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GMOs: "Allergic to Science: proteins and allergens
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2013-06-20 11:40:26
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Benefits to soil and quality of food:
http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/17/4/422.full
Benefits to biodiversity and local ecosystems:
http://171.66.127.192/content/1/4/431.full
Benefits to nutritional value and content of food:
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/20359265
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0052988
These were some of the reasonably easy ones to fine. Quality is probably lacking since I no longer have a college through which I can get free access to higher level papers. Many of the links to the ones I wanted required payment and I'm too broke to spend several hundred dollars on a few papers ^^;
I think some of what I got is decent though. I'm not expert on judging studies processes and guidelines though, I can only assume on some things.
I will say though that it's rather easy to find documentation on either side but on average I was able to find more on the benefits rather than articles stating null value differences and exceptionally few claiming organics were actually worse than their conventional counterparts. I'll also add that some studies are rather difficult to do since there are still some unknowns in the mix.
Minimally, the benefits are:
Marginally better nutrition.
Better taste.
Less toxins.
Increased sustainability and improved land quality.
Positive effect on regional bio-diversity.
This isn't to say that conventional methods can't obtain similar results or GMO's can't make amazing superfoods that contain everything we lack but I don't think those goals are the first priority for these types.
Those papers mostly state that using organic soil increases the nutrient content and yield of things grown on it. GMOs could be grown on organic soil just the same as any other crop. As far as the monoculture concern goes, that is already an issue as even without GMOs a lot of crops are a monoculture (thank goodness for seed repositories).
Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-20 12:04:30
Quote: You do probably recognize this, but these two statements, as they stand, are fundamentally at odds. Supply and distribution are intrinsically linked. Essentially there is a shortage of supply at local levels, because the distribution channels are inadequate.
In the context of this debate, the supply of food and the distribution of food are two separate issues. You can mass produce cheap calorie loaded protein biscuits in the USA where the facilities are present to do so, you can even ship that mass produced food to Africa. The problem you run into is distributing it to all those who need it.
Quote: And while I'm not recommending it as a course of action, cutting the amount of necessary consumption could help alleviate some of the distribution problem. You could also look at it in terms of local supply is too low.
And how exactly are you going to enforce population controls in India, Sudan, West China, Ethiopia, or any of the other 3rd world nations that have food shortages. On top of that, limiting population growth does absolutely NOTHING for hunger, population policies are for 20+ years down the road not for feeding someone today. The only solution is a mass reduction in population, aka genocide. Only that will reduce the number of people who need food now. Population controls have been implemented in China and guess what, it didn't work out quite like they wanted. They were killing girl babies due to males being more valuable as future income sources. This has resulted in a mass shortage of females in China, it's become a huge national issue over there. Japan is experiencing a similar problem, the cost of raising children is so high that many of them elected to not have children. This has resulted in a population imbalance, there are too many old people and not enough young people to work and produce goods & services.
Population control is not nor ever will be a solution. The only nations experiencing high population growth of undeveloped third world nations that need the cheap labor to become developed nations.
Quote: Or that necessary supply of nutrient rich food is too low. However, it is a distribution problem in the sense that if you take the aggregate production in the world, and the aggregate population, there is/can be enough production to meet basic caloric needs.
That's not to say that we could produce the same levels of nutrient rich food for the entire world. There certainly isn't at this time enough supply of say meat, to adequately service every individual in this world.
We can easily produce the required food, it won't be the tastiest and the texture sucks but it will provide all required nutrition. It's actually cheaper and easier to do synthetic food then to try to grow and transport fresh produce.
I swear, every day I become and more disappointed at the high levels of stupidity and ignorance displayed by the netizens of the world. Everything in your brains is just rewashed political trash that you gladly devour like a fat kid at KFC. It's like causality and objective critical thinking are foreign concepts.
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Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-06-20 12:18:17
I'd argue that successful GMOs take the monoculture concern to a new level.
Consider these questions:
1) How many continents do you think Monsanto seeds are grown on? (I'm betting all except Antarctica.)
2) What percentage of the current global corn crop is their round-up ready corn?
3) What percentage of the current global soybean crop is their round-up ready soybeans?
4) What percentage of the current global cotton crop is their round-up ready cotton?
5) What percentage of the current global canola crop is their round-up ready canola?
6) What percentage of total consumed global calories/clothing/etc. are represented directly or indirectly by these plants?
I'd answer these questions for you, but I can't find any reasonable sources. The sources that I do find estimate something between 80-90% of US crops are Monsanto seeds, and a staggering amount of the developed world's food comes from these sources.
