August Ambuscade Volume One

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2018-08-14
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August Ambuscade Volume One
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 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2018-08-10 16:07:23
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Afania said: »
For 1) Watching another group doing ambu VD, hate doesn't seem like an issue at all. Not one single imp went to backline in entire run, which took 2 min to buff + 3.5 min to kill all.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/294809496?t=01h23m50s

From what I've seen, if there's an issue with hate, it's probably a different problem.

Higher quality tank than what I've played with then. If you're lucky enough to have one of those HQ tanks (and people who can remove statuses quickly off them), then by all means, sub whatever you want.
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By Afania 2018-08-10 16:23:15
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Spam foil like mad should work for those with imps hate.
 Shiva.Berzerk
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By Shiva.Berzerk 2018-08-10 16:45:38
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Shiva.Arislan said: »
Afania said: »
For 1) Watching another group doing ambu VD, hate doesn't seem like an issue at all. Not one single imp went to backline in entire run, which took 2 min to buff + 3.5 min to kill all.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/294809496?t=01h23m50s

From what I've seen, if there's an issue with hate, it's probably a different problem.

Higher quality tank than what I've played with then. If you're lucky enough to have one of those HQ tanks (and people who can remove statuses quickly off them), then by all means, sub whatever you want.

Not trying to diminish a super clean run, but the PLD popped invincible immediately upon aggro in that quick run. The run afterwards looks like had some issues with macros but even once they got hate moves going there were a few imps going to back line. Haven't had a chance to try this month yet but i'm sure it's gonna be kinda annoying to spam foil etc with all those imps on you and then can't exactly pop JA because of amnesia. Looks like a sorta fun fight though.
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By Afania 2018-08-10 17:03:20
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Shiva.Berzerk said: »
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Afania said: »
For 1) Watching another group doing ambu VD, hate doesn't seem like an issue at all. Not one single imp went to backline in entire run, which took 2 min to buff + 3.5 min to kill all.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/294809496?t=01h23m50s

From what I've seen, if there's an issue with hate, it's probably a different problem.

Higher quality tank than what I've played with then. If you're lucky enough to have one of those HQ tanks (and people who can remove statuses quickly off them), then by all means, sub whatever you want.

Not trying to diminish a super clean run, but the PLD popped invincible immediately upon aggro in that quick run. The run afterwards looks like had some issues with macros but even once they got hate moves going there were a few imps going to back line. Haven't had a chance to try this month yet but i'm sure it's gonna be kinda annoying to spam foil etc with all those imps on you and then can't exactly pop JA because of amnesia. Looks like a sorta fun fight though.

Admittedly I didn't watch the entire thing for hours, I just randomly click a part in the middle and linked it. I do see another 3.5 min kill near the end though, faster than the one I linked, and I doubt they can invinicible back to back lol.

Just keep in mind that RUN is better at aoe hate so even if PLD had difficulty to hold all it shouldn't be an issue with foil spam on RUN. If spell get interrupted just build an interruption set.

Personally, I just hate /DRG :<
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-08-10 17:09:00
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Starting with Aquaveil up and using Battuta after positioning everything makes Foil trivial to get off, and by the time Battuta wears (with judicious use of JAs as well for hate), you'll have enough hate on every single Imp to not even need to get more hate on them.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-10 18:49:39
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You know this month is garbage when it's friday and there are more or less zero shouts on asura for it...

(discounting VD, I'm not tryharding)
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 Bismarck.Cloudstrafie
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By Bismarck.Cloudstrafie 2018-08-10 18:56:11
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The trick to shield was found last time this *** came around, once double shield is up damage will be based with person LOWEST on eminity table, thats why last time smn's were sought after due to pet hate
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-10 19:08:06
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Bismarck.Cloudstrafie said: »
The trick to shield was found last time this *** came around, once double shield is up damage will be based with person LOWEST on eminity table, thats why last time smn's were sought after due to pet hate

Just no. That's not it. If it were that, then GEO would be able to nuke the shield.
 Bismarck.Cloudstrafie
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By Bismarck.Cloudstrafie 2018-08-10 19:50:57
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Bismarck.Cloudstrafie said: »
The trick to shield was found last time this *** came around, once double shield is up damage will be based with person LOWEST on eminity table, thats why last time smn's were sought after due to pet hate

Just no. That's not it. If it were that, then GEO would be able to nuke the shield.


Most of the time when i do see shield goes MG>magic shield> main shield
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-10 19:51:58
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It's the same shield. Just twice.

It'd only take 10 minutes to get a definitive answer on what the shield is. and how to break it.

