The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-09-07 13:39:46
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I could have sworn the go to weapon skill for club warrior was judgment. The tp growth is so high and I remember during a previous course ambuscade it used to wreck. Hexa with beryllium if you're pairing mighty strikes would probably be insane, though
 Sylph.Darkside
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By Sylph.Darkside 2018-09-07 15:13:57
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Rua made a quick video showcasing some weapons warrior can use. If my memory serves me correctly Hexa and Black Halo hit very hard on Course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWj9qv6rlyE
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-09-07 15:20:35
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Judgment's great but has terrible SC properties. Realmrazer sans Tishtrya enhancements is just a terrible Hexa.

Hexa versus Black Halo will depend on who you're SCing with.
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 Shiva.Ariaum
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By Shiva.Ariaum 2018-09-09 01:37:48
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I could have sworn the go to weapon skill for club warrior was judgment. The tp growth is so high and I remember during a previous course ambuscade it used to wreck. Hexa with beryllium if you're pairing mighty strikes would probably be insane, though

wut?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-09 07:39:02
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Ragnarok.Lockfort said: »
What's the go-to WS for club? Doing unafraid of the dark and wanted to know which WS to gear for.

If doing Fencer then Black Halo, it's the Savage Blade of clubs, it also happens to be in the same SC category as Savage, Fragmentation.

If Dual Wielding then Hexa with the that club, Hexa is fusion.
 Bahamut.Asphaar
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By Bahamut.Asphaar 2018-09-10 19:59:03
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Thoughts on weapons after augments? Ragnarok is going to be a MS zerg weapon? What are your thoughts on GA? Looks to me it’s going to be Chango > Bravura > Ukon > Conq?
 
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By geigei 2018-09-11 05:01:11
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What are values on +2 neck? nq looks like a sidegrade, unless you need the extra acc.

Chango was a beast before, the gap just got wider.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-11 06:25:21
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geigei said: »
What are values on +2 neck? nq looks like a sidegrade, unless you need the extra acc.

Chango was a beast before, the gap just got wider.


I love my Chango and it honestly performs better as a Spam weapon than Montante (Better Acc/Attack, WS Damage is higher on average and has the bonus of Closing Light/Rad) so I’m happy to see it get a boost.

However, what’s everyone’s thoughts on Labraunda Path B.. if I’m reading the description correctly, this will be like a Raetic but with no MP Draw... my imagination is telling me that’s gonna be broken.
 
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-11 17:35:15
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
geigei said: »
What are values on +2 neck? nq looks like a sidegrade, unless you need the extra acc.

Chango was a beast before, the gap just got wider.


I love my Chango and it honestly performs better as a Spam weapon than Montante (Better Acc/Attack, WS Damage is higher on average and has the bonus of Closing Light/Rad) so I’m happy to see it get a boost.

However, what’s everyone’s thoughts on Labraunda Path B.. if I’m reading the description correctly, this will be like a Raetic but with no MP Draw... my imagination is telling me that’s gonna be broken.

Bump?

Also, Rag loses to Montante in a MS Zerg before (that delay is a pretty big issue). It might be able to catch up now with the extra crit damage... I’ll plug it into spreadsheets and see (will only work for weaponskill Damage, something borked in the melee formulation unless Byrth ninja-fixed)
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-11 19:58:49
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Quote:
performs better as a Spam weapon than Montante

And that nullifies anything said afterwards.

Now with the recent upgrades to Aeonics, Chango Upheaval may now be competitive damages wise with Montante / Reatic Reso spam. It's already vastly superior for making SC's and thus I find myself using it the most, cause Upheaval -> KJ -> Upheaval is pretty boss.

The +2 neck I'm looking over, it looks to be STR/DEX +15 DA +7 Atk/Acc +25. Would be great if the STR was VIT or if it had +15 STR/VIT or just +25 VIT, but currently not sure how it falls in with the rest and is it worth the 200m it would cost.
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By BlaTheTaru 2018-09-11 20:41:25
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Would I gear for KJ like upheaval but for STR?
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 08:06:15
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Quote:
performs better as a Spam weapon than Montante

And that nullifies anything said afterwards.

Huh?