Now, how do these plants work? - http://www.pnas.org/content/103/35/13010.full
Roundup resistant plants have a different ESPS synthase that is unaffected by glyphosate (Roundup). Strengths are not conferred without weaknesses, though. If there was no downside to this particular ESPS synthase, it would have been the prevalent form and every plant would have it instead of almost-none having it. Therefore there is some cost to it. Perhaps it's more temperature sensitive. Maybe it causes the plant to metabolize nitrogen inefficiently. There's some weakness it confers that caused nature to select against it so strongly that almost no plants have it.
We have now given this fairly unique weakness that we likely don't understand to a class of plants that we heavily rely on globally. You want to see the an international meltdown? Wait until the earth warms two degrees, Monsanto corn/soybeans/cotton/canola can't take the heat, and we have a global food shortage.
Bananas were a breakfast food. The meat that you eat was fed corn. The processed food you eat is reconstituted corn and soybeans. The clothes you wear are cotton. This is on a whole different level from bananas.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-20 12:31:15
GMO's are heavily regulated in the EU. From what I've read Japan is looking to tighten regulations. Especially since the "zombie" wheat incident in May.
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Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-06-20 12:37:36
Roundup resistant plants have a different ESPS synthase that is unaffected by glyphosate (Roundup). Strengths are not conferred without weaknesses, though. If there was no downside to this particular ESPS synthase, it would have been the prevalent form and every plant would have it instead of almost-none having it.
Isn't it possible that the plant was selected against because of a different trait unrelated to this form of ESPS synthase? (not that its safe to assume that or anything)
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-06-20 12:42:54
It could be. It's certain that the ESPS synthase wouldn't have been selected for due to its Roundup resistance, given that Roundup isn't a naturally occurring pathogen really.
Still, there are constant mutations all across the globe and the same mutations can occur in multiple, unrelated populations. This is a pretty ubiquitous plant enzyme, so your sample size in terms of generations is huge. It is not prevalent, so whatever benefit it gives is weak compared to whatever its cost is.
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2013-06-20 12:43:39
Monoculture was already a problem well before GM's were first used commercially in 1996. Whether you breed your stock from seed or use targeted insertion to put the trait you want in there, farmers will favor the seed that produces the most yield and best product. I am not a fan of Monsanto but that does not mean that all genetic modification should be labeled as bad.
Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-20 12:44:06
Quote: You do probably recognize this, but these two statements, as they stand, are fundamentally at odds. Supply and distribution are intrinsically linked. Essentially there is a shortage of supply at local levels, because the distribution channels are inadequate.
In the context of this debate, the supply of food and the distribution of food are two separate issues. You can mass produce cheap calorie loaded protein biscuits in the USA where the facilities are present to do so, you can even ship that mass produced food to Africa. The problem you run into is distributing it to all those who need it.
Quote: And while I'm not recommending it as a course of action, cutting the amount of necessary consumption could help alleviate some of the distribution problem. You could also look at it in terms of local supply is too low.
And how exactly are you going to enforce population controls in India, Sudan, West China, Ethiopia, or any of the other 3rd world nations that have food shortages. On top of that, limiting population growth does absolutely NOTHING for hunger, population policies are for 20+ years down the road not for feeding someone today. The only solution is a mass reduction in population, aka genocide. Only that will reduce the number of people who need food now. Population controls have been implemented in China and guess what, it didn't work out quite like they wanted. They were killing girl babies due to males being more valuable as future income sources. This has resulted in a mass shortage of females in China, it's become a huge national issue over there. Japan is experiencing a similar problem, the cost of raising children is so high that many of them elected to not have children. This has resulted in a population imbalance, there are too many old people and not enough young people to work and produce goods & services.
Population control is not nor ever will be a solution. The only nations experiencing high population growth of undeveloped third world nations that need the cheap labor to become developed nations.
Quote: Or that necessary supply of nutrient rich food is too low. However, it is a distribution problem in the sense that if you take the aggregate production in the world, and the aggregate population, there is/can be enough production to meet basic caloric needs.
That's not to say that we could produce the same levels of nutrient rich food for the entire world. There certainly isn't at this time enough supply of say meat, to adequately service every individual in this world.
We can easily produce the required food, it won't be the tastiest and the texture sucks but it will provide all required nutrition. It's actually cheaper and easier to do synthetic food then to try to grow and transport fresh produce.
I swear, every day I become and more disappointed at the high levels of stupidity and ignorance displayed by the netizens of the world. Everything in your brains is just rewashed political trash that you gladly devour like a fat kid at KFC. It's like causality and objective critical thinking are foreign concepts. Take a basic economics course. Then come back to me. Also learn about basic agriculture.
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-20 12:45:27
GMO's are heavily regulated in the EU. From what I've read Japan is looking to tighten regulations. Especially since the "zombie" wheat incident in May. That's not even scary.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-20 12:51:51
I was responding to Byrth's continent question. I should have made that more clear.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-06-20 12:52:06
Monoculture was already a problem well before GM's were first used commercially in 1996. Whether you breed your stock from seed or use targeted insertion to put the trait you want in there, farmers will favor the seed that produces the most yield and best product. I am not a fan of Monsanto but that does not mean that all genetic modification should be labeled as bad.
