Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

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2020-03-17
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Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-02-05 08:38:04
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Regarding Feral Howl set on front page:

BST can also use Ullr bow for +40 Macc. Might be a good conditional swap to include over Pemphredo, if TP loss is not a concern. I assume it wasn't included the same that Pangu was not for that reason.
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 Bismarck.Rwolf
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By Bismarck.Rwolf 2020-02-05 09:14:45
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Wishful thinking while I read BST and revert. For a split second I hoped it was a last minute fold on distance as well lol. Glad for the change back to ready animation time.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-02-05 09:50:52
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It would have been nice if they changed Sic/Ready merits from 2 to 3 seconds. Inventory +1 from tassets and fixes the issue people brought up about gear not swapping in time. And removes the need for low level gear
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By Felgarr 2020-02-05 09:54:03
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Regarding Feral Howl set on front page:

BST can also use Ullr bow for +40 Macc. Might be a good conditional swap to include over Pemphredo, if TP loss is not a concern. I assume it wasn't included the same that Pangu was not for that reason.

This is a nice observation. I typically allow myself to lose TP on BST given how frequently we used to swap into Charmer's Merlin, I'm just used to it. (And, given the lower frequency of Feral Howl vs Ready moves, I personally think it's ok to lose TP, given the amount of M.Acc you get from Pangu and Ullr).
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-02-05 10:11:47
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Felgarr said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Regarding Feral Howl set on front page:

BST can also use Ullr bow for +40 Macc. Might be a good conditional swap to include over Pemphredo, if TP loss is not a concern. I assume it wasn't included the same that Pangu was not for that reason.

This is a nice observation. I typically allow myself to lose TP on BST given how frequently we used to swap into Charmer's Merlin, I'm just used to it. (And, given the lower frequency of Feral Howl vs Ready moves, I personally think it's ok to lose TP, given the amount of M.Acc you get from Pangu and Ullr).

I just checked the set again and realized I don't have a macc cape (yet). Did a search and BST can also use Sacro Mantle for +20 Macc.
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2020-02-05 10:14:27
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Asura.Sirris said: »
Vankathka said: »
Now we have useless pets, extremely minimal AF gear that boosts pets, and a range nerf that just makes the job so obnoxious to even do basic things like reward or issue readys unless directly beside your pet, even standing on opposite sides in Domain Invasion and you're out of range, and even this range nerf would be fine, if we atleast had the damage to back it up but pets even fully buffed do probably half of a single volt strike locked behind animation time, so there is no reward to the extra risk.

All this speaks to the incoherence of beastmaster's design, right? There is just this weirdness with abilities like Charm being orphaned, pet families lacking 119 jugs, the arbitrary Ready/Reward range nerfs which remove beast from many pet strats. We are supposed to be a melee class now but the axe weapon type is, like BST, just all over. We have two magical WS but the gear to support them isn't given to us. We have Mistral Axe/Calamity, which fall behind Savage Blade. And we have Decimation, which is tied to a certain weapon that WAR (and DRK, and probably even RUN) can make better use of. The pet/master buffs are a neat idea but they are too limited right now. And of course the Ready activation timer change broke something, lol.

It's frustrating too because Square-Enix was ultimately successful with puppetmaster's design. The master is pretty good. The pet is great, both powerful and it covers a broad range of roles. It's customizable and purposeful. There's lots of gear you can work into builds. When S-E cares they can make things work. They don't care about BST.

Just saw this, and I think its a really great post.

Incoherent is the best way to describe the state of BST right now, I honestly struggle to understand how SE expect people to play the job in its current state.

Its seems crazy to me that the job with far and away the largest number of pets is expected to play in a manner that most closely resembles the pet job with the most limited set of pet options (DRG). Just on the basis of their autonomy of movement, the range restriction is debilitating

This to me is the crux of the problem with SE's "vision" for the job, its like a worse version of their determined efforts to ensure that NIN wasn't used to tank. In their efforts to prevent a certain style of play they are completely overlooking what makes a job useful and valuable.

Right now (in my view at least) BST is compromised in every aspect, literally nothing works as well as it could or should.

For example, the master has no DW traits despite it being mainly tied to a single-handed weapon class (certainly in the sense of pieces with pet ability enhancements). Fencer is of limited utility thanks to a severely restricted range of equipable shields. none of which incorporate job (pet) specific enhancements.

This is a huge issue for a purportedly front-line job, particularly so when all the dedicated DD classes are so strong.

The upside I guess is that gearing can be improved piecemeal over time, but for now its such a mess that I struggle to motivate myself because I'm really not sure what BST is supposed to look like anymore.

