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By Afania 2018-10-06 22:26:16
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Of course with bolster pdif is capped. But without it often won't. Hence I said it shouldn't be a "standard" buff, because 90% of time bloster won't be up.

I find the statement like "GEO pretty much sorting out pDIF lets the COR use Fighter's Roll over Chaos Roll, that's a trick I often see people missing." Can be misleading for people reading this, theyd just assume sam/DA should be used for everything when in fact it's probably the ideal buff combo 5% of time, very job dependant too. (If you consider how extra buff slot can be used on defensive buffs etc.) So I just clear things up a bit.
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By cuddlyhamster 2018-10-06 23:03:56
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Quote:
Bard Songs (Assuming BiS)
Honor March (Marcato) = +348 Attack
Honor March (Soul Voice) = +646 Attack
Minuet V (Soul Voice) = +446 Attack

is bgwiki wrong on the marcato page stating that marcato does not stack with soul voice?
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By Ruaumoko 2018-10-06 23:35:19
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Afania said: »
Of course with bolster pdif is capped. But without it often won't. Hence I said it shouldn't be a "standard" buff, because 90% of time bloster won't be up.

I find the statement like "GEO pretty much sorting out pDIF lets the COR use Fighter's Roll over Chaos Roll, that's a trick I often see people missing." Can be misleading for people reading this, theyd just assume sam/DA should be used for everything when in fact it's probably the ideal buff combo 5% of time, very job dependant too. (If you consider how extra buff slot can be used on defensive buffs etc.) So I just clear things up a bit.
Fair enough, I should have been more specific.
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By Ruaumoko 2018-10-06 23:36:11
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cuddlyhamster said: »
Quote:
Bard Songs (Assuming BiS)
Honor March (Marcato) = +348 Attack
Honor March (Soul Voice) = +646 Attack
Minuet V (Soul Voice) = +446 Attack

is bgwiki wrong on the marcato page stating that marcato does not stack with soul voice?
(Sorry for double post).

Nah, they're right. The +646 is what Honor March gives with +4 Song and Soul Voice, not with Marcato and Soul Voice (won't work).
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By Odin.Horu 2018-10-07 01:08:38
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Ruaumoko said: »
ItemSet 361864

So I'm really aiming for something like that.

Best get working on Spharai then.

37% from gifts/merits.
40% from gear.
Subtle Blow capped from Spharai AM and the Adhemar Bonnet +1.
I'v been curious, why is geo's wilt/barrier never used in combination to regular party buffs?

If your able to cap counter with gear without using counterstance, you could essentially receive minimal physical damage from NMs while feeding minimal tp.
I wonder how strong counter attack dmg is when pDif is capped?
The broken/fixed WSD thing would make single/double monk more viable? go for 4-6 step SCs while feeding minimal tp meaning regain/hp% would be the main tp/mob_ws feed. altho shijin spiral should be more viable too now with WSD?

will suck if they nerf WSD
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-10-07 01:10:51
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people use wilt/barrier all the time...?
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By Odin.Horu 2018-10-07 02:44:36
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Strange, i rarely see it,I usually get told off for suggestion it, altho that was a while back
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-10-07 02:56:12
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Not once will anyone ever even consider using defensive geo buffs. It's not uncommon.

You have to make them do it.

(*)Does not apply to organized linkshells
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-10-07 08:47:55
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The numbers Rua posted are cool but likely unrealistic in a real standard setting, as Afania pointed out. I love the tornado kick and Monk numbers put out just have to be realistic and clarify for people passing by here. I have gotten two tells from people in game saying "BUUKKI MONK IS FIXED, It can do 60K tornado kicks!!". It's not actual a realistic scenario.

- Tornado and dragon kicks scale heavily with TP. Although Rua says he's doing it at 1500-2000 TP, he's using Godhands. So that's really 2250-2750 with moonshade, which is a significant upgrade. I have Spharai so i would normally have to use it a little higher than him to get similar numbers (this is important due to footwork short duration)

- most groups are going to use chaos and samurai roll just because it's more standard. If your Monk is good enough to have a sv 5s HM SV Bard, Corsair for regal (or rostam) rolls, and idris bolster, you're going to put out amazing numbers since Monk isn't that shabby itself.

- footwork only lasts one minute, so this is not something you'd be able to exploit for a long time. Best used for something like short zergs. Then swap to impetus smite, which I've never seen hit this hard on an omen boss. Once footwork wears off, the Monk show kind of drops. Also, suzaku feet and job points play a part here as well.

