The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Nariont 2019-03-18 14:41:04
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »

Asura.Geriond said: »
So, about Lycurgos's TP Bonus based on current HP stat. Testing could off by 1-2 seconds because I used timestamp instead of a stopwatch.

Testing with Armor Break (180/360/540 second duration at 1000/2000/3000 TP):

786/1768 HP, 1000 TP: 180 seconds (+0 TP)
1768/1768 HP, 1000 TP: 228 seconds (~+267 TP)
3808/3808 HP, 1000 TP: 305 seconds (~+694 TP)
5373/5373 HP, 1000 TP: 360 seconds (+1000 TP)
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2019-03-18 14:45:32
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
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i actually find these to be the most balanced weapons that SE has ever released. they are everything the Dynamis weapons should have been. cant decide if I am going to make staff or h2h for my third one.

I couldn't agree more. None of the new weapons are actually breaking the game, and each of the jobs has a superior REMA alternative. The lack of aftermath coupled with the unique quirks of each weapon places their power level just under an REMA. But the gap is so close that it doesn't feel bad at all to pick one up and start hacking away at content on a job you're new to. They provide an alternative to grinding for half a year or more for a finished REMA, and you can finish the 4th stage in an hour or two. The fourth stage is actually really good too, so the jump to the fifth stage doesn't feel terribly misplaced when you consider the whole of it. In the worst case scenario it's 50 mil, but that's still a drop in the bucket compared to what a REMA would set you back. So they give us options. We're still free to finish our REMA's if we want to, and that provides an avenue for further progression beyond the ambu's. And it also doesn't alienate the people who already went through the grind, which is important and a wise move on s-e's part. That happened once in adoulin and it stirred outrage galore. It's refreshing to see them avoid the same mistake, while still delivering content that feels solid and is something people can genuinely be existed about completing.

All in all, these ambu weapons are one of the most balanced sets of toys they've ever developed. They're pretty fantastic all around.


I think one of the best things that this Upgrade did was that it boosted Melee jobs to a much closer gap near Smn 1hr burns. No it still isn't better, but it provides us with alternatives to end game content besides simply doing astral flow -> win.
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By Afania 2019-03-18 14:51:46
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Odin.Senaki said: »
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
i actually find these to be the most balanced weapons that SE has ever released. they are everything the Dynamis weapons should have been. cant decide if I am going to make staff or h2h for my third one.

I couldn't agree more. None of the new weapons are actually breaking the game, and each of the jobs has a superior REMA alternative. The lack of aftermath coupled with the unique quirks of each weapon places their power level just under an REMA. But the gap is so close that it doesn't feel bad at all to pick one up and start hacking away at content on a job you're new to. They provide an alternative to grinding for half a year or more for a finished REMA, and you can finish the 4th stage in an hour or two. The fourth stage is actually really good too, so the jump to the fifth stage doesn't feel terribly misplaced when you consider the whole of it. In the worst case scenario it's 50 mil, but that's still a drop in the bucket compared to what a REMA would set you back. So they give us options. We're still free to finish our REMA's if we want to, and that provides an avenue for further progression beyond the ambu's. And it also doesn't alienate the people who already went through the grind, which is important and a wise move on s-e's part. That happened once in adoulin and it stirred outrage galore. It's refreshing to see them avoid the same mistake, while still delivering content that feels solid and is something people can genuinely be existed about completing.

All in all, these ambu weapons are one of the most balanced sets of toys they've ever developed. They're pretty fantastic all around.


I think one of the best things that this Upgrade did was that it boosted Melee jobs to a much closer gap near Smn 1hr burns. No it still isn't better, but it provides us with alternatives to end game content besides simply doing astral flow -> win.

Would say the power creep happened on Sept 2018 when Rema got r15, and subsequent pdif limit update.

This update simply made none rema/casual player DD has dps close to a R15. It doesn't actually push the ceiling of absolute top that much higher except a few jobs like savage cor.
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-18 19:20:35
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
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This is an oversimplification. Additional hits can miss, Samurai Roll is a thing (and does not provide a static value), and you get hit by mobs and their AoEs. Your baseline is also off (/NIN instead of /DNC). I would stick to 2 handers when using any kind of x-hit build modeling.

Trying to model an x-hit build with dual wielded weapons isn't going to translate what you see on paper to what happens in the game very well at all. In addition to what's been said, when you're dual wielding human error and reaction time comes into play and you often end up overshooting your mark and wasting tp at 1300 or 1400 tp fairly frequently just because you're swinging so fast. Also multi attack procs can skew things further, and when you consider that multi attack procs work on both hands during your weaponskill even moreso. The rule of thumb when dual wielding is pretty simple. More sTP and multi attack procs is always better, and always translate to higher weaponskill frequency. When you're swinging a pair of weapons with already low delay under a capped delay reduction situation, getting random multi attack procs both during TP phase and with the weaponskill itself, getting random increases to TP whenever mobs hit you, and then if you throw samurai roll in there and factor in human error a dual wield "x" hit just goes out the window.