Just stand there for 2 minutes, let it put the god damn (double) shield up, and then break it. without smn. It'll be very obvious how it was broken if you pay the slightest bit of attention.
 Bismarck.Cloudstrafie
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By Bismarck.Cloudstrafie 2018-08-10 20:16:26
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iirc, on the month he came up it was tested i dont remember which month it came out or where in the forums to even start digging if the thread is still even there
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-10 20:19:03
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December 16'

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/48624/ambuscade-findings/21/

Vex/Attune was still broken at the time, it was cake to melee.

Quote:
For V1 (D,VD) it seems there might be a small window that you need to kill NM after adds are dead, if you fail and NM was at 20% shield gets up with TP spikes and silence Aura full-time and nothing works to break it.

More testing is needed.

Quote:
I'm not sure if it's been posted, but I think the trick to the Soulflayer is to remove its single shield as quickly as possible. If it gets a double shield then it seems impossible to do any damage to it.

Quote:
There are two shield levels, single and double. It gains a shield level when it uses Immortal Shield (I think.) If it has a single shield up already, then it gains a double shield. The rate at which it uses shields seemed to be time related (from when you defeat the last Imp) and not TP related but I can't be 100% sure on this. We did it with PLD RNG RNG COR GEO WHM. We weren't able to do anything to it once the double shield was up (basically this was a loss), but if our DPS was quick enough we were able to remove the single shield (thus preventing the double shield.) Critical hits seemed to do damage through the single shield and may be responsible for removing the single shield (and perhaps this is why Volt Strike works.) We used Coronach on the Imps (we would otherwise sometimes pull them over to us) and Jishnu's Radiance on the boss because it did damage through the shield. I can't remark on whether SMN can do damage through the double shield. I am skeptical as if you can do fast DPS you'll kill it before it even has a chance to do that.
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By Afania 2018-08-10 20:35:01
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
December 16'

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/48624/ambuscade-findings/21/

Vex/Attune was still broken at the time, it was cake to melee.

If you prefer to melee I'd probably try it with this setup:

RUN WAR COR GEO BRD WHM. Bolster Vex/frailty/wilt, SV honor march/madrigal x2/fire carol/bar amnesia/runeist/sam

RUN run in, foil, WAR fell cleave.
Run flash pull master away, WAR fell cleave spam until imps dead. WHM curebomb WAR like mad. COR could help with killing imps too.
After all imps dead everyone engage the master and zerg it down.

I can't promise this strat to work at all since I haven't try. But for those who just really want to melee maybe super buff meva is a good way to avoid amnesia spams?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-10 20:36:36
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Afania said: »

No.

Quote:
Can't cleave them. Went on WAR for a VD run day 1 to test that, and all Fell Cleaves would do full damage to my target, and a whopping 82-83 damage to every other imp.

Please just wildfire the damn double shield. I mean Christ. Wasting time bothering. If it does damage then we know its a VERY strong phalanx. If it does zero damage, then try something else. I'm not even sure SMN breaks it. Half of you don't even understand the concept of there being 2 shields.
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By Afania 2018-08-10 20:39:06
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Afania said: »

No.

Quote:
Can't cleave them. Went on WAR for a VD run day 1 to test that, and all Fell Cleaves would do full damage to my target, and a whopping 82-83 damage to every other imp.

Have to engage one by one then! lol.
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By malakef 2018-08-10 20:44:08
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You can tp the imps and WS the manipulator just fine no need to kill imps first with melee set up. The issue with melee set up is still getting DD out of the way of azure lore spam and amnesia spam. Vex and attunement help but it’s still a rough go.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-08-11 00:21:30
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
It's the same shield. Just twice.

It'd only take 10 minutes to get a definitive answer on what the shield is. and how to break it.

Just stand there for 2 minutes, let it put the god damn (double) shield up, and then break it. without smn. It'll be very obvious how it was broken if you pay the slightest bit of attention.

I already posted a definitive answer on how the shield works and how to break it. Crits and WS damage only to the single shield (and both deal 50% of normal damage), nothing to the double shield. Pet damage is exempt. If you don't believe it feel free to test it yourself.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-11 00:23:24
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It's what I said on the first damn page. Impossible to break the second shield.

*with ranged

But 3 pages later people still saying it can be broken claiming random ***.

Bismarck.Cloudstrafie said: »
The trick to shield was found last time this *** came around, once double shield is up damage will be based with person LOWEST on eminity table, thats why last time smn's were sought after due to pet hate

Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Wildfire>Wildfire for Darkness and whittle him down for a win the one time we had him proc his lv.2 Shield.

Either you're wrong, or they're full of ***.

Other people claiming dumbshit like "top 2 enmity" "lowest 2 enmity" "ranged damage ignores shield"
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By Afania 2018-08-11 02:56:33
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Just did some runs before bed, I think I figured out how to deal with double shields.

Setup: PLD COR COR GEO(NQ) BRD SCH....not the strongest setup, but it was late so we just got whoever we got.

