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By pchan 2017-08-29 04:56:45
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With my sim the DA mantle wins with high buffs and loses with low buff, all this with a small difference.
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By jopa 2017-08-29 08:46:18
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
No one has noticed much of an effect, if any.
Waiting definitely has an effect on WS dmg:
Shoulder Tackle w/o Boost: 1969, 2011, 2047, 2052, 2046
Shoulder Tackle @14~15s remaining: 2093, 2213, 2132, 2146
Shoulder Tackle @13s remaining: 2169
Shoulder Tackle @9s remaining: 2285
Shoulder Tackle @3~5s remaining: 2525, 2472, 2551, 2488, 2488
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By dustinfoley 2017-08-29 08:50:55
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So giving up 14 seconds of melee time (white damage) increases a weapon skill by 400 dmg? You do realize a single hit of white dmg does that right?

If i am giving up 15 seconds of melee time, i want all the hits i would have done in 15 seconds added to my dmg. Should tackle should be doing > 15k if i am giving up 15 sec of attack.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-08-29 08:53:07
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Adding 400-500 DMG isn't much of an effect. You lose more DPS using Boost than if you didn't.

Even if it were an increase of 25% on all weapon skills, it still wouldn't be worth using. Because Boost eats up more time than it would take for a MNK to weapon skill a second time, had it simply punched through those 15-5 (fewer buffs~full buffs) seconds.
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By pchan 2017-08-29 13:43:18
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Ok I started looking at the spreadsheet, and I first noticed that kend body have "double attack" listed instead of "triple attack" !
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By Asura.Cloudblade 2017-08-29 16:49:17
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I stopped testing, but when I did, the increase looked percentage based for ws's, not a straight added value. Tested by lowering my damage with the same ws, and the higher my base dmg, the higher the boost buff's raw numbers became.
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By anik 2017-08-29 17:10:59
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Why does the melee damage gotta be white? Why can't it be black damage? or Asian damage?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-08-29 17:15:15
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anik said: »
Why does the melee damage gotta be white? Why can't it be black damage? or Asian damage?
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By anik 2017-08-29 17:27:35
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That one hurt.
YouTube Video Placeholder
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-29 18:36:24
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
anik said: »
Why does the melee damage gotta be white? Why can't it be black damage? or Asian damage?
Vanilla or Chocolate or even Strawberry damage?
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By Felgarr 2017-09-06 04:01:49
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I am so saddened by monk, but I feel like I wasn't using Boost before update, so I won't be using it now?
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-09-06 04:07:28
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Boost was tipically a loss before the patch, but there were a couple of situations where it was worth to use it.
With how it works now I can hardly think of many (any?) situations where it would be worth to use the new version.

The same goes for the new Focus/Dodge. Sure it got much better but the new durations kinda *** you up, so it's a loss or a gain depending on how you wanna look at it. I'm leaning on the former.

The boost to Kick Attacks, Footwork and new values on the weapons instead look like a small but overall only positive change to me.
Still, not enough to change things for MNK in a relevant way I'm afraid.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-06 09:51:44
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Asura.Sechs said: »
The same goes for the new Focus/Dodge. Sure it got much better but the new durations kinda *** you up, so it's a loss or a gain depending on how you wanna look at it. I'm leaning on the former.

It's typically an increase, but only in really short fights, dodge has always been ***and not worth using.
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By fonewear 2017-09-06 10:53:21
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They could have just fixed weaponskill damage but this is SE and they don't know wtf they are doing.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-06 11:33:20
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fonewear said: »
They could have just fixed weaponskill damage but this is SE and they don't know wtf they are doing.

IKR. Seriously just make VS transfer fTP like CDC. Would fix most of the problem and make MNK kinda competitive.
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By Asura.Gotenn 2017-09-06 16:36:54
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You cant just make the fTP tranfer on VS. Because who would bring a monk when that effects PUP just as much, and they have a pet to add to the DPS.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-09-06 19:50:58
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make VS mnk only, solution solved! not like pup doesnt have a nice pup only h2h ws.
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-09-06 19:55:50
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I'm sure the people that made Verethragna with PUP in mind would just love that.
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By fonewear 2017-09-06 20:32:54
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Siren.Kyte said: »
I'm sure the people that made Verethragna with PUP in mind would just love that.