Roundup ready crops encourage particularly lazy farming practices. Even if we had sufficient stockpiles to absorb a global food shortage and saved conventionally grown crops for replanting the next year (and got sufficient seed from them), production wouldn't jump back up to the previous levels due to:
1) Roundup ready crops increase yield by making weed care easy and absolute. You're not going to get as much yield from the same acreage if you're using conventional seed again.
2) The farmers wouldn't have dealt with weeds the old-fashioned way in years (depending how long until this happens, perhaps a generation). They won't know wtf to do with conventional seed and the yield will be even lower than present conventional highs.
So maximum yield with roundup ready crops exceeds maximum yield with conventional. If we have to use conventional, yield drops. Additionally, because we're not used to conventional seed care anymore, yield would be at least temporarily suppressed for several years. This is not a recipe for success.
I just think this is a dumb and dangerous way to approach an essential crop. If something happened to the Monsanto crops, it would be much more like the potato-famine than banana-inconvenience.
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2013-06-20 12:58:46
Monoculture without roundup ready crops is even worse because of the number and amount of pesticides you will have to treat with. Monoculture is a problem, roundup ready crops complicates it but does not cause it. With that being said if we went back to heterogeneity we would have a lower yield and lower quality product. There is no winning here.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2013-06-20 13:06:19
Funnily enough, someone mentioned bananas earlier. There is currently some concern regarding monoculture for bananas (and to some degree coffee).
Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-06-20 13:48:21
Those papers mostly state that using organic soil increases the nutrient content and yield of things grown on it. GMOs could be grown on organic soil just the same as any other crop. As far as the monoculture concern goes, that is already an issue as even without GMOs a lot of crops are a monoculture (thank goodness for seed repositories).
There's a bit more to it than just that but effectively following proper guidelines you could, as I said, get similar results with conventional or gmo crops as well but the focus is not on that. In fact the focus is in the opposite direction. The impact on the environment is likely to be fairly high when you spray a chemical that kills all plant life that lacks the roundup ready gene.
But I was asked for sources on why there's a benefit to organic and this is what was found.
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2013-06-20 14:16:09
Round-up resistance was bound to happen due to it's excessive usage and the intense selection that places on weeds.
I should have been more clear. I didn't mean Round Up resistance evolved in weeds, I meant Monsanto's Round Up Ready gene has been found in them.
But yeah, organic is just not practical if we want to, you know, feed people.
Mostly it is actually.
For instance here in eastern WA we get 16" - 20" of rain annually. We have had wheat that needed 16" - 18"* for decades. With that kind of spread you literally can't have weeds competing for water. For that matter you can barely afford to plow. Plowing is effectively -2" of rainfall due to evaporation of soil moisture.
But there is barley that grows on 12" - 14". Problem is neither the Chinese nor the Italians buy barley. They do buy our wheat.
*A strain was recently developed, by good old fashioned selective breeding, the kind of genetic manipulation we have done for millennia, that needs only 14" - 16" .
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-20 14:16:34
Quote: You do probably recognize this, but these two statements, as they stand, are fundamentally at odds. Supply and distribution are intrinsically linked. Essentially there is a shortage of supply at local levels, because the distribution channels are inadequate.
In the context of this debate, the supply of food and the distribution of food are two separate issues. You can mass produce cheap calorie loaded protein biscuits in the USA where the facilities are present to do so, you can even ship that mass produced food to Africa. The problem you run into is distributing it to all those who need it.
Quote: And while I'm not recommending it as a course of action, cutting the amount of necessary consumption could help alleviate some of the distribution problem. You could also look at it in terms of local supply is too low.
And how exactly are you going to enforce population controls in India, Sudan, West China, Ethiopia, or any of the other 3rd world nations that have food shortages. On top of that, limiting population growth does absolutely NOTHING for hunger, population policies are for 20+ years down the road not for feeding someone today. The only solution is a mass reduction in population, aka genocide. Only that will reduce the number of people who need food now. Population controls have been implemented in China and guess what, it didn't work out quite like they wanted. They were killing girl babies due to males being more valuable as future income sources. This has resulted in a mass shortage of females in China, it's become a huge national issue over there. Japan is experiencing a similar problem, the cost of raising children is so high that many of them elected to not have children. This has resulted in a population imbalance, there are too many old people and not enough young people to work and produce goods & services.
Population control is not nor ever will be a solution. The only nations experiencing high population growth of undeveloped third world nations that need the cheap labor to become developed nations.
Quote: Or that necessary supply of nutrient rich food is too low. However, it is a distribution problem in the sense that if you take the aggregate production in the world, and the aggregate population, there is/can be enough production to meet basic caloric needs.