- I agree that fighters roll is probably the big part here. I've got 52k on just trust buffs to an Apex raptor, fighters probably does the same for TK as it does jinpu. Very nice to see but it's a specialty roll. I think fighters roll might be a more advantageous roll for Monk though now that we are on the topic. Monk gains considerably more wsd from it and one could argue chaos/fighters is a Monk's dream.

Defensive buffs aren't really needed for Monk. They have full su3 great which will allow them to walk through damage for the most part. Along with their high HP, makes Monk the easily best survivable DPS in game. You could probably drop a tank and grab another Monk or Geo and go to town with defensive buffs. Monster would hardly gain tp and would never be able to harm you that much.
 
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By SimonSes 2018-10-07 10:10:07
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There is the similar problem like before wsd change tho. With that kind of buffs RUN with lionheart will outdamage MNK pretty hard (and dps is steady for entire time not just 20% of the time with footwork up), while having much better defence mainly against debuffs, that can criple dps a lot, but also against physical tp moves and magic in general.

The highest advantage of mnk is subtle blow, but you would need to have tp moves scary enough or annoying enough to make it worth it over RUN. Also to take a real advantage of mnk tp feed, you probably should use mnks only, which would be really interesting, but it would be pretty hard to convince ppl to that, unless in 6man events maybe.

That being said you dont really need to go for max efficiency when damage is already good enough, so MNK can easily be used as DPS. On the other hand it was the case before too, but for some or maybe most top LS max efficiency is only thing thats viable, so mnk is still not viable and then other ppl look what top LSs use and try to copy that and suddenly MNK is not viable for everyone.
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By Afania 2018-10-07 10:16:23
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Not once will anyone ever even consider using defensive geo buffs. It's not uncommon.

You have to make them do it.

(*)Does not apply to organized linkshells

I do defensive buffs in ambu PUGs too, in fact PUG needs it more than ls runs LOL.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-10-07 12:23:29
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Afania said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Not once will anyone ever even consider using defensive geo buffs. It's not uncommon.

You have to make them do it.

(*)Does not apply to organized linkshells

I do defensive buffs in ambu PUGs too, in fact PUG needs it more than ls runs LOL.

They DEFINITELY need it more, still don't use it. That's the point.
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By Afania 2018-10-08 03:15:14
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arthursaga said: »
Afania said: »
Of course with bolster pdif is capped. But without it often won't. Hence I said it shouldn't be a "standard" buff, because 90% of time bloster won't be up.

I find the statement like "GEO pretty much sorting out pDIF lets the COR use Fighter's Roll over Chaos Roll, that's a trick I often see people missing." Can be misleading for people reading this, theyd just assume sam/DA should be used for everything when in fact it's probably the ideal buff combo 5% of time, very job dependant too. (If you consider how extra buff slot can be used on defensive buffs etc.) So I just clear things up a bit.

Ahh, the (in)famous Afania. Haven't lurked much on these forums, but have heard seen your other posts on other websites; you like to argue for the sake of arguing and to point out de minimus flaws in people's arguments in order to get attention. The only time you're happy with anyone's statement is when it is coming from you.

Ruaumoko has contributed more to Monk than you ever have, or likely will. An editor never gets as famous as the person they are editing, so hoping you understand that you will never gain as much respect as someone that identifies issues to help people versus entropizing (lololol) statements to point out flaws and mistakes to "put them in their place." You can argue that your suggestions are mere constructive criticism, but it's really a way for you to inflate your already inflated ego.

Per forum rules, likely this post will be deleted? Oh well.

I think you over react over someone who simply said DA/SAM roll isn't standard pt buff to base discussions on.

Or are you going to argue otherwise? Because I doubt the majority would agree that da/Sam is more standard than chaos/sam as pt buffs.

If you think my intention is to get attention then you are wrong, since I get 0 benefit from attention(more like annoyance), nor I get paid doing so. I dont even understand the point of "get attention" in a 15 year old game like you said. I just feel that certain statement on forum often made PUG do it wrong and his wordings may become one. Nothing more and nothing less.

You may think it's just "de minimus flaws" in a 15 year old video game, in FFXI wordings are serious business to those who cares, and not just me.

arthursaga said: »
The only time you're happy with anyone's statement is when it is coming from you.

This is not anywhere close to truth if you read my post history long enough. I generally accept people with different opinion if they back up with sound logic/data/evidence instead of resort to emotional argument or assumptioms.

In the case of cor buffs, it's either DA being a standard or it's not. If it is, then back up with logic and I wouldn't say anymore if I'm convinced. But even Ruau agreed with my point so I dont understand why are you so upset.
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By Odin.Horu 2018-10-08 04:49:12
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Nothing wrong with stating things in this forum,even disagreeing with someone is fine, personal opinions are fine too.