The fastest run without any double shield took 8ish min including 2 min buff time. But since this setup lacks firepower with just 2 DD and NQ GEO, double shield went up 2/3 runs.

In our first run, I used last stand and it did damage to double shield, after a few last stand shield disappear and we got to DPS normal again.

Proof in case Eiryl doesn't believe it XD


You can clearly see my crit did 0 damage, prove it's double shield not single. And yet last stand did 10471 damage.

In our 3rd run, double shield went up again after I died, thus unable to break it in time

This time last stand did 0, but wildfire did 1900ish. no screenshot since it was chaotic at that time, unfortunely.

After a few wf it no longer did any damage. Or maybe it was broken then it put up double shield again, so the SCH tried thunder nuke/mb and did damage.

Proof:



I think before thunder worked he nuked ice or water for damage, then it changed to weak against thunder.

Theory for double shield: It blocks all damage but one element WS/Magic including physical. So you'd have to try every single damage type for nuke/ws to find out the right element that can do damage to it. There is a possiblity that the weakness element changes every once a while.

I think SMN is not required if RNG and COR has crit set, but they'd have to be pretty strong and all needs a crit set. Appearantly soulflayer can put up double shield really quick, if your COR and RNG can't deal enough damage to break the shield fast enough, double shield will be PITA to remove.

If I'm going with the best setup, it'd probably be RUN COR COR COR or RNG BRD idris. And all ranged DD carries a crit set. I think a top end COR x3 or COR x2+1 RNG can clear the whole thing in less than 5 min, considering we cleared with just 2 cor in 8ish min and a 30% to 40% DPS gap between 2 DDs, sub 5 min should be doable with 3 DD.

Alternatively if your ranged DD isn't quite there for DPS, change 1 DD to a SMN is a good choice.
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By Afania 2018-08-11 03:57:26
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Also since I should be on the highest enmity list besides tank (didn't use enmity- set for WS, nor /DRG, had highest dmg % on parse), and managed to bypass double shield with last stand/wildfire, I think that's enough evidence to disprove the theory about only lowest enmity DD could bypass shield.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-11 04:30:44
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Based on the pictures, it still looks like large phalanx effect tbh.

Thunder 3 did zero, thunder 5 did 1400 but bursted thunder 5 did 5k, I'm assuming your sch person wasn't gimp as ***. and that bursted thunder 5 would've done 25k~ (or more) So it wasn't "just weak to thunder" (assuming you were smart enough to put down malaise or langour etc)

I wish you would've just done what I asked though.

No shield wf =
single wf =
double wf =
all 3 with same buffs

Or if you like the "pick an element" theory
Thunder shot no shield =
Thunder shot single shield =
"correct element" double shield =
With a DP you shouldn't do zero, if there is a "correct element"

I assume it's not "pick one element" as I tried all 6 QD and all hit for 0, it has to either be "pick one AND some amount of additional phalanx" or "large amount of phalanx" ( I could've been resisted, idk, I don't care enough to make a great QD set)

It's real simple ***, but you guys make it like pulling teeth.
 Cerberus.Boogs
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By Cerberus.Boogs 2018-08-11 08:42:08
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Afania said: »
Just did some runs before bed, I think I figured out how to deal with double shields.

Setup: PLD COR COR GEO(NQ) BRD SCH....not the strongest setup, but it was late so we just got whoever we got.

The fastest run without any double shield took 8ish min including 2 min buff time. But since this setup lacks firepower with just 2 DD and NQ GEO, double shield went up 2/3 runs.

In our first run, I used last stand and it did damage to double shield, after a few last stand shield disappear and we got to DPS normal again.

Proof in case Eiryl doesn't believe it XD
(image removed)

You can clearly see my crit did 0 damage, prove it's double shield not single. And yet last stand did 10471 damage.

In our 3rd run, double shield went up again after I died, thus unable to break it in time

This time last stand did 0, but wildfire did 1900ish. no screenshot since it was chaotic at that time, unfortunely.

After a few wf it no longer did any damage. Or maybe it was broken then it put up double shield again, so the SCH tried thunder nuke/mb and did damage.

Proof:
(images removed)

I think before thunder worked he nuked ice or water for damage, then it changed to weak against thunder.

Theory for double shield: It blocks all damage but one element WS/Magic including physical. So you'd have to try every single damage type for nuke/ws to find out the right element that can do damage to it. There is a possiblity that the weakness element changes every once a while.

I think SMN is not required if RNG and COR has crit set, but they'd have to be pretty strong and all needs a crit set. Appearantly soulflayer can put up double shield really quick, if your COR and RNG can't deal enough damage to break the shield fast enough, double shield will be PITA to remove.

If I'm going with the best setup, it'd probably be RUN COR COR COR or RNG BRD idris. And all ranged DD carries a crit set. I think a top end COR x3 or COR x2+1 RNG can clear the whole thing in less than 5 min, considering we cleared with just 2 cor in 8ish min and a 30% to 40% DPS gap between 2 DDs, sub 5 min should be doable with 3 DD.

