Delve Weapons Only |
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Delve weapons only
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: » You splitting up your group? and 6k once isn't 7k+ average i'm just not convinced of the attitude in here, the measurable difference from an intelligent 85+ emp to a delve weapon dd is pretty irrelevant to your total plasma count would take any intelligent player, even if they're wearning brawny adargas or dies iraes.. delve is basically a free catch up button if people would throw each other a bone
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Carraway Author said: » Fenrir.Camiie said: » I don't have a issue with vertical progression, but expecting someone to have already achieved their goal while chasing their goal isn't vertical progression. It's just stupid. Let's say you're 10/15 NNI, you want to finish the last set, and you're putting a group together from scratch because your previous static fell apart. If you're fine with grabbing people with no NNI gear and little to no experience, that's cool; that's your choice as a group-leader. I imagine it's a lot easier to get the 0/15 people to go than it is the ones who are 15/15. Quote: However, personally, I'm going to look at it as a waste of time if I have to draw from a larger pool of candidates; I'm going to ask for people with appropriate gear to cut down on the choices I have to make (until I get to a point of desperation or exasperation, which isn't the case with plasm-farming). I'm still *** if I pick the wrong people, obviously. I don't really do NNI with people I don't know, so I don't consider it a waste of time helping my friends get geared up. Anyway, you realize the event was designed to be winnable without the very gear it rewards, right? You didn't start out with NNI gear before you did NNI yet you still got your NNI gear. You didn't start Delve with Delve gear yet you now have Delve gear. All the people who are acting as though Delve can't or shouldn't be done without Delve gear are living proof that it can be. The fact that you have it refutes your own argument. Quote: I get that it sucks to be excluded, I really do, but I'm not going to sympathize with people that complain about being excluded without taking advantage of the opportunities that are definitely present. The gear curve has always been a huge factor in FFXI. At 75, people wanted me to have Byakko's Haidate when I started Sky; I didn't have them, so I played BRD instead of WAR. Yeah I did the exact same thing and it ended up with me being miserable. I was BRD 4-life up until Abyssea and the 80 level cap were introduced and I finally said no more. I'm not saying I won't level a support job again, but if you get where I'm coming from then you'll understand my strong reluctance.
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Sylph.Wardeniii said: » Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » Sylph.Tigerwoods said: » Quote: Bad is an exaggeration. It's indeed pretty low on the ladder by now but it's still enough to clear Delve/Fracture, so it's hard to call it bad. Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you obliterated everyone with a 95 amano on a 7500 plasm run, then it could have been a 9-9.5K plasm run with proper weapons. If you were top damage against Delve DD's as you used a 85 Masa, due to you being the only who was hitting it -- you were with horrible players, and improperly buffed. It is not a shocker that there are indeed people out there who are worse than whatever an 85-95 R/E has to offer. Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Also, bolded part, they had Delve or RME 99s. I don't think you can make more "proper" than this, which is the whole point of the discussion. Might want to go back to not opening your mouth on that one. Fenrir.Sylow said: » Also haven't I seen several of you arguing against the delve dd onry mentality in this thread complaining about PUG quality in other threads? Makes sense now! Yes PUG suck in general. Your pulling from the majority population that doesn't live on the forums, doesn't know the games mechanics and doesn't know where to look to even find these things out. FFXI does an absolute horrible job teaching players the basics of the game and us, the knowledgeable part of the player base, does an even worse job of educating everyone else. Delve weapons do not separate random PUG players from knowledgeable high end players. A 99 RME is a better indicator though by no means a remotely sure thing. The 99 weapons at least required some form of long term commitment and applied effort, that person had a greater opportunity to learn something about how to play a DD job effectively (contrary to popular believe there is a lot more to it then smashing a TP and WS macro). Delve weapons merely require you to of attended one of the 2~4 hour rage fights early on and then spammed a bunch of poor Ceizek plasm runs. Carraway Author said: » Fenrir.Camiie said: » Anyway, you realize the event was designed to be winnable without the very gear it rewards, right? You didn't start out with NNI gear before you did NNI yet you still got your NNI gear. You didn't start Delve with Delve gear yet you now have Delve gear. All the people who are acting as though Delve can't or shouldn't be done without Delve gear are living proof that it can be. The fact that you have it refutes your own argument. I'm not arguing that it's not possible to do Delve without Delve gear. I'm presenting the argument that when you get excluded, you should take into account the group leader's perspective and available context, and if you're regularly getting excluded, you have a multitude of options to still get what you want. Or if you routinely get excluded, it might be more of a problem or set of problems, than just your weapon. MMO's are very social in the respect to communicating bad players, and bad people. Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » Sylph.Wardeniii said: » If you obliterated everyone with a 95 amano on a 7500 plasm run, then it could have been a 9-9.5K plasm run with proper weapons. If you were top damage against Delve DD's as you used a 85 Masa, due to you being the only who was hitting it -- you were with horrible players, and improperly buffed. It is not a shocker that there are indeed people out there who are worse than whatever an 85-95 R/E has to offer. Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Also, bolded part, they had Delve or RME 99s. I don't think you can make more "proper" than this, which is the whole point of the discussion. Might want to go back to not opening your mouth on that one. If they had delve weapons or RME 99's, and you were beating them with your holier than thou 95 amano and 85 masa, then they were just poor players. Of course individual skill is going to play a role, but that wasn't the topic -- the topic was comparing weapons, and all other things being equal, the delve weapons are generally going to outperform. P.S. Where does the water come from that you and Pchan drink? It would be a great service to alert the public. There is a big distinction between damage potential and actual damage done. Gear most definitely determines damage potential, the better your gear the higher your ceiling. What gear doesn't do is teach people HOW to be a melee, there are many other things involved. That is where your get such a large gap between what's mathematically possible and what we actually see. You can't just set all capability equal to 100 and reduce the differences between players to gear alone, it's an incredibly misleading way to go about things. It's not that I have been excluded, and I know I don't have a bad reputation on the server, it's just that I don't want exclusion to become the norm with the new content, especially on the low end of it.
