An Insight Into RUN/GEO

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An insight into RUN/GEO
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By Enuyasha 2013-02-21 20:00:16
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
A 5-second-recast JA you're supposed to spam on a melee class is basically asking for people not to bother playing it.
the fun thing is if it would get a provoke that isnt half potency below 49 would be amazing for PLD. Not just RNF's tanking ability :< which would be nice...cause then it could go /WAR and spam two vokes instead of one :<
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By Xenetex 2013-02-21 20:15:00
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Isn't stun fairly close to voke as far as enmity?
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-02-21 20:25:45
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Asura.Deadwing said: »
I'd like to point out that, depending on how they fix the enmity system, RDM may once again be able to hold hate again through cure cheats.

Cure cheats were always the fast (but dirty) way to cap VE at level 75 before switching to spamming CE spells. Rdm's hate generation from cure cheats is roughly the same as it was, with MP being a lot easier to come by. If enmity gained from damage dealt is reduced, cure cheating may once again be a viable way for plds and rdms to cap hate fast.

I'm not sure against what mob RDM would do better than PLD NIN or RUN, but holding hate is always the first step.
The enmity modifier for cures declines as level rises. And this continued from 75 to 99. Cure enmity is quite a bit worse(lower) than it was at 75.

And, as was mentioned, RDM has Tranquil Heart. Further reducing enmity gain via cures. Which was also a kick in the nuts to PLD/RDM. -.-

They'd have to absolutely destroy Damage enmity for cure cheats to be a viable tanking method again. It's still a usable supplement, just not a very good one. Unless they adjust cure enmity upward, which would be really bad for all the healers. <,<;;
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-21 20:52:26
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Enuyasha said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
A 5-second-recast JA you're supposed to spam on a melee class is basically asking for people not to bother playing it.
the fun thing is if it would get a provoke that isnt half potency below 49 would be amazing for PLD. Not just RNF's tanking ability :< which would be nice...cause then it could go /WAR and spam two vokes instead of one :<


The problem is JA delay. Spamming a 5-second-recast JA is going to murder any damage output the job could possibly provide, eliminating it as a tank in any meaningful fights, and will make it even more useless for events where you have to move around unless you're using JA0wait.

If the rune JAs were targetted/offensive, this job would absolutely dominate Dynamis, but then it would be COMPLETELY useless anywhere else because you couldn't precast 5 stacks.

The way it's described, RUN is basically DRK if DRK had to nuke to actually use its abilities and traits. Take note; this is what happens when you'd rather have hype than a beta.
 
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-02-21 23:55:08
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I admit, I hadn't accounted for the larger cures. It's been some time since I seriously evaluated cure cheats. But good god it's gonna take a lot of hp -/+ gear to get full use outta that. Eventually, I decided my elaborate cure cheat sets weren't worth the inv anymore on PLD. And RDM can get far more cure potency than PLD. Don't get me wrong, I loved my cure kits. But they just weren't worth it anymore.

I haven't personally tested the cure enmity mod since lvl 90 or so. And I'm not interested enough to go retest or research, so I'll take your word on that 15% decline.

Is -18% the value you get at RDM99 healing skill? I'd read it scaled up to a max of -25% with more healing skill. Anyway, tranquil heart is in a separate term from enmity, being applied afterwards. So your gains from enmity+ gear take a hit too.

In anycase, even if the enmity changes are potent enough to make cure cheats a viable enmity source again(which I'd like personally, more enmity tools are good), I very much doubt it'd revive RDM tanking. And if it did, I suspect SE would nerf it again. They've made it very clear that they do NOT want RDM as a tank.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-22 03:19:29
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It depends on that nature of the JA's. DNC is a prime example of a job that ~could~ spam JA's if it needs too but it could also chose not to. Chances are RUN will have an assortment of abilities and can use them to increase some sort of internal battery / timer similar to what DNC steps do. They could then exhaust that supply to do various effects on a different timer. We need to know what the specific effects are prior to determining whether it would be worth it to spam or not.

Also weapon selection is INCREDIBLY important. Not having access to Rag is understandable but not having access to OaT Fulgarte or other Magian weapons would immediately make this job DoA. I can not express how important it is that this job gets access to Fulgarte or it's equivalent, and I'm not talking about a weapon that takes 400,000,000 gil to create either.
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By Sakuhra 2013-02-22 03:56:19
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I wish they would just release a short gameplay video of both jobs and show them in action, the addon will be released in a a few weeks and we only saw them for a few seconds in the trailer
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-22 04:05:04
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I don't care if haters say run will be bad! I love pup too afterall. Gonna play it and love it.
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By Asura.Calatilla 2013-02-22 04:28:44
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Both jobs sound interesting to me. As soon as I heard about RNF I kinda knew it was going to bury RDM even deeper than it already is. Then SE went ahead and comfirmed it.