Alternatively if your ranged DD isn't quite there for DPS, change 1 DD to a SMN is a good choice.

This is not proof in the slightest. Where are the other level 5 spells? I see a bunch of low tier spells that do 0 damage (of various elements) and then Thunder V. I don't see how this is a methodical test. You should be comparing all other level 5 spells. The order of your spells need to be tested as well. Who's to say that the gimmick isn't simply just "must go through entire elemental wheel before damage applies"?
 Bahamut.Malothar
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By Bahamut.Malothar 2018-08-11 09:44:54
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If it wasn't clear, the one nuking wasn't Afania. It's not proof or some methodological testing, it's simply an account of what happened with pictures.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-11 09:46:09
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Bahamut.Malothar said: »
If it wasn't clear, the one nuking wasn't Afania. It's not proof or some methodological testing, it's simply an account of what happened with pictures.

AKA; mostly irrelevant info. which is why;
Asura.Eiryl said: »
I wish you would've just done what I asked though.
It's real simple ***, but you guys make it like pulling teeth.

5 pages deep on something that takes 10 minutes to solidly verify. And no, snaps did not give definitive anything, as Afania just showed that double can be broken.
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By Valefor.Angierus 2018-08-11 10:25:39
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Your fatal flaw was asking for help on the forums.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-08-11 10:45:39
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The answer on the first shield is correct. It's not some phalanx effect. Look at the log I posted. I am attack capped and the damage on crits with/without level 1 shield is exactly 50% (same with WS numbers.) Also upon reviewing the logs I posted, I think relic 3x proc does explain the rogue hit that did damage. It's exactly 1.5x my normal ranged attacks. So you can do damage through the level 1 shield using crits, relic 3x procs, and weaponskills and they're all cut by 50%. It might be interesting to test empyrean aftermath to see if the ODT can also go through the level 1 shield.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-11 10:47:58
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Not a single *** given about single shield really. (amount of damage required to break would be worth knowing)

It's only in the "test" to verify that double shield is in fact up.

And to be clear, I only say "Phalanx effect" because that's what salty put on the BG page. And until someone actually shows it's 50DT instead, that's what I'm going with.

Quote:
Immortal Shield - Status Enhancement Gains a potent phalanx and TP absorbing spikes effect while active.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-08-11 11:03:51
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I already showed it's 50 DT. Read the logs lmao.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-08-11 11:09:20
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Your log wasn't very clear. You said "single shield" so I didn't even look at it.
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By Afania 2018-08-11 11:12:35
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Asura.Eiryl said: »

Thunder 3 did zero, thunder 5 did 1400 but bursted thunder 5 did 5k, I'm assuming your sch person wasn't gimp as ***. and that bursted thunder 5 would've done 25k~ (or more) So it wasn't "just weak to thunder" (assuming you were smart enough to put down malaise or langour etc)

I probably misworded it......more like "susceptible to thunder" at that time.

GEO didn't change bubble, so no malaise. But that nuke was much lower than his normal nukes, so it was probably phalanx.... or damage reduction.

The 10k last stand in the pic with phalanx wasn't my normal last stand damage on soulflayer as well, last stand normally hits 2x harder without shield.


Asura.Eiryl said: »
Or if you like the "pick an element" theory
Thunder shot no shield =
Thunder shot single shield =
"correct element" double shield =
With a DP you shouldn't do zero, if there is a "correct element"

I assume it's not "pick one element" as I tried all 6 QD and all hit for 0, it has to either be "pick one AND some amount of additional phalanx" or "large amount of phalanx" ( I could've been resisted, idk, I don't care enough to make a great QD set)
.

If double shield is 10k to 20k phalanx, then it makes sense that all 6 QD elements hits 0, since it's normally not easy to hit 20k QDs.

Double shield seems susceptible to 1 element, and only that element can do damage, but that element is still affected by phalanx. Everything else is just straight 0.

Cerberus.Boogs said: »
This is not proof in the slightest. Where are the other level 5 spells? I see a bunch of low tier spells that do 0 damage (of various elements) and then Thunder V. I don't see how this is a methodical test. You should be comparing all other level 5 spells. The order of your spells need to be tested as well. Who's to say that the gimmick isn't simply just "must go through entire elemental wheel before damage applies"?

I assumed element changed because on first double shield last stand did damage, on 2nd double shield last stand can no longer do damage but wf worked. Then WF no longer worked but thunder V worked.

It's not a formal test nor anything, thus I said it's "theory" of how it works but not conclusion. it's just one failed run that double shield happened to be up so we had to try everything to knock it off without a SMN, then just happened to found that double shield can be susceptible to something.
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