Its abusing/belittling someone that generally gets deletions/bans, nothing wrong with argueing, just don't make it personal arthursaga as Afania would have the right to report you in this instance because of calling him out (Be it true or not) about instances in another forum, it can be considered trolling so ease up please.

If he has abused or not anything in another forum, then he is to be handle on that forum according to their rules, not here.
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By SimonSes 2018-10-08 05:11:55
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Your post should be deleted not because of forum rules, but because of being worthless. If you have something to say to Afania, then use PMs. If you do it public like this, then you are the one seeking attention.

Now back to topic. None really referred to Buukki's post and he is right about TP scaling. Rua is considering counter set with Spharai, but with Spharai the WS damage will drop significantly.
1500-2000 TP on Tornado Kick (assuming at least one double attack proc per WS) with Spharai and moonshade is 7-8.25 fTP, while with Godhands it's 8.25-9.75 http://fTP. That's 17-18% more damage just from TP bonus. Another few % from 15 more base damage and Godhands probably also gets TP faster, even with Spharai AM up. Another question is why Rua was doing WS at 1500-2000 and not sooner. Is TP overflow so high, or was it intentional for higher numbers :P
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By Ruaumoko 2018-10-08 05:19:18
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SimonSes said: »
Another question is why Rua was doing WS at 1500-2000 and not sooner. Is TP overflow so high, or was it intentional for higher numbers :P
TP Overflow was high.

I was also being careful not to skillchain Kin (Tornado self-skillchains) or weapon skill during a rare TP attack, more the former than the latter.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-10-08 05:58:53
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If you were on Kin waiting for his casting to be using Tornado Kick I'm more surprised how 98% of the WS were NOT at 3000 TP.

Did Kin to help some friends the other day and I was having a hard time not being at 3k whenever he started casting lol.
Of course I wasn't bothering to turn around etc, Kin is so easy I normally play in lazy mode.
If you were constantly turning around never landing not even a single punch during the wrong moment, then maybe I can see you not being at 3k.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-10-08 06:07:43
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Kin is the fight you don't need Sam roll. And Godhands is a huge upgrade for Monk in general but especially for that fight. Monk can obliterate kin with those buffs and basically walk through tp moves in hybrid set.
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By Odin.Horu 2018-10-08 06:32:20
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has anyone tried non_counterstance with full counter gear and NQ jolt counters? It'd be a good starting point to see basic effects of counter against strong NMs since its a cheap option with decent counter stats (Along with dmg boost v enemy attack) and its general dmg stats isn't bad (Outside of REMA/JSE [whats the abbreviated name for the new JSE weapons? since oboro originally had a weaker set of JSE weapons]).

Also Buukki, Since you have a spharai already, have you tested if Spharai fully upgraded has counter as normal counter or it breaks the cap? much like apoc's haste aftermath changed from haste gear to haste ability at full upgrade.

I ask because i don't remember anyone stating any tests/results
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-10-08 06:35:44
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I haven't tested it breaking the cap. My tanking set has about 60 base or so. If I'm feeling lucky I'll pop counterstance for some real damage evasion and you can certainly notice the counters fly with them. but it does not seem to pass the 80% capFrom what I can see. Appears to be on par with samurai's seigan counter build I posted on Sam forums.
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By SimonSes 2018-10-08 06:58:53
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Asura.Sechs said: »
If you were on Kin waiting for his casting to be using Tornado Kick I'm more surprised how 98% of the WS were NOT at 3000 TP.

Did Kin to help some friends the other day and I was having a hard time not being at 3k whenever he started casting lol.
Of course I wasn't bothering to turn around etc, Kin is so easy I normally play in lazy mode.
If you were constantly turning around never landing not even a single punch during the wrong moment, then maybe I can see you not being at 3k.

That's because he wasnt waiting for casting. He was probably in low man situation with only mnk and someone else with high subtle blow as only DD and you don't wait for casting then, you just spam WSs, because with such strategy he will do TP move so rarely (he will probably do like 5-10 tp moves for entire fight?) that waiting for casting time has no sense.
 
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By SimonSes 2018-10-08 10:36:10
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DirectX said: »
I could hit 58k Savage Blades on Kin with MS up before WSD got glitched and without the kind of buffs Rua gets. Wonder if I could hit 65k with broken WSD and those buffs.

Inb4 "2hours don't count because you might do more than 1 Kin in a row!" again... despite Bolster and Soul Voice being used.