That's not to say that we could produce the same levels of nutrient rich food for the entire world. There certainly isn't at this time enough supply of say meat, to adequately service every individual in this world.
We can easily produce the required food, it won't be the tastiest and the texture sucks but it will provide all required nutrition. It's actually cheaper and easier to do synthetic food then to try to grow and transport fresh produce.
I swear, every day I become and more disappointed at the high levels of stupidity and ignorance displayed by the netizens of the world. Everything in your brains is just rewashed political trash that you gladly devour like a fat kid at KFC. It's like causality and objective critical thinking are foreign concepts. Take a basic economics course. Then come back to me. Also learn about basic agriculture.
/comfort
If the other thread is any indication, he needs to brush up on history, ancient to recent, also. :/ EAK!!! Talk about having your head in the sand!
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2013-06-20 14:24:33
*A strain was recently developed, by good old fashioned selective breeding, the kind of genetic manipulation we have done for millennia, that needs only 14" - 16" .
I do not understand the fear associated with making a targeted insertion to put a gene in a crop that makes it require less water vs. getting that same gene into the crop by luck. I do understand why some people do not like what things are currently being modified.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-06-20 14:27:57
Monoculture without roundup ready crops is even worse because of the number and amount of pesticides you will have to treat with.
This does not make sense.
Monoculture is a problem, roundup ready crops complicates it but does not cause it. With that being said if we went back to heterogeneity we would have a lower yield and lower quality product. There is no winning here.
Take on a fairly minor fiscal burden in the present by making financial incentives for people to grow non-GMO crops (subsidies). You preserve that method of farming and increase foodcrop biodiversity. Maintain a large enough food/grain reserve to get us through the complete loss of a growing season.
When the bad year hits, farmers that were growing GMO crops will lose their investment (minus farm insurance) and those that weren't growing GMO crops will make a killing. Conventional farmers will buy out Roundup ready farmers, and the next year your food deficit will not be as bad as it could have been.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-20 14:36:34
Round-up resistance was bound to happen due to it's excessive usage and the intense selection that places on weeds.
I should have been more clear. I didn't mean Round Up resistance evolved in weeds, I meant Monsanto's Round Up Ready gene has been found in them. Has Monsanto sued nature for this yet?
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2013-06-20 14:49:38
You can think of pesticides and herbicides as another form of genetic selection. In this case you are selecting for things which are resistant to what you treat with. Monoculture without the roundup ready gene means you have to get more creative in what you are treating with and you have to add nastier chemicals into the mix. For instance my husband's thesis was on the best combination of 8 fungicides necessary in the year 2010 to promote blueberry survival. The combination and dosage you need constantly changes as you kill off the susceptible population and increase the resistance of the surviving population of unwanteds. The thing about roundup is that it kills everything that does not have a resistance gene to it. Plants are not very successful at developing spontaneous resistance to roundup (cross fertilization from cultivar to wild variant is a whole other kettle of fish and is a problem). Without a viable alternative simply labeling roundup ready crops as bad is not a solution. From an environmental standpoint most of what big ag does is bad.
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2013-06-20 14:59:08
This is all I can think about when I read this thread:
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Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-06-20 14:59:51
I'd argue that successful GMOs take the monoculture concern to a new level.
Consider these questions:
1) How many continents do you think Monsanto seeds are grown on? (I'm betting all except Antarctica.)
2) What percentage of the current global corn crop is their round-up ready corn?
3) What percentage of the current global soybean crop is their round-up ready soybeans?
4) What percentage of the current global cotton crop is their round-up ready cotton?
5) What percentage of the current global canola crop is their round-up ready canola?
6) What percentage of total consumed global calories/clothing/etc. are represented directly or indirectly by these plants?
I'd answer these questions for you, but I can't find any reasonable sources. The sources that I do find estimate something between 80-90% of US crops are Monsanto seeds, and a staggering amount of the developed world's food comes from these sources.
Now, how do these plants work? - http://www.pnas.org/content/103/35/13010.full
Roundup resistant plants have a different ESPS synthase that is unaffected by glyphosate (Roundup). Strengths are not conferred without weaknesses, though. If there was no downside to this particular ESPS synthase, it would have been the prevalent form and every plant would have it instead of almost-none having it. Therefore there is some cost to it. Perhaps it's more temperature sensitive. Maybe it causes the plant to metabolize nitrogen inefficiently. There's some weakness it confers that caused nature to select against it so strongly that almost no plants have it.
We have now given this fairly unique weakness that we likely don't understand to a class of plants that we heavily rely on globally. You want to see the an international meltdown? Wait until the earth warms two degrees, Monsanto corn/soybeans/cotton/canola can't take the heat, and we have a global food shortage.
Bananas were a breakfast food. The meat that you eat was fed corn. The processed food you eat is reconstituted corn and soybeans. The clothes you wear are cotton. This is on a whole different level from bananas.