If you want to be super-picky when it comes to fighting the <Mega Boss> I can understand that. If you only accept the best of the best while fighting trash mobs, then I think you're being rather unreasonable and unrealistic.
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: » There is a big distinction between damage potential and actual damage done. Gear most definitely determines damage potential, the better your gear the higher your ceiling. What gear doesn't do is teach people HOW to be a melee, there are many other things involved. That is where your get such a large gap between what's mathematically possible and what we actually see. You can't just set all capability equal to 100 and reduce the differences between players to gear alone, it's an incredibly misleading way to go about things. Right, and I was never suggesting that we should assume that "all things are equal aside from weapons" when it comes to picking up people in a shout. You have your friends in game, and particular people you've done PUG events with whom you know are either quality/mediocre/garbage players. But if I have a complete stranger on my hands, I would likely take the delve GS drk who already owns a ragnarok/apoc as well, over the guy who only owns a delve GS -- and I would take either of those over the guy who only owns a ragnarok (although its a good practice to be skeptical of delve-only weapon individuals; its worth finding them and checking their gear ofc.) We're extending beyond the weapons alone, which is relevant and fine, but it just wasn't what the original topic was -- just clarifying that we're all on the same page. The whole "Delve Weapons Only" debate is kinda pointless.
People have shown over and over again that, not only will a 99 Relic/Mythic flatout outdamage a similar Delve weapon on accounts of Aftermath (regardless of what the napkin math says it would do), it's a simple fact that people who have worked towards a 99 Relic/Mythic will generally also have better gear for their job. i.e. Very few relic holders do not have Salvage2/NNI pieces for their jobs, appropriate TP and WS sets and will use the right food for the right situation, opposed to Delve weapon users having a selection of anything from spectacular to pink/perle abyssea gear. Do good Delve weapon users not exist? Ofcourse there are some. There's just an equal amount, if not larger, that will flatout suck. I have both the Sword and the Greatsword from Delve, but even i will gladly give up my DD spot and change to BRD if i see a similar job with a 99 Relic looking for an invite as well. There's just no contest. Mythic with aftermath .. maybe... But you are out of your mind if you think any 99 relic will beat a delve weapon on similarly equiped jobs. The only one I can think of might be gun since you can go balls out and not pull hate.
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Valefor.Surivere said: » The whole "Delve Weapons Only" debate is kinda pointless. People have shown over and over again that, not only will a 99 Relic/Mythic flatout outdamage a similar Delve weapon on accounts of Aftermath (regardless of what the napkin math says it would do), it's a simple fact that people who have worked towards a 99 Relic/Mythic will generally also have better gear for their job. i.e. Very few relic holders do not have Salvage2/NNI pieces for their jobs, appropriate TP and WS sets and will use the right food for the right situation, opposed to Delve weapon users having a selection of anything from spectacular to pink/perle abyssea gear. Do good Delve weapon users not exist? Ofcourse there are some. There's just an equal amount, if not larger, that will flatout suck. I have both the Sword and the Greatsword from Delve, but even i will gladly give up my DD spot and change to BRD if i see a similar job with a 99 Relic looking for an invite as well. There's just no contest.