No one cares about PUP but if it helps them out too that is a bonus !
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-06 21:50:34
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fonewear said: »
Siren.Kyte said: »
I'm sure the people that made Verethragna with PUP in mind would just love that.

No one cares about PUP but if it helps them out too that is a bonus !

Yeah that's kind of the thing lol, those PUP's with their ... resist amnesia and ... evasion bonus. MNK's at least bring something to the table with high HP and Mantra / FS occasional Focus smashing. Pets are absolute trash without appropriate pet buffs and PUP is the weakest of the pet jobs for damage. I'm not concerned about VS PUP doing anything but making everyone laugh at them. There is nothing a PUP can do that a MNK doesn't do better, in a party DPS situation. Not much better but it's still better.

Master MNK with Vere is at 351 delay and with capped magic and gear haste is at 109.6875 (not sure how it handles fractions) delay which is still above the 96 delay floor. Could actually add about 41 more MA to get to the floor.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-09-07 11:21:36
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Saevel, I'm not sure that's right. It is possible I'm not understanding how H2H/Martial Arts works, though...

I'm pretty sure, due to the relationship between MNK's base delay and the delay of Verethragna, the minimum delay that a user can experience is 112.2

Where are you getting a delay floor of 96?

Here is what I calculated back on August 13th:
Quote:
So the minimum delay we can experience with Godhands is:
(480 + 138) * .2 = 123.6

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Godhands delay is:
(480 + 138 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 127.5

13 more Martial Arts would put you at 123.4375, or a hair too far.
12 is the most you'd want to wear.


For sake of comparison:

Glanzfaust
So the minimum delay we can experience with Glanzfaust is:
(480 + 126) * .2 = 121.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Glanzfaust delay is:
(480 + 126 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 123.75


Spharai
So the minimum delay we can experience with Spharai is:
(480 + 116) * .2 = 119.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Spharai delay is:
(480 + 116 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 120.625


Verethragna
So the minimum delay we can experience with Verethragna is:
(480 + 81) * .2 = 112.2

When Haste-capped and Mastered, Verethragna delay is:
(480 + 81 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 109.6875

You could add up to 8 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Glanzfaust.

You could add up to 4 Martial Arts gear and not exceed the delay cap when wearing Spharai.

Please, anyone, feel free to confirm my method and results.

What does this mean? Well looking forward...

It means, unless you use Godhands or Glanzfaust, wearing Bhikku Cyclas +1 during Impetus puts you in the same goddamn spot you were in prior to SE's misguided, stupid, brain-dead adjustment to all H2H weapons rather than to MNK's misguided, stupid, brain-dead gift table.

And if, whenever they get around to adding them, Bhikku Cyclas +2 and +3 have higher Martial Arts values, they could put all MNKs back where they were prior to the August Downdate.

There aren't enough curses in the world to express how I'm feeling towards SE's incompetence.
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By Asura.Chiaia 2017-09-07 12:46:08
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He talking about the minimum H2H delay period (480 x .2). What he messed up on was saying that you could add 41 more MA to get to it but you can't there is still a 80% reduction cap outside of hundred fist which you can slightly break the cap stacking MA gear.

Outside of a 0 delay weapon on h2h you can never hit 96 min delay.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Attack_Speed
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-07 13:25:41
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
He talking about the minimum H2H delay period (480 x .2). What he messed up on was saying that you could add 41 more MA to get to it but you can't there is still a 80% reduction cap outside of hundred fist which you can slightly break the cap stacking MA gear.

MNK doesn't have JA haste, nor do many other jobs.

480 * .2 = 96, that's the absolute floor

2100 JP MNK is 270, Vere is +81 for a base delay of 351.

Magic haste cap is 448, Gear haste cap is 256
256 + 448 = 704/1024 = 0.6875. 1.0-0.6875 = 0.3125, this is your actual delay multiplier from haste.

351 * 0.3125 = 109.6875 delay, which is above the 96 delay floor.