This sounds good on paper, but it's not biologically sound. There historically was no reason to evolve glyphosate-resistant ESPS Synthase for plants because glyphosate is not found sitting around in nature. Evolution is also driven by probability, e.g., a mutant gene with altered ESPS synthase has to pop up in order for it to be represented in the gene pool.
There may not actually be any significant biological cost, but it could be a difficult trait to evolve (intermediate states are deleterious, for example).
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-06-20 15:13:44
If they are different, then there is a biological cost.
Quote: The CP4 enzyme has unexpected kinetic and structural properties that render it unique among the known EPSP synthases.
Quote: Kinetically, the most intriguing feature of CP4 EPSP synthase is the strong dependence of the catalytic efficiency on monovalent cations, namely K+, Rb+, and NH4 + (Fig. 1 B). Whereas the K m for S3P (WT) appears to be independent of cations, the K m for PEP decreases from 3.5 mM to 0.2 mM in the presence of 100 mM KCl, resulting in an increase of k cat/K m by a factor of 58, from 1.9 × 103 M−1·s−1 to 1.1 × 105 M−1·s−1 (see the supporting information, which is published on the PNAS web site). The apparent dissociation constant for the interaction of K+ ions with the enzyme is ≈25 mM (Fig. 1 B). It has been reported that potassium concentrations in planta are in fact sufficient to promote the enzyme’s interaction with PEP (13). In the absence of such cations, the low catalytic efficiency of CP4 EPSP synthase would render such engineered plants unsuitable. CP4 EPSP synthase maintains activity over a broad pH range and for prolonged periods at elevated temperatures (supporting information), illustrating the enzyme’s stability under harsh environmental conditions.
Underlining mine. It's different and has a specific weakness.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-06-20 15:28:45
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Lack of bovine growth chemicals in milks?
I'd just like to go back to this and say that thanks to NON-organic milk, and BGH, the national breast size has gone up almost a full cup. You can make titty corn, and titty wheat. Titty up that gluten ***those pintrest zombies are crying about this week too.
P.S. You can tell me this GMO ***is what's gonna cause the zombie apocalypse and I wouldn't give two shits as long as my quality of life goes up for the foreseeable future. They said not to feed kids peanuts and then to feed them peanuts and then back again for 30 years. Now we have 10/30 kids violently allergic to something before 1st grade (and when i was a kid there wasnt one in the whole school). They don't know what they're doing with stuff that's everyday now so why pretend we're gonna regulate stuff that's not "ok" yet. Just let it *** happen and if a few people die it'll decrease the surplus population that's supposed to eat us out of seafood by 2100. /sarcasm
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-20 15:36:19
The Round-up Ready gene isn't naturally-occuring to plants (it's from an Agrobacterium strain) so that comparison seems a bit strange. It's like saying that plants didn't evolve to have human legs because it came with too high a cost. The absence of a trait doesn't necessarily imply a selective force against it.
Of course, that doesn't mean that the new synthase couldn't have a cost associated with it when it is produced by these crops.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2013-06-20 16:08:17
You can make titty corn, and titty wheat. Titty up that gluten ***those pintrest zombies are crying about this week too. I find your ideas intriguing, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2013-06-20 16:18:35
If the other thread is any indication, he needs to brush up on history, ancient to recent, also. :/ EAK!!! Talk about having your head in the sand!
Sadly there are 1000 people who have no clue wtf they are on about for every 1 person that has a grasp of important issues such as GMO's, Megacorporations, the absolute rape of the world's oceans, or the world's climate. Honestly I strangely have more respect for his type since he at least puts forth some effort to listen to his "news sources" versus people who can't even be bothered to form an opinion. Granted he is laughably incorrect with his regurgitated talking points from FOX news, but he is making an effort for what it's worth.
The really scary ones imo are people who are so absorbed with their tiny insignificant lives that all they can focus on aside from what ever they do for a living is posting pictures of what they are having for lunch on Facebook. Or what moronic idea just popped into their peebrain that they can't wait to share with everyone on Twitter. When your existence is dominated by those sorts of concerns, and the rest of it is caught up in hero worshiping celebrities/reality television who can find time for boring scientific discussions?
Really I try not to dwell on it it's just depressing. I just go about my daily routine, and do things that make me happy. I try to stay informed as much as possible, and make smart choices. It's really all you can do vs the tidal wave of idiocy.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2013-06-20 18:33:40
I should have been more clear. I didn't mean Round Up resistance evolved in weeds, I meant Monsanto's Round Up Ready gene has been found in them. Has Monsanto sued nature for this yet?