There has to be some sort of priority; be it pet first or master first because you cant realistically focus on both, especially given the semi-autonomous nature of pets, their need for constant maintenance, and the requirements of front-row combat.
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By DononofSylph 2020-02-05 12:23:34
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Every end game event.. ambuscade... High Tier Battlefields... Dynamis..Omen.. should have a charmable mob locked in a cage in the corner somewhere.

BST will have to use a jug pet until they are given the opportunity to be able to charm said mob, which will have a success rate depending on gear..merits etc etc.

Once charmed, BST will have access to Ready moves and actually be provided with a pet who can hold their own. When the mob dies, the BST has to use jug pets, which plays into the reward system and conservation of your beloved pet!

For Waves 2/3 and such events where there are progressive levels.. there will be another caged mob to coincide with the level of new mobs.

Just throwing an idea out of my ***... ignore me... but I miss charming mobs.
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By fonewear 2020-02-05 12:25:03
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Is BST great yet ?
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By Lakshmi.Leosin 2020-02-05 13:08:30
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Bismarck.Rwolf said: »
Wishful thinking while I read BST and revert. For a split second I hoped it was a last minute fold on distance as well lol. Glad for the change back to ready animation time.

So much of this.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-02-05 13:17:49
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DononofSylph said: »
Just throwing an idea out of my ***... ignore me... but I miss charming mobs.

It would be nice if they did something with Gauge/Tame since they are useless in modern gameplay. Maybe allow it to remove immunities to Terror or Charm, similar to an Immunobreak chance. Crazy BST gets all this Charm+ gear but it is mostly meaningless.

What are the strongest monsters in the game that are still charmable? Nearly everything in Ra'Kaznar is immune
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2020-02-05 13:30:50
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Very good points. Beastmaster is rather incoherent for a role.

There is this pattern in its history of reducing its key features, presumably to reduce design and development costs.

I would narrow this down to 2 key design aspects from the original game:

1. Solo Job design
2. Charm

The solo design issues are mostly gone now. IE the xp penalty to player and party for having a pet, and the preference for summoning pets rather than charming them completely address the solo vs party issues from the past. However, the new party issue is about buffs. Its not as severe, but its still a tedious limiting factor in the design.

2. Charm was the key identifying ability of the beastmaster.

The Key design challenge to charm is that it really depends on the Environment more than any other spell or ability.
It demanded the beastmasters, as players, not just in the lore, really NEEDED to study and understand the zones VERY well. Beastmasters always needed to pay very close attention to all the mobs abilities, how they interact with each other, WHERE each individual mob spawns, terrain, movement patterns and the mechanics of managing them.

This is alot of fun for the players that gravitated to the job and stuck with it.

However, it places a high design burden on the development team for every new zone and mob.
When Designing a zone with mobs for every other job, they have to balance the abilities and power of the mobs for players to be able to defeat. However, for beastmaster, They have to balance it as it is a weapon for the beastmaster. MOBS and players were designed on different scales. Mob designs tend to be much simpler than player character designs. So they took shortcuts. These shortcuts did not work well for balance when the mob is a weapon in the players hand instead of an obstacle to fight against.

The developers responded to this challenge in increasingly insufficient ways. They kept adding bandaids, when they needed surgery and stitches.
They Made mobs uncharmable
They made jug pets for when charming was not possible
They limited charm more and more
They make jug pets MORE powerful to combat the level changes
Then they need to make jug pets LESS powerful
And they try to fit bst into the playstyle of a dragoon because they don't want to/are not able to balance bst pets.

Which means we have followed a twisty path and landed in a Quagmire regarding the job's fundamental design goals. Making a solo only job is horrible, because its against the design of the whole game.

Keeping charm as the central design aspect is the best in my opinion regarding the concept and theme of the job. (AND FUN!) However, it may not be financially practical. However, its the best for the job in my opinion.

So where to go from the current quagmire? The lack of coherence?
What is the role?

As fun as it is to have some attack and def buffs from pets, I don't like it as a design choice. narrowing down the options even more, narrowing the role to a dd with a few meager support abilities is not so appealing. It will just continue to kill the job. There will be some very short term interest to test it out, but that interest will quickly fade, if it hasn't already.

I like it being a hybrid job. I would like if bst could tank.

A more general 'fix' would be a way to balance buffs between pet and master. I'm not sure the right way to do it. I would like it if the power balance around 50/50 between pet and master. allowing buffs to affect both pet and master in some way would accomplish this. Then power adjustments just need to match.

