that i mentioned i have those jobs geared...
Way behind your spreadsheets? maybe. Way behind what happens in game? lol

Not sure about what you talking now. About dnc not being behind or war not being behind? :)

I see, you have just digressed to troll mode. It is pretty obvious i thought. Also serious question, is English your second language? A lot of the debates you get in are over you not understanding what people say. You get defensive when people disagree and when they try to explain things still dont get understood, seems like a language barrier to me. Granted I do too at times. It would make a lot of sense. I am not trying to be mean. I am just asking out of curiosity.

This is an important debate because math.

Yeah, it is my second language, but many times when I ask people to explain what they wrote, it is not because I dont understand, but because I like to be sure, that I understand the meaning and logic behind the words or like in example above, I just like to joke when words alone arent clear enough, even when meaning is very clear :P

Im also have nothing to be salty about. I play all DD jobs beside SAM (tho not all on the same char and I dont play SAM only because I just havent gear it yet).

Hmmm, 40K

Set 1 is the set Simon posted up above, set 2 is mine, because I don't use Oseem.

Well we already established that according to Spaitin avg tp to fire off ws will be 1550 not 1250.

EDIT: NVM i understand your calculator now. Qa and rest of da is in equip section.

1550 instead of 1250 is still not 40K average. 40K would be an outlier due to a QA proc.

Well I also think his numbers are way above actual avg and if he would do controlled test instead of trying to recall it in memory, he would notice it. He said that those are numbers from Ambuscades, but he probably mixing up numbers from escha too, where ws numbers are much higher.

Im not gonna push this further tho. I have zero interest to actually convince people to anything with more effort than just providing some math and show my point of view and I already did both.

Going off tangent since OP was talking about "Best WS DD" but, do you have any evidence to support this arbitrary claim?

To answer OP, any class that has a primary "spam-able" WS that is affected by TP overflow is going to be best regardless of the associated WS or class.

That being said; DRG,SAM and DNC will have a slight advantage, since they also have WSBoost, WSD, STP, SCDMG, Conserve TP & 1kTP Bonus off hand in the case of DNC.