I think its at the appellate level currently.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-06-20 18:37:03
Biological cost isn't always meaningful. For example, virtually all strains of bedbugs found in the field have developed pyrethroid resistance (pyrethroids are a type of synthetic insecticide derived from pyrethrins, an insecticide found in chrysanthemums - yes when your grandfather told you putting mums in the garden fended off pests he was right sort of!). Pyrethroids/pyrethrins are a nerve toxin, and resistance to these compounds can be conferred in two ways:
1.) Alterations to the expression and/or function of the Cytochrome P450 enzyme complex. This enzyme complex is basically the "liver" of insects, and it serves the purpose of detoxification. (we have these enzymes too actually!)
2.) Mutations to nerve cells so that pyrethroids no longer have a detrimental effect.
In the case of modern bedbug strains, 2.) is what has occured, but this is a slow process.
It's easy to test which of these mutation types has occured by combining the insecticide with a cytochrome inhibitor such as piperonyl butoxide (I did this all the time in the lab I used to work in). Often PBO is combined with pyrethroids to make a "better bomb" but this does have the unfortunate side effect of accelerating the rate at which insects figure out 2.)
Bedbugs with nerve mutations are less active and slower in general than non-resistant nerve strains while there is no discernible difference betwen CP450-enhanced strains, although there is presumably a cost. In Russia, during mosquito sprays, strains of mosquito are known to arise that have many many duplications of the CP450 gene and thus express the enzyme at much higher levels. This is apparently energetically costly, because these strains become very uncommon when the pressure of spraying is removed. My guess is that super-cytochrome mosquitos are lethargic or require more resources to reproduce and are thus less efficient.
For an insect like the bedbug, though, resistance doesn't get selected out even in the absence of spraying. The nerve mutation slows them down but it's not particularly meaningful to their niche.
Natural selection often produces "really bad" immediate solutions because of the need for speed. Expressing CP450 at 100x normal levels may be bad for mosquitoes, but it gets the job done and keeps the species going until the selective pressure goes away or until a more efficient solution arises. In the case of insects, two things have happened historically. Duplication of detox enzymes is usually the first type of resistancd that pops up, which is costly but eventually either strains pop up that are more efficient and can produce massive amounts of CP450 at a lower cost, or mutations to the active site of the pesticide arise and it no longer works. Both can arise and hybridize and we get super-resistant pests (a large portion of german cockroach strains in low-cost housing units have evolved this way because of the really poor strategies pest control operators use to control pests in these situations to make it profitable).
Plants have really really really awful biochemistry and even worse genetics (from a "ease of discussion" standpoint) and the result is that in some situations they evolve really quickly and in others they are extremely unresponsive to evolutionary demands.
In the case of the Roundup Ready plants, the enzyme seems to require potassium cations that are "usually sufficient" in plants for the enzyme to function. Monsanto doesn't play games though, their normal Roundup formulation is an isopropylamine salt. Their "Roundup for tough conditions" formulation? It's Glyphosate Potassium. When the Mushroom Bomb goes off and the Lich sucks all the Potassium out of the soil, Monsanto is one step ahead.
tldr The probability of an event that will selectively harm roundup ready transgenics and conspecific "wild-type" plants is extremely low, but in the situation you described where
1.) GMO farmers are selectively targeted
2.) Non-GMO farmers are successful and overtake GMO farmers
We're worse off, because Non-GMO farmers have to use more and generally, more harmful, chemicals to meet demand. "Fully organic farming" (especially if polycultured) is really only good for subsistence and feeding upper middle class white people and urban homosexual men.
I know you're just talking about incentivizing to preserve non-GMO farming but there's not really any reason to do that because there's already an incentive because there's a market for it in scared upper middle class westerners.
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Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 18:44:59
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Lack of bovine growth chemicals in milks?
I'd just like to go back to this and say that thanks to NON-organic milk, and BGH, the national breast size has gone up almost a full cup. You can make titty corn, and titty wheat. Titty up that gluten ***those pintrest zombies are crying about this week too.
P.S. You can tell me this GMO ***is what's gonna cause the zombie apocalypse and I wouldn't give two shits as long as my quality of life goes up for the foreseeable future. They said not to feed kids peanuts and then to feed them peanuts and then back again for 30 years. Now we have 10/30 kids violently allergic to something before 1st grade (and when i was a kid there wasnt one in the whole school). They don't know what they're doing with stuff that's everyday now so why pretend we're gonna regulate stuff that's not "ok" yet. Just let it *** happen and if a few people die it'll decrease the surplus population that's supposed to eat us out of seafood by 2100. /sarcasm
Don't worry, diabetes and obesity will take care of the problems. >_>
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Figured I'd share. Interesting read. (bleh, the closing quotation in the title got cut off.)
Quote: A few weeks ago, the Union of Concerned Scientists released a policy paper entitled “The Healthy Farm: A Vision for U.S. Agriculture,” which is exactly what it sounds like.
A healthy farm practices sustainable agriculture, which means it must do three things well:
Productivity. A healthy farm produces food in abundance.