SE`s logic has always been, if you can't fix the job make another one to replace it.

BLU, SCH and now RNF
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-22 08:30:53
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
It depends on that nature of the JA's. DNC is a prime example of a job that ~could~ spam JA's if it needs too but it could also chose not to. Chances are RUN will have an assortment of abilities and can use them to increase some sort of internal battery / timer similar to what DNC steps do. They could then exhaust that supply to do various effects on a different timer. We need to know what the specific effects are prior to determining whether it would be worth it to spam or not. Also weapon selection is INCREDIBLY important. Not having access to Rag is understandable but not having access to OaT Fulgarte or other Magian weapons would immediately make this job DoA. I can not express how important it is that this job gets access to Fulgarte or it's equivalent, and I'm not talking about a weapon that takes 400,000,000 gil to create either.


If RUN DOESN'T spam the rune JAs, it's a DRK with no abilities or traits and likely less native attack.

Almost exactly like a BST with no pet. Great gear selection and a powerful weapon skill; nothing else.
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-22 08:35:00
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
They've made it very clear that they do NOT want RDM as a tank.

Which was made all the funnier when they used RDM as a tank in that hilarious AV video from years ago.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-22 09:00:41
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
It depends on that nature of the JA's. DNC is a prime example of a job that ~could~ spam JA's if it needs too but it could also chose not to. Chances are RUN will have an assortment of abilities and can use them to increase some sort of internal battery / timer similar to what DNC steps do. They could then exhaust that supply to do various effects on a different timer. We need to know what the specific effects are prior to determining whether it would be worth it to spam or not. Also weapon selection is INCREDIBLY important. Not having access to Rag is understandable but not having access to OaT Fulgarte or other Magian weapons would immediately make this job DoA. I can not express how important it is that this job gets access to Fulgarte or it's equivalent, and I'm not talking about a weapon that takes 400,000,000 gil to create either.


If RUN DOESN'T spam the rune JAs, it's a DRK with no abilities or traits and likely less native attack.

Almost exactly like a BST with no pet. Great gear selection and a powerful weapon skill; nothing else.


Which is exactly what it's going to be anyway. Spamming JA's is useless for any melee to do, might as well disengage and go AFK for all the good you'll do. Every action has a 2s penalty attached to it. With a 5s activation time your looking at only swinging for 3 out of every 5s or a 40% reduction in speed. Let me reiterate that so thick individuals can grasp it, 40% reduction in swinging time. Your not a tank, your not a melee, your just sucking up a party slot while contributing absolutely nothing of value because your stuck in pause 40% of the time.

Now in all honestly it'll be like DNC with the 5s recast being present on it's elemental abilities. It's designed such that the RUN will be able to change it's elemental alignment quickly if need be but also so that it can rapidly built up to max and then leave it until it wears off.

As for your comment about abilities / trait, so good for you to tell us exactly what JA/JT SE will decide to add to RUN. Why should we wait for the info when you can just tell us how many attack bonus / magic defense bonus traits it'll have and what it's enhancing magic skill rate will be. Could you also tell us if it's runes will be based on enhancing skill and what their formula is when subbed? Inquiring minds want to know.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-22 09:02:30
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Even if it's only good for solo I'll be happy, really.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-22 09:08:53
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
As for your comment about abilities / trait, so good for you to tell us exactly what JA/JT SE will decide to add to RUN. Why should we wait for the info when you can just tell us how many attack bonus / magic defense bonus traits it'll have and what it's enhancing magic skill rate will be. Could you also tell us if it's runes will be based on enhancing skill and what their formula is when subbed? Inquiring minds want to know.

holy ***dude slow your roll

which of us, you or I, are speculating more about what RUN will or will not have, based on what we know right now about the job?

if DRG or basically any DW job can't get a passive attack buff, why would you think RUN would? SE doesn't even acknowledge the fact that JA delay exists; they probably think you are currently being all ENSPELLS? *** YES

Quote:
Now in all honestly it'll be like DNC with the 5s recast being present on it's elemental abilities. It's designed such that the RUN will be able to change it's elemental alignment quickly if need be but also so that it can rapidly built up to max and then leave it until it wears off.

...oh

Quote:
Which is exactly what it's going to be anyway. Spamming JA's is useless for any melee to do, might as well disengage and go AFK for all the good you'll do. Every action has a 2s penalty attached to it. With a 5s activation time your looking at only swinging for 3 out of every 5s or a 40% reduction in speed. Let me reiterate that so thick individuals can grasp it, 40% reduction in swinging time. Your not a tank, your not a melee, your just sucking up a party slot while contributing absolutely nothing of value because your stuck in pause 40% of the time.

This is exactly what I said, and kept saying, because apparently the internet had this article for about 6 hours and I was the first person to whom it occurred to mention that yeah, this core mechanic makes the job totally unplayable...?