I think having a variety of useful summoned pets is the great 'balance' for bst. You have to choose which pet abilities are more valuable in a certain situation. Is it damage? is it specific resistances? is it specific abilities? That is how bst can only manage 1 role at a time. unlike how other jobs have job ability stances.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-05 15:11:02
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Bst used to be debatably the best job at fighting things at distance. Since they nerfed that, they havnt given bst anything else to be good at. SMN has much better pet buffs that effect the party. BST still relies on non ilvl gear for ready moves (encouraging distance fighting). It needs something to be good at. As it is, it's best quality is gimp dps.

Even giving back the range wouldn't fix most of the issues.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2020-02-05 15:33:54
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Spaitin said: »
Even giving back the range wouldn't fix most of the issues.

it would not, but it would at least revive the pet style. Thats what really got killed.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-05 15:38:31
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
it would not, but it would at least revive the pet style.
idk. you can just have a pup and smn do the ranged pet set up still.

I dont think the ranged set up being brought back would fix anything. Would just give you something else SMN is better at.
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By Bismarck.Rwolf 2020-02-05 17:02:43
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I agree, a lot of BST's identity has been pretty much killed off. I would love for a revival of old mechanics and identity returned.

Charm could be a useful crowd control with some changes. Leave on jug pets should reset Call Beast like PUP. So you can decide between charming an enemy pet or jug pet dynamically. All ilevel mobs in the ecosystems charmable to include pets and adds. I miss all the manipulative things you could do with charmable mobs.

I think it would be awesome if Charm could remove charm from a player. Base removal rate with Charm+ adding to the chance like Cursna.

Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Incoherent is the best way to describe the state of BST right now, I honestly struggle to understand how SE expect people to play the job in its current state.

Its seems crazy to me that the job with far and away the largest number of pets is expected to play in a manner that most closely resembles the pet job with the most limited set of pet options (DRG). Just on the basis of their autonomy of movement, the range restriction is debilitating

I agree. So many pets but further and further restrictions to not even use them. Also weaker jugs that are skins or pets for glamour? Looking at you Brave Hero Glenn.

Inventory sucks. They need to ditch jugs and make us learn new pets like trusts/mounts. If they want an item for use so bad, a new all-purpose biscuit recipe that stacks to 99 so that when you call from the list it eats 1.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-02-05 17:11:20
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I mean, it's pretty obvious that SE expects the BST to be in melee range (and meleeing) at all times with their pet; they've been pretty insistent on this, so I don't see how it's incoherent.

The only thing that goes against that is the "out of range" troubles, but that's more SE's programming/adjusting incompetence than inconsistent job concept.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-02-05 17:15:36
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Someone made a really good point, pet command range if tied to the mob being fought would serve the same purpose, with no downside.

They would have to ensure that you couldn't hold any mob and pretend to melee it to issue commands against the actual mob you want to kill, but with everything instanced I don't think it's a really valid concern.

If you're close enough to hit a mob, then you can issue commands to your pet (kinda like a samba) if you move away from it, you can't. Instead of the damn game spazzing out because you can't control where and when a pet moves in and out of range.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-05 17:16:46
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Asura.Geriond said: »
they've been pretty insistent on this, so I don't see how it's incoherent.
I am actually fine with being next to the pet. It is incoherent though. They dont really have good gear that buffs master and pet.

I.E a TP set that gives the master AND the pet some DA or TA. Pet doesnt really need STP. A boost to pet white dmg would at least be something. As it is right now, Master by itself isnt much different than pet + master.
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2020-02-05 17:50:27
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The fundamental issue is that different styles of play need their own specific support to function to best effect.

You can't be the best Melee or Ranged DD if you aren't supported with specific buffs. Same as you can't be the best pet player or nuker without buffs for those rolls.

When a job gets hybridized like BST is right now it just doesn't work because basically it needs to be in the DD party and the Pet party at the same time! Picking just one compromises the other.

This is what SE seems to be struggling with. They won't commit to fully strengthening both the pet-dps and master-dps sides out of fear that the job will become too powerful. Yet their half-measure improvements leave both roles lagging behind specialist classes without receiving effectively double the support from the rest of the party/alliance.
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-02-05 17:58:10
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Spaitin said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
they've been pretty insistent on this, so I don't see how it's incoherent.
I am actually fine with being next to the pet. It is incoherent though. They dont really have good gear that buffs master and pet.