He was asking about Ragnarok’s relavance to zerging and I was asking about Labraunda, the SU5 Greataxe? Thoughts? Path B = Raetic without the MP Pull? Or is that bad translation on SE’s part?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 08:39:29
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Huh?

Quote:
I love my Chango and it honestly performs better as a Spam weapon than Montante (Better Acc/Attack, WS Damage is higher on average and has the bonus of Closing Light/Rad) so I’m happy to see it get a boost.

That entire sentence is horrible, anyone thinking that would not be reliable for discussing damage potential among weapons. Montante +1 / Reatic + Resolution is the king for pure DPS vommit, being STR based and WAR's natural inclination to proc multi-attacks helps it immensely, not to mention Savagery awesomeness. Upheaval's damage doesn't scale up nearly as well as Resolution even with Chango. GAXE does have better SC properties and with Chango Upheaval becomes amazing at both linking and closing SC's where the SC bonus damage can make up for the DPS shortfall compared to Reso. This is all prier to the recent updates because Upgraded Chango has Upheaval +10% which might change a few things, needs more investigation.

The SU5 weapons appear to be OaX and not additional effects, Reatic like.

First realize that Raetic weapons work identically to the Jailer weapons, only instead of consuming a stone to proc an additional effect they consume MP to proc an additional effect. The bonus attack is an "additional effect" that can only proc on the first hit of the attack round (of that weapon). The Su5 weapons seem to be just OaX weapons like Joyeuse / Ridil / ect which provides a chance of an additional attack if no other bonus attack has proced.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-09-12 09:01:04
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The SU5 weapons are Raetic-like, not OAX, confirmed by SE.
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By Sockfoot 2018-09-12 09:12:17
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Asura.Geriond said: »
The SU5 weapons are Raetic-like, not OAX, confirmed by SE.
I mean.. not that I don't trust SE, but I don't trust SE.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 09:20:41
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but I was only stating an opinion? And on spreadsheets and field tests have Upheaval spam yielding higher WS Averages and DPS than Resolution with capped pDIF by merely holding TP til 1250 (no difference since you get this TP Virtually by default when buffed)and I never stood up and said “Use this, it’s better” because it doesn’t become better until you have A LOT of gear behind it. literally the only reason I even still use Mont is Omen because Resolution doesn’t chain with itself unless Lionheart is around but With Chango... accidental healing of 90k+ Rads can happen... and before you say Raetic, it literally only works well in Escha so honestly... why?

And you and I already had this discussion when Relic Head +3 came out so where’s this even coming from? XD Stop lashing out at people, man. It’s not healthy. I’m concerned.

As for Labraunda it literally reads like how Raetic works, that’s why I asked. Jeez...
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 10:04:55
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Sockfoot said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
The SU5 weapons are Raetic-like, not OAX, confirmed by SE.
I mean.. not that I don't trust SE, but I don't trust SE.

Asura.Geriond said: »
The SU5 weapons are Raetic-like, not OAX, confirmed by SE.

Anyone actually tested this because SE is notorious for mistranslations and misunderstanding, aka the Fotia gorget / belts.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
but I was only stating an opinion? And on spreadsheets and field tests have Upheaval spam yielding higher WS Averages and DPS than Resolution with capped pDIF by merely holding TP til 1250 (no difference since you get this TP Virtually by default when buffed)and I never stood up and said “Use this, it’s better” because it doesn’t become better until you have A LOT of gear behind it. literally the only reason I even still use Mont is Omen because Resolution doesn’t chain with itself unless Lionheart is around but With Chango... accidental healing of 90k+ Rads can happen... and before you say Raetic, it literally only works well in Escha so honestly... why?

Huh wtf.. no they don't. Resolution has far better TP scaling then Upheaval, plus Warrior's naturally high MA favors Resolution for extra hits while Upheaval only gets 1.0 for extra hits. Upheaval isn't bad by any means, but it's not Resolution. Now with the WS +10% that might change since that is applied to all hits and is cause for a reevaluation.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-09-12 10:15:33
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The recent presentation by SE specifically has them spend a couple minutes on the SU5 weapons' multi-attack path and how it works just like the Raetic weapons (minus the MP drain), and not like DA or OAT.