DWing is actually easier to work around then 2H because the TP increments are smaller. With 2H it's either all 200 per swing or 0 per swing, you either hit 1000 in WS +4(or 3) hits or you don't and thus it becomes annoying that you have to hit certain static thresholds for base builds. With DW because TP is more incremental being a little under a specific build isn't going to punish you as much in time.
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By Spaitin 2019-03-19 10:21:57
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Dolechinus is a pretty solid alternative to Farsha for cloudsplitter builds. 62 more MDMG. 40 MACC 16 MAB and 22 more MACC skill. probably not better. Just a solid alternative.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-19 10:29:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
This is an oversimplification. Additional hits can miss, Samurai Roll is a thing (and does not provide a static value), and you get hit by mobs and their AoEs. Your baseline is also off (/NIN instead of /DNC). I would stick to 2 handers when using any kind of x-hit build modeling.

Trying to model an x-hit build with dual wielded weapons isn't going to translate what you see on paper to what happens in the game very well at all. In addition to what's been said, when you're dual wielding human error and reaction time comes into play and you often end up overshooting your mark and wasting tp at 1300 or 1400 tp fairly frequently just because you're swinging so fast. Also multi attack procs can skew things further, and when you consider that multi attack procs work on both hands during your weaponskill even moreso. The rule of thumb when dual wielding is pretty simple. More sTP and multi attack procs is always better, and always translate to higher weaponskill frequency. When you're swinging a pair of weapons with already low delay under a capped delay reduction situation, getting random multi attack procs both during TP phase and with the weaponskill itself, getting random increases to TP whenever mobs hit you, and then if you throw samurai roll in there and factor in human error a dual wield "x" hit just goes out the window.

DWing is actually easier to work around then 2H because the TP increments are smaller. With 2H it's either all 200 per swing or 0 per swing, you either hit 1000 in WS +4(or 3) hits or you don't and thus it becomes annoying that you have to hit certain static thresholds for base builds. With DW because TP is more incremental being a little under a specific build isn't going to punish you as much in time.

That's actually a pretty intelligent way of looking at it. Never thought of it that way.
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By Phoenix.Mikumaru 2019-03-19 11:24:50
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Here's a silly question: has anyone made the Final Form and tried to make a Stage 4? Dunno if the coding would allow it, it seems the RME weapons are coded from their base to be just augmented versions so you can't have an AG Twashtar and off hand Twashtar119 (I mean what kind of sadist would do that twice,right?) I'm just curious.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-03-19 11:46:32
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There's a difference. Twashter is rare/ex, and whether it's afterglow or not it still has the same name. The rare tag is why you can only have 1 of them. People used to dual wield Mandau/Batardeau at the lvl 75 cap. There's no reason to believe dual wielding Tauret/Kaja Knife won't work in the same fashion. And Kaja Knife takes an hour ot two to get, so once you have the Tauret there's no reason not to give it a try if that's the build you wanna run. I'm 99.99% sure that not only is it doable, but there are probably a bunch of people running a Tauret/Kaja Knife build already.
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-19 12:15:13
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The name doesn't matter when it comes to items. Each Twashtar has a different item ID, as do the ambuscade weapons.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-03-19 12:36:27
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Edit: Ignore this post. I had frgotten a few things when writing it. Edited out for inaccuracy.
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By Asura.Karumac 2019-03-19 15:35:40
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And now for a completely different question:
If I understand the description on BGWiki as written, Tomahawk removes a flat 25% from monster DT values. Is this correct or am I reading it wrong and it's only removing DT from special things?

It says it also effects anti-magic, has anyone ever tested if it lowers the nuke wall?
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By SimonSes 2019-03-19 16:33:28
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Asura.Karumac said: »
And now for a completely different question:
If I understand the description on BGWiki as written, Tomahawk removes a flat 25% from monster DT values. Is this correct or am I reading it wrong and it's only removing DT from special things?

It says it also effects anti-magic, has anyone ever tested if it lowers the nuke wall?

It removes DT like skeletons DT against piercing. If enemy takes 100% damage from all sources, then it removes nothing. For magic I ahve no idea.
 
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By Shiva.Cziella 2019-03-19 18:17:57
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It removes the sea jailer pot NM resistances to weapon types (at reduced dmg, but otherwise would do 0) and even magic. I suppose the Escha Sky counterpart works as well? I never done that on war.
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By oyama 2019-03-19 19:04:46
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So I've been bringing my war up little by little, and chango is a goal but not sure when I'll get it let alone R15 it. I have a kaja axe and most of the materials for a second kaja, which i was thinking of doing polearm. I can upgrade one of them to pulse stage. Dolichenus or Shining One? I was kinda leaning toward Doli because i had a lot of fun with kaja axe on RUN, but it has Lionheart already so it's really a war weapon I'm after. Thoughts?
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-19 19:45:37
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Asura.Karumac said: »
And now for a completely different question:
If I understand the description on BGWiki as written, Tomahawk removes a flat 25% from monster DT values. Is this correct or am I reading it wrong and it's only removing DT from special things?