Pretty sure it's not about who can score higher damage. Like I said, RUN with augmented Lionheart, WSD set and same buffs as Rua had, will almost constantly hit for 50-70k damage with Reso, if he WS between 1500 and 2000 TP. It's a matter of other things that MNK can bring, while also doing good damage, like super low TP feed, which can potentially make everything safer. Question is if it's safer enough to for example drop healer for pseudo healer and improve damage further, or drop number of ppl needed to low man something. At least this is how I understand the concept here, because if you simply try to find a way to include MNK because his damage is now on par with top DD in zerg situation, then no, it isn't on par. MNK damage went up with wsd bug/fix, but so is damage of many other DD jobs, especially with capped attack and fighter's roll.

Another thing is DPS check. MNK damage is now good enough to for example make wave 3 clear in time, but I'm not sure if he wasn't good enough even before WSD change.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-10-08 10:55:02
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MNKs just don't pair well with other DPS, and oftentimes require a very independent setup for lowman to be successful.

COR (rolls) GEO BRD (NIN) MNK MNK can pretty much handle everything as far as a lowman strat is concerned. With the low tp feed and MNKs naturally high counter, HP, and magical defense from Su3, MNK can hold it's own with even something like a GEO or RDM healer. The moment you throw in another DD other than MNK into the mix, MNK's strong points (high Subtle Blow, low TP feed, High HP/Counter for survivability) start to diminish and you're getting no benefit from actually bringing the MNK vs another DD. MNK does appear to survive a bit longer than other jobs, but that comes at the cost of lower damage. So you have to plan for it.

The only setups I have found where MNK works extremely well are with other MNKs or with other high SB2 users. Generally, you can get away with adding a MNK to any zerg fight, but then it's going up against the same buffed DDs and it's going to lose in sheer firepower in a 2-3min fight. It does not fall horribly behind, though, it's just going to do less overall white damage (another MNK strong point) because point of zerg = ws. Point of MNK = niche setup, low tp feed, white damage over time.

They just don't play nice with other jobs is the reality, but when used in a controlled and independent setup, they shine really nice.
 
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By Odin.Horu 2018-10-09 10:02:34
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whats the current ability rotation?
With a cor random dealing impetus would be good for 6 minutes in a row of impetus, but outside random deal i assume its:

Focus+impetus then focus again then footworks? pretty much 4,1/2 minutes of continuous abilities?
With VS being for focus/impetus with WSD gear and TK for footworks?

would you merit focus down to 1min,40sec?
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By Asura.Topace 2018-10-09 10:16:55
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Impetus>Once that wears focus> Then Footwork> If I'm solo I pop dodge aftet that for Tactical Guard proc.


Berserk/Warcry if I'm slash war are used with footwork and focus respectively.

Speaking of tactical guard I really wish MNK had a version of the turms+1. Make it happen for Empy Hands!
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-10-09 10:23:30
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Odin.Horu said: »
whats the current ability rotation?

Generally, I start out with Berserk + Aggressor + footwork, if I'm ready to start spamming Tks. Once Footwork wears off, I'll throw up Impetus when Berserk has a 1 minute duration left (its an overlap strategy to constantly keep at least one attack/acc/crit bonus JA up). Then I'll repeat the process once Impetus wears off, since Berserk/Aggressor/Footwork will be ready again. You can get away with using Focus during your first footwork, and then during your Impetus Activation since it will be ready again. You gain the extra accuracy during your kicking WS, which is your true Bread and Butter, and then you gain the critical/acc bonuses during VS spam time, which should keep your damage consistent.

I like to throw in FHs here and there, though, to maintain +15% KA rate. It's also a very consistent weaponskill when underbuffed to be quite honest, so my rotation looks something like this (order is for max timer potential):

<<Fight>>

JAs: Berserk/Aggressor
FH (for AM)
JAs: Footwork/Focus
Spam Tornado/Dragon Kicks
[Footwork duration wears off]
FH (for AM)/Smite for one minute
[Berserk duration timer at 1:00]
Use Impetus/Focus
Spam Victory Smite or Self SC Smite > FH > Smite
[Impetus wears off]
<<cycle repeats>>
JAs: Berserk/Aggressor
etc~

Note: I use Focus + Impetus together because the duration is so short, so I'm not really getting much use out of it using it independently. In truth, you can use Focus after Footwork wears off, which will momentarily boost your VSmites for 30 seconds until you can pop Impetus another 30 seconds later. But with JA delay and all, I feel like it's a better option to just use your JAs in groups, rather than spaced out in your melee rounds, because more JA usage = less white damage over time IMO.

Warcry can be thrown in after Berserk and second focus wears off, if you want. But meh, at that point you're getting really surgical with JA use and it's not something you can sustain on the dot every single time. So meh.
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