Economic viability. A healthy farm is a thriving business that provides a good living and fair working conditions to those who work on it, and contributes to a robust local and regional economy.
Environmental stewardship. A healthy farm maintains the fertility of the soil and the health of the surrounding landscape for future generations.
Current industrial farming practices in the US accomplish the first and second goals quite well, but these practices tend to be unsustainable and fail the “Environmental Stewardship” plank pretty miserably. The UCS’s concern about the dire state of our food system is well-founded, and I applaud their efforts to get out in front of the policy debate. There’s just one problem: they oppose using all of our technology to help combat this problem. Specifically, I’m talking about genetic engineering (GE) and genetically modified organisms (GMO).
Conversations of this sort inevitably devolve into ad hominem attacks on the GMO supporter’s credibility, so before going further, let me state clearly and for the record that I do not now, nor have I ever, nor do I ever plan to work for any company that produces GMOs. Neither have I ever received any form of compensation from any such company.
Nevertheless, I think that using genetic engineering to improve our crops can help move us towards more productive, healthier, and yes, more sustainable farming practices. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of misinformation standing in the way of public acceptance of this technology. Since I’m an immunologist, today I’m just going to address a single piece of that misinformation. From UCS:
[GE crops] may produce new allergens and toxins[...]
This statement is at best wildly misleading and at worse an all-out fabrication. For an organization dedicated to informing citizens about science, I’m a bit appalled that they got this one so wrong. But in order to explain why, I first need to explain a bit about genes, proteins and how these things interact with the immune system.
From Genes to Proteins
If you’re already well acquainted with the Central Dogma of molecular biology, feel free to skip ahead. For the rest of you, your memories of genetics may be a foggy recollection of a monk and his peas. But don’t worry, I’m not going to ask you to draw any punnett squares. The key thing to know is that your genetic information, encoded in your DNA, is a blueprint for the production of proteins*.
Proteins are the things that do work in the cell. They can do everything from providing structure and support, to communicating information between cells, to sensing the outside world, to catalyzing chemical reactions. Basically, if there’s a job to be done in a cell, it’s a protein that’s doing it. Proteins are fundamentally a linear sequence of small units called “amino acids.” In the same way that you can take a finite set of lego blocks and build almost any shape, evolution has selected for a finite set of about 20 amino acids, but these 20 blocks can be fit together in many different ways to make many different shapes of protein. Those different shapes determine the multitude of different functions that proteins have in a cell.
Because of the molecular biology revolution, we now have a pretty firm understanding of how a cell reads a particular sequence of nucleic acid (that’s the “NA” in DNA), and translates the code into a sequence of amino acids that becomes a protein of a certain shape and function. And one of the most amazing features of this process is that the language is the same regardless of the sort of cell you’re talking about, be it plant, bacteria, virus or mammal**. This is all very neat in theory, but it has profound consequences in practice.
For example, the insulin that diabetics need to stay alive is just a protein. Before genetic engineering, the vast majority of insulin was isolated from the blood of cows or pigs – these sources were not particularly reliable, and insulin from animals is not exactly the same as human insulin, leading to potential adverse reactions. In the 1980′s, scientists realized that they could use genetic engineering to make actual human insulin in bacteria. They isolated the DNA sequence code for the human version of the protein and inserted it into the genome of E. coli bacteria. The bacteria don’t know the difference between a human gene and a bacterial gene – it’s all just DNA! The bacteria read the code, and turned it into protein – the exact same protein that your own β-islet cells make in your own pancreas; it’s identical.
This is the same process used in genetic engineering of crops – moving a gene code for a protein or group of proteins from one organism into another. More on that later.
Proteins and Allergies
An allergy is essentially an immune response to something that’s not normally dangerous. Those pollen grains that are the source of so much misery don’t actually pose a threat, but your immune system may react as if it is. Your immune system makes particular antibodies called IgE that are able to bind some protein from the pollen. Those IgE antibodies coat the surface of mast cells, which are filled with a bunch of reactive molecules like histamines that make your immune system freak out. Mast cells evolved to combat parasitic worms and other infections, and when the immune response is directed appropriately, it’s a good defense – a little bit of inflammation is better than an infection.
When it’s directed against something abundant and harmless though, that’s when suffering ensues. Immune responses to all sorts of things have been reported, from the relatively common seasonal allergies to different types of pollen, to dust mites, to semen. Though these allergies can be quite unpleasant for the afflicted, but are usually not life threatening. Allergies to food, on the other hand, can be significantly more severe.
Because food allergies can lead to anaphylaxis and death, it’s perhaps understandable that people are worried about manipulation of food. But remember – allergies are a response to a particular protein. Our immune systems can distinguish between different proteins quite well, but is completely unaware of the source of that protein.