(even if JA delay didn't exist, using a spammed ability every five seconds in this, the world's most unresponsive video game was not especially fun when I did it on RNG and I doubt it will be much better here)
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-02-22 09:48:04
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think runeknight will have better gsword skill then drk? >_<
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-22 09:53:39
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Probably, a whole 8 more! Or something like that
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2013-02-22 10:05:25
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Or maybe SE will reduce JA delay?

*Out the window*
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-22 10:06:03
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A- to A+ is 7, so yeah. 417 -> 424. /hurray
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By Fenrir.Jeville 2013-02-22 15:22:44
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By Zeota 2013-02-22 17:25:24
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Also weapon selection is INCREDIBLY important. Not having access to Rag is understandable but not having access to OaT Fulgarte or other Magian weapons would immediately make this job DoA. I can not express how important it is that this job gets access to Fulgarte or it's equivalent, and I'm not talking about a weapon that takes 400,000,000 gil to create either.
Couldn't agree with this more. Honestly their reasoning for leaving the post-zilart jobs off of relics may have held water back at 75, but that went out the window once they decided to raise the level cap. Not having either job on magians would be just plain criminal.
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By Enuyasha 2013-02-22 17:32:00
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Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-22 17:59:25
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Enuyasha said: »
Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks

GEO gets elemental magic, how does staffs not matter?
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-22 18:02:20
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks

GEO gets elemental magic, how does staffs not matter?

Yeah I'd be upset if they weren't on at least the ToM dmg staff trials :(
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-22 18:41:14
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Did they ever specifically say "No Magian Weapons"? I know they said no Empyrean weapons, but lacking magians entirely will severely limit the usefulness of the jobs.

(I hope that I will be able to dust off my good ole OA2 gsword for Rune Fencer.)
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By Fenrir.Jeville 2013-02-22 19:41:57
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks

GEO gets elemental magic, how does staffs not matter?

Yeah I'd be upset if they weren't on at least the ToM dmg staff trials :(
Woodworkers will be pleased, maybe?
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-22 19:55:12
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Fenrir.Jeville said: »
Odin.Eikechi said: »
Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks

GEO gets elemental magic, how does staffs not matter?

Yeah I'd be upset if they weren't on at least the ToM dmg staff trials :(
Woodworkers will be pleased, maybe?

Idk, I think people may not even consider the job at that point then. Idk if I would if my only option for a weapon was so meh as far as nuking staves go. I have a chat, and I use it for the spells I don't have the ToM staff for because I don't want to make all of them, but still. If it was my ONLY option, I'd be quite sad as a Geo. And run would need a big time Gsword (maybe the new legendary, or w/e) to compete in the enmity generation. They both look like every promising jobs, but gear will play a decent factor, not just the weapon choice.
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By Enuyasha 2013-02-22 20:17:44
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Well for Geo it doesnt really matter...what would you staff and club...which dont really hold any significance to the job?

I agree, no Caladbolg,Almace,Ragnarok,or Excalibur sucks

GEO gets elemental magic, how does staffs not matter?
if you look at the one before this i specifically was replying to someone moaning about being left off R/E weapons. If they get magian weapons im sure they'd add bells which would enhance Geo more than staves, which their magic seems to be based on. Not just elemental potency.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-23 03:16:18
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Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Did they ever specifically say "No Magian Weapons"? I know they said no Empyrean weapons, but lacking magians entirely will severely limit the usefulness of the jobs.

(I hope that I will be able to dust off my good ole OA2 gsword for Rune Fencer.)

Emps share the same starting path as the Fulgarte. Not having the OaT as an option pretty much puts at a DNC's level of desirability or even at a Melee RDM's.

People really need to unattach their brain from the "tank clas!!!!0101010101" label that SE's attached to it. SE fails horribly at understanding how we play this game and while their finally (after 8+ years) seeing where the problems exist in the hate system their changes are not going to remove the real tanks ability to tank. This games real "tanks" are WAR, DRK, MNK and sometimes SAM (BLU gets special mention). These jobs can not only dish out high damage but also mitigate incoming damage via specialized gear sets. In order for any other job to be competitive at "tanking" they need to do the exact same thing, put out high damage while mitigating enough incoming damage to survive. This is where most PLD's fail miserably, they refuse to put out anywhere near the damage levels they need to be considered for selection. Taking 0 ~ 20 damage per attack does absolutely nothing if everyone else is dieing or you time out.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-23 04:34:46
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Siren.Thoraeon said: »
Did they ever specifically say "No Magian Weapons"? I know they said no Empyrean weapons, but lacking magians entirely will severely limit the usefulness of the jobs.

(I hope that I will be able to dust off my good ole OA2 gsword for Rune Fencer.)
Originally they said no magians, then people wondered "empy only at least?" and they said nope, Caladbolg and Gambanteinn aren't balanced for run and geo.............lots of dots to express my disagreement with said statement.
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