A Vere MNK with capped JP and available haste isn't hitting delay floor and needs +43 more MA to get there, the 41 I mentioned earlier was a guesstimate and the reason I said "about". 308 is the real value that should be targeted.

351 - 43 = 308 * 0.3125 = 96.25

The delay addition from a weapon, just like the reduction from MA, is added after the game figures out the floor. Prior to the delay increase MNK would just barely exceed that floor naturally, SE raising the delay gave H2H jobs enough room to add more MA.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-09-07 13:36:31
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That 96 is the floor without any H2H weapon equipped.

Check that link from Chiaia.

Quote:
For Martial Arts, which is not a percentage-based decrease, you must use your base delay (480 for H2H) plus weapon delay in the calculations instead of calculating it independent of delay as shown above.
Minimum H2H delay is 96
The 80% Delay reduction cap still applies to your (Base Delay + Weapon Delay).
For example when calculating delay with H2H you take (480 (Base Delay) +xx (+Weapon Delay) -xx(MA Delay Reduction))×(1024 - xx Equipment Haste - xx Magic Haste - xx Job Ability Haste)÷1024 =xx
The minimum delay possible for a Spharai would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay)*.2 Delay cap = 113.2 minimum possible delay.
The delay for a Spharai Monk with capped gear and magic haste only, would be (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay - 200 Martial Arts Delay)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 448 Magic Haste)=114.3 which is nearly minimum delay. You would only need 1% job ability haste from Haste Samba to cap delay reduction.
Adding Haste Samba from a Dancer without merits or /Dancer and the haste spell would look like (480 Base Delay + 86 Weapon Delay - 200 Martial Arts Delay)×(1024 - 256 Equipment Haste - 150 Magic Haste - 51 Job Ability Haste)=202.6
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-07 14:11:14
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The way it's written isn't very clear and I can't find any references to original work, just everyone pointing at each other after it magically appeared on a page. I've since learned not to trust anything that doesn't have some sort of post / testing linked.

In any case 109.6875 delay compared to the other cap of 112.2, so your only 2% with Vere and still just fine just no need to dig around MA gear.
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By Asura.Chiaia 2017-09-07 14:28:56
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The problem with MA didn't have to do with hitting 96 what it had to do with was normally over capping delay like adding more DW after a point hurts DW users.

Take godhands delay
Old Min: 108 (480 + 60) * .2
New Min: 123.6 (480 + 138) * .2

1200+ JP MNK
Using capped gear and magic haste would hurt TP gain because of the 2 Gifts.
Old: (480 + 60 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 103.125
It wasn't breaking the 108 min delay for Godhands it was just hurting your TP gain because the game used 103.125 for your TP gain calc.

New: (480 + 138 - 210) * (1024 - 256 - 448) / 1024 = 127.5
We now actually have some wiggle room for MA gear or JA haste such as haste samba. Note Haste Samba might still be to much didn't calc it out.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-07 14:38:30
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
Old Min: 108 (480 + 60) * .2
New Min: 123.6 (480 + 138) * .2


This is the part I'm questioning because I have yet to see one shred of information that actually proves floor is determined after +delay, it just seems to be assumed.

MA is just a reduction in delay, the same as +delay is an increase. Logically they should be applied simultaneously. Every other form of delay modification in the entire game is applied ~after~ the delay floor is determined. I've spent the day looking through old posts on BG, here and even ancient Allakazam and KillingIfrit stuff for something showing some guy testing when the cap is being applied. Even the -/+ Delay grip is done after.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-09-07 14:56:02
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Nothing about MNK makes much sense. But the best thing to do would be to dispute it with testing of your own. Please don't spread untested misinformation just because you question the (supposedly tested) information on BG-Wiki.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-09-07 15:00:08
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Please don't spread untested misinformation just because you question the (supposedly tested) information on BG-Wiki.
I saw that if you use Footwork, then Dodge, then Chi Blast in that order within a 2 second interval, it would make your WS damage go up by 2,000%. Especially on Tornado Kick.

My father works in SE and he told me so I heard it from a friend who's father works in SE "tested" it.
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-09-07 15:03:16
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I found testing under Hundred Fists testing.
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