Case Studies on GMOs and Allergies
The Premise
Before getting started, let’s go back to the statement from UCS that I find so objectionable:
[GE crops] may produce new allergens and toxins [emphasis mine]
This is patently false – genetic engineering techniques allow us to precisely add genes of known structure and function to crops. It would in principle be possible to engineer corn that expresses anthrax toxin, or introduce peanut allergens into soybeans, but this would have to be by malicious intent of the scientists, not some accident. We know how genes work, and we know what kind of protein an individual gene will make.
Contrast this with a common tool of breeding in organic and non-GMO farming: Mutation Breeding. This is a technique whereby farmers expose seeds to large doses of radiation or chemical mutagens, and then selectively breed the seeds that have useful traits. This process may introduce hundreds or thousands of mutations into the genomes, and breeders cannot know where those mutations are. These mutations will change the shape and functions of proteins, and could, in principle produce new allergens. Despite the fact that this process is manipulating the genome, it’s not considered genetic engineering, and is allowed to be called organic.
Now, some examples of the most common types of GE crops.
Bt Corn
Different strains of the bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) can produce proteins that are toxic to various invertebrates. These proteins, called “Cry toxins,” have been used in agriculture for almost 100 years – bacteria cultured in a certain way can be induced to create these proteins, and then sprayed onto crops. Certain types of insects are susceptible to eating these toxins and will die upon ingesting them. Bt Cry proteins are among the safest insecticides that can be used in agriculture, and there are many varieties that target different types of insect pests. Since Cry toxins are proteins, that means they are coded for by genes, and scientists realized that they could do away with the bacterium entirely.
In much the same way we can produce human insulin in bacteria, we can get corn (and other plants) to produce bacterial Cry proteins – and scientists did. The protein is produced predominantly in the leaves of the corn, and insects attempting to feed on the leaves ingest the Cry proteins at the same time and die. The protein isn’t expressed much in the corn kernels themselves, which is actually a problem for farmers wanting to use these crops to stave off insects that attack the ear, but it also means that humans enjoying that corn-on-the-cob are not going to be ingesting much either.
So, Cry proteins are safe to consume, they’re expressed in very low levels in the food we eat, and they’re sprayed on organic crops in huge quantities (and have been for almost a hundred years). There’s no reason to assume that Cry produced by corn is any different than Cry made by bacteria – it’s the same gene, so it’s the same protein.
Fishy Tomatoes
One of the horror stories often trotted out by GMO opponents is a tomato plant that was genetically engineered to resist frost. The winter flounder fish has “antifreeze” in its blood to allow it to survive in extremely cold waters. Scientists realized that antifreeze in plants would be incredibly useful – frost damage costs farmers hundreds of millions of dollars every year in lost crops or decreased productivity.
Now, I can understand why antifreeze in your food might sound scary, but this isn’t the stuff you put in your car. The antifreeze in the fish is just a protein called AFA3, and as you’ve probably gathered by now, that means it’s coded for by a gene. Unfortunately, when this gene was put into tomatoes, it didn’t actually provide much frost resistance, and these tomatoes were never brought to market, but I think this is an instructive example – if you could eat flounder without an allergic reaction, you could eat these tomatoes.
Potential for Harm
There are many examples of new GMO varieties that are using genes for proteins that don’t have a 100 year history like Bt, or aren’t usually ingested the way that flounder is. But there’s nothing magical about genetic engineering – it’s just about proteins. Most proteins are readily destroyed in our stomach and small intestine, broken down into their constituent amino acids and absorbed into our bloodstream, regardless of whether that protein comes from a cow or a tomato or a bacterium. Our digestive systems and our immune systems are oblivious to their origin.
It’s impossible to claim that there’s zero risk from using GMO technology in our food, and it’s worth testing the safety of anything new that we put into our mouths. Safety tests are done of course, but it would be impossible to eliminate all risk.
But a possibility of risk alone is not a valid reason to avoid a technology. As I mentioned above, mutation breeding is at least as likely to generate new allergens, if not more so. At least with GE, we know what genes are being changed, and we have better tools for testing the proteins that they code for. We’ve embraced many technologies that have risks, from microwave ovens to cell phones, and there’s more at stake here than quick meals or communication. In order to feed the billions of people on our planet without doing (more) irreparable harm to the environment, we need to be thinking about all of our options.
It’s also worth noting as Pamela Ronald did in this space two years ago:
There is broad scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops currently on the market are safe to eat. After 14 years of cultivation and a cumulative total of 2 billion acres planted, no adverse health or environmental effects have resulted from commercialization of genetically engineered crops.
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* Not all genes code for protein. There are also gene products like microRNAs, but these largely have an effect by regulating the expression of proteins.
** Not exactly the same, it turns out. Some species have slight modifications to the code, but it’s more like having different dialects rather than a different language.
Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/05/30/allergic-to-science-proteins-and-allergens-in-our-genetically-engineered-food/
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