It says it also effects anti-magic, has anyone ever tested if it lowers the nuke wall?

It removes SDT values not DT values, they are very similar but not the same. With merits and relic you will get a 30% reduction, but this is multiplied not subtracted. If a monster has 50% resistance to slashing and you use Tomahawk it's .50 * .70 = 0.35, so now it's 35% resistance to slashing.
 
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By Asura.Yso 2019-03-19 23:12:55
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Asura.Yojimmbo said: »
Savage Blade ws set? Can I have it?

alt1
ItemSet 365302

or

alt2
ItemSet 360441

Mix and match based on what you have available. If you're going for fencer, then blurred shield +1 in sub.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-03-19 23:30:10
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In general I recommend against using Fotia for Savage Blade.
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By Asura.Yso 2019-03-20 02:57:14
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Asura.Byrne said: »
In general I recommend against using Fotia for Savage Blade.

I'm guessing War. beads +2 > +1 > NQ, which is more than enough readily available options.
 
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By Shiva.Flowen 2019-03-20 15:59:24
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DirectX said: »

Blurred Shield +1 for offhand savage blade. Having Fencer active is like +750TP assuming master, JSE neck and shield +1 (off the top of my head)
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By SimonSes 2019-03-20 16:02:31
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
DirectX said: »

Blurred Shield +1 for offhand savage blade. Having Fencer active is like +750TP assuming master, JSE neck and shield +1 (off the top of my head)

1h + blurred shield is only better if you have DNC giving you haste samba and only assuming accuracy requirements is high enough to not let you TP with TP bonus offhand, because then TP bonus offhand is best.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2019-03-20 16:10:58
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SimonSes said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
DirectX said: »

Blurred Shield +1 for offhand savage blade. Having Fencer active is like +750TP assuming master, JSE neck and shield +1 (off the top of my head)

1h + blurred shield is only better if you have DNC giving you haste samba and only assuming accuracy requirements is high enough to not let you TP with TP bonus offhand, because then TP bonus offhand is best.

He asked for savage blade, not unique situational theoretical better dps including savage blade and white dmg over time factoring in other buffs/party composition. Keep in mind with tp bonus offhand you're swapping +250tp for WSD7%, 14crit rate, acc/att +20 from fencer/shield, not to mention what you're losing from having to gear and buff for acc.
 
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 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2019-03-20 17:42:33
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DirectX said: »
Was asking compared to Reikiko. Not sure where the shield derail fits in with the original question.

Asura.Yojimmbo said: »
Savage blade ws set? Can I have it?

This original question? For which the answer is, I recommend blurred shield +1 in offhand as it’s the best option (fencer, wsd+7, crit+, acc/att, you likely waste magian tp bonus during warcry unless you ws before 1050tp, don’t have to sub nin, don’t have to gear full acc to utilize etc). I was pointing out savage blade sets in general, not your specific question. Barbarity +1 is indeed better than reikiko for savage blade if you want to dw
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-20 18:15:02
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Is this for max total DPS or just max Savage damage?

Fencer builds are really slow for building TP due to not being capped on delay reduction, this is why we use DW builds which build TP significantly faster. Reikiko should be about the same as Barbarity due to Savage only being 50% STR and Reikiko having regain. The real "winner" would be Digirbalag with STR and WSD augments, remember that Axe gets STR +10 / DA +3 naturally before augments are tossed on.

On the note of DW vs Fencer, DW swings 56% faster so it's somewhere around 30~36% faster at TP gain depending on delay.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2019-03-20 18:27:53
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Is this for max total DPS or just max Savage damage?

Fencer builds are really slow for building TP due to not being capped on delay reduction, this is why we use DW builds which build TP significantly faster. Reikiko should be about the same as Barbarity due to Savage only being 50% STR and Reikiko having regain. The real "winner" would be Digirbalag with STR and WSD augments, remember that Axe gets STR +10 / DA +3 naturally before augments are tossed on.

On the note of DW vs Fencer, DW swings 56% faster so it's somewhere around 30~36% faster at TP gain depending on delay.

My comment was made with savage blade damage in mind. If DWing, isnt axe and decimation better?

Asura.Saevel said: »
The real "winner" would be Digirbalag with STR and WSD augments, remember that Axe gets STR +10 / DA +3 naturally before augments are tossed on.

I dunno, +8% WSD on barb+1 is really big for savage, and digir at max is still 3 less str and alot less attack (outside DM augs)
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