I.E a TP set that gives the master AND the pet some DA or TA. Pet doesnt really need STP. A boost to pet white dmg would at least be something. As it is right now, Master by itself isnt much different than pet + master.
I'm pretty sure that's the point; SE wants the BST to stay in range meleeing, but to either focus on master damage (with master buffs and gear) or to focus on pet damage (with pet buffs and gear). They don't want the player to be able to set themselves up to have both be great, but to have the option of either (even if both options are substandard).

It's silly, but it's not incoherent; a job concept being coherent and a job concept being GOOD are two separate things.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-05 18:02:58
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Asura.Geriond said: »
It's silly, but it's not incoherent
So far they have made them suck at both.

Asura.Geriond said: »
job concept being coherent and a job concept being GOOD
they have never said they wanted one to be strong and one to be weak. So i still say incoherent. The only thing they have said is find a way to have the job next to the mob. The concept is even further muddied by mainstay abilities like charm/tame/guage being worthless.

Their last communication on what they want bst to do is "find a way to fight alongside your pet" . I find that a bit confusing, what do you mean alongside? directly to the left or right? Or do they just mean engaged? And since the previous 14 years were designed to have bst far away from pet, it makes it even more confusing.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-02-05 18:41:00
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Fighting alongside your pet is pretty darned straightforward; they want you and your pet to both be engaged, nothing more complicated than that. The fact that said playstyle isn't actually as good as it should be doesn't mean it's incoherent, nor do all the useless abilities they have essentially abandoned. The 14 years previous are in the past, and clearly no longer what SE wants the job to be.
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By Bismarck.Rwolf 2020-02-05 19:05:18
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It's incoherent because no other job is directly penalized for operating outside of SE's vision of the job. It's unnecessarily spiteful. They don't want NIN to be a tank. Should they make it so they should lose access to all JA/WS if they attempt to? No they gave NIN enmity abilities, spells and katanas.

Let's just check the job manifesto. Who else isn't doing what they are supposed to do? They need to be restricted too. /sarcasm

Jokes aside we all know SE doesn't care enough about the job to learn what it actually does and is capable of. They listen to us to learn what it does. It's why they use language like "find a way to make it work". That doesn't sound like vision.

When we defend the stance of distance because SE says so, it's a paradox. They only changed the distance because the vocal minority told them to. Same reason they removed TH3 from THF pets. Players complained about BSTs AoE Dynamis farming.

They changed WHM because a vocal minority complained about misery/esuna/sacrifice never being used until they got told no... we actually use that.

They operate on punishing players to make players who are irritated satiated and it sucks.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-05 19:08:47
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Fighting alongside your pet is pretty darned straightforward
No, not what they are saying recently. They are saying "find a way"

They arnt saying the job description is "fighting alongside the pet" they are saying "Find a way to fight alongside your pet". They dont even know what/how they want bst to do. It gets confusing because they dont have the gear to "find a way". Unless you think the job concept is "find a way".

"Furthermore, we'd like to see beastmasters shed their reputation as lone wolves by endowing their pets with more abilities that provide assistance to party members." Ironic that they said that since they didnce give them any abilities to assist the party. Pet buffs affecting the party would be good. but honestly smn would still do a much better job than bst would. Incoherent because the jobs role isn't defined.

Also fighting alongside a pet isnt a complete job concept. More of an aspect to the job.
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By clearlyamule 2020-02-05 19:17:38
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Fighting alongside your pet is pretty darned straightforward; they want you and your pet to both be engaged, nothing more complicated than that.
It's incoherent because what they are actually doing and what they are saying are at complete odds with each other. They've actually made what they claim to want harder while making what they claim not want mostly more inconvenient. What would be coherent would be to idk have a damage bonus based on how close you were... to the mob not your pet.
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By Ozaii 2020-02-05 19:57:40
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Honestly. If they gave bst empathy it allows for a bit more potential for the job becoming a frontliner. Although that is dragoons thing. It still would be neat if when im punching things my pets can at least share my buffs. But im sure that also has its fair share of downsides.
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By Odin.Senaki 2020-02-06 01:51:15
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Ozaii said: »
Honestly. If they gave bst empathy it allows for a bit more potential for the job becoming a frontliner. Although that is dragoons thing. It still would be neat if when im punching things my pets can at least share my buffs. But im sure that also has its fair share of downsides.

While I want Bst to get an upgrade, leave Empathy for poor Dragoons. They only just stopped being a 'lol' job.
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By Spaitin 2020-02-06 01:52:50
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Bst is much more of a lol job than drg used to be.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2020-02-06 05:53:56
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Empathy would do alot more for bst than for drg
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By Nariont 2020-02-06 05:59:16
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Drg hasnt been a loljob for a long time.
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