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reading this thread makes me angry delve weapons have brought out a new tier of elite *** who seem to think spending a few hours farming something makes them gods and better than players who spend months building relics and the gear to go with it, the only smart players in this entire thread are the ones who say its the player not the weapon, all the arguments and debating here are pointless, common sense and skill will get you alot better results than "i has new shiny weapon"
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said: » Quote: So an R/M/E or accepted equivalent is not adequate for doing Delve plasm farming? These are "bad weapons?" At this current stage of the game, they're definitely not preferred (@99, sans a few, like drg mythic). 85-95, yea they're bad at this stage in the game This is because Delve Polearm sucks balls. A quint spear would do better against it (yeah i'm exaggerating but you get the point). Lakshmi.Saevel said: » Fairy.Ghaleon said: » Lakshmi.Saevel said: » Fairy.Ghaleon said: » I honestly think he is just not able to sleep and giving us all a good troll at this point lol. There's no way he is that ignorant or full of himself. (though i definitely could be wrong) edit- going to bed now, goodnight guys, I'll read this later lol. oh wait, no i won't, this thread will probably be nuked in a couple hours lol. He's definitely messing with everyone, that or he's worse then pchan. Delve weapons are not required in the slightest for plasm farming. There's not enough mobs in there to keep a high end group fed. People are complaining about some idiots making them a requirement and he thinks he can rile a bunch of people up for troll points. As all the trolls have been banned from the OF they've started moving over here to cause drama. Meh Tsuko has been around here for longer than i can recall tbh. As for delve farming, He is actually correct that you may in fact be taking improper pathing, go read some bg threads, they might blow your mind on how much they can push their points per run lol. If people actually read my post they'd realize I was referring to the zone that 90% of the groups use, Ceizek, and that having Morimar access should be the prerequisite not Delve weapons. I've formed many plasm groups myself and the moment you mention Morimar a good 1/3rd of them say they don't have it and it becomes this long drawn out affair. I'm well aware that Morimar allows one group to roam up and down the hallways for 8K+, its still not limited by your weapons as you WILL run out of mobs in the central room and your still spending tons of time running. He's just deliberately being a douche in an attempt to be an internet tough guy. Next I'm expecting him to say Delve weapons are a requirement for Crystal Dragon, PW, Odin II, Legion and finally Pil. They are a requirement to not die on Ghillie Dhu first floor NNI. Dafuq did I just read?
Lakshmi.Saevel said: » There is a big distinction between damage potential and actual damage done. Gear most definitely determines damage potential, the better your gear the higher your ceiling. What gear doesn't do is teach people HOW to be a melee, there are many other things involved. That is where your get such a large gap between what's mathematically possible and what we actually see. You can't just set all capability equal to 100 and reduce the differences between players to gear alone, it's an incredibly misleading way to go about things. ^ I am gonna go with this.
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You didn't read much, apparently, because the hole in that line of thinking has been pointed out umpteen times now: you're going to get unpleasantly mediocre players on average, yes, but requiring that your unpleasantly mediocre player have a substantially better weapon is going to increase the average quality of your recruits.
Day-later reiteration: these aren't things that I would require, but the logic in the decision to do so is undeniable As a leader, I'd take players I know versus players I don't.
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Which is reasonable and was touched on/agreed with seven pages ago
kenshynofshiva said: » Just get black listed and never be invited back again pretty much FFXI is a small world after all. Lolreputation in 2013 FFXI. That era died a long time ago and with it the old guard of XI. Is that portal to '06 still open? I have some lottery numbers I'd like to call in. Like I said before, people typically don't gearcheck DD and gearchecking if you have an RME/Delve weapon ignores the need for various setups, food and buffs that drastically impact melee performance. These are things you can only really piece together with a good parser. You can claim to have a 99 Ukon and very, very few people will call you on it if you lied and are actually an 85. Rarer still are the people who will /pcmd kick <t> for it. Some people jot down the names of reputable characters for certain runs but thats more akin to a pseudo-LS/anti-PUG mentality than it is your reputation overall. I may be a forum regular, but I don't care enough to read the inane backlog. Page 1 was bad enough. That's my two cents. I didn't ask for your consent.
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And I don't require your consent to point out that your contribution was dated and virtually irrelevant.
I'm glad that we've established that neither of us need wait for permission to post. Please raise your hand before posting kids!
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The average increase of delve weapons is 40-50%. Youre not constantly fighting due to pulls. So if every DD had a delve weapon, at best it would increase the whole run 25%.
Basically, there's a lot of assumption that the average player with an 85-90 emp or 95 relic is good, but people with delve weapons aren't as skilled as them.
I don't think anyone said that.
Angeljcar said: » The average increase of delve weapons is 40-50%. Youre not constantly fighting due to pulls. So if every DD had a delve weapon, at best it would increase the whole run 25%. Any aftermath you have is destroyed because of this. I'd say not fighting 100% of the time gives delve weapons an even greater advantage. Valefor.Sehachan said: » I don't think anyone said that. If you don't know either person personally, on average it's going to be the better bet to go delve. If you know the person, then they will probably do better than a random, but that's already been established |
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