There's no chance of it being a mixup here.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 10:19:24
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Like I said, we’ve been down this road before. Average Resolution when capped buffs is typically around 35~40k sometimes higher if you end up with extra TP for whatever reasons (Amnesia, Holding because of reasons, etc). And with Upheaval backed by AF Body+3, Relic Head+3, Odyssean Hands and Legs, Sulevia Feet +2, Moonshade Earring, Knobkierrie, Kaerie Ring it’s average was higher both on paper and practice as long as you held to 1250 (which again, is not really a hold at all) and that’s not even aiming for Skillchains.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 10:29:03
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Asura.Geriond said: »
The recent presentation by SE specifically has them spend a couple minutes on the SU5 weapons' multi-attack path and how it works just like the Raetic weapons (minus the MP drain), and not like DA or OAT.

There's no chance of it being a mixup here.

Ok cool just wanting to be 100% sure before we start delving down that road. A +40% bonus attack is *very* powerful and could alter the meta once more info is nailed down. It doesn't proc on WS's but would accelerate TP gain to either create more WS's or fuel more TP towards the next WS's damage. Quantity has a quality all it's own.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 10:44:18
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Like I said, we’ve been down this road before

And you were just as wrong then as you are now. WSD only applies to the first hit of Upheaval. Also why the hell do people want to "save until X" when it doesn't provide any benefit to them? Yes over TP happens but that just adds to average WS damage, your not deliberately trying to do it and most certainly not with Upheaval. 2K WS Tp with Upheaval isn't some magical point where it's damage skyrockets, it's just the point where WSD ~usually~ overtakes Multi-Attack for pushing up WS damage. The actual point changes for each slot based on what's in other slots.

To get an idea of the TP scaling difference

3K Upheaval is 9.5 fTP
3K Resolution is 12.25 fTP (5-hit)

Now we can't use those directly because 3K Upheaval has 6.5 fTP on the first hit and you can get a lot of WSD on it, while Resolution favors packing on Multi-Attack to add extra hits. We also get into which buffs to use because Chaos Roll has started to be deprecated in favor of Fighters Roll.

3K upheaval (6.5 * 60%) + 3.0 = 13.4
3K resolution (2.45 * 6.5) = 15.92

These aren't exact but gives an idea of the damage potential of both, you won't be saving TP at all and just letting lose the moment your able to. Even when adding the 500 TP Bonus from Chango, Resolution still ends up edging it out. Now the recently added WS +10% on Upheaval might be sufficient to put it on par, which is what I'll be shifting out later on. Also remember it's far easier to pump up damage on a STR based WS then on a VIT one. I have about the best gear for both of these WS's that you can get and can rightfully say Upheaval doesn't beat Resolution for spamming.

Now at the end of the day, if your goal is to "be different and not with the crowd" then you'll just do what you and justify it afterward. Don't come on here and try to create a new meta by passing those justifications off.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 10:50:17
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fTP values:


@1000 TP
Assuming two DA procs (which favors resolution)
59% WSDMG on Upheaval
Moonshade for both
Fotia on Resolution, forgot to add .2 to Upheaval

That Upheaval is without accounting for Chango's TP Bonus, btw. Nor the WSDMG augment.
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 11:19:24
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Sylph.Cherche said: »
fTP values:


@1000 TP
Assuming two DA procs (which favors resolution)
59% WSDMG on Upheaval
Moonshade for both
Fotia on Resolution, forgot to add .2 to Upheaval

That Upheaval is without accounting for Chango's TP Bonus, btw. Nor the WSDMG augment.

Thank you.

The two were near-equal when Relic Head +3 hit the scene, but Upheaval winning unless skillchaining is virtually impossible.

This isn’t napkin math, this is from spreadsheets. And furthermore, field-tested. Apex Jagil and Apex Bats Specifically. Ran out there with my WHM GEO COR mules (I miss Cornelia btw) buffed up (COR is Regal and yes, 11s only) and killed mobs in controlled conditions and recorded results. Upheaval’s WS Average was just about tied with Resolution I think it might’ve been maybe slightly behind? Like 700ish? But that’s pretty damn trivial honestly.

I don’t know what part of this is giving you heartburn. I guess if you know for a fact that you’re not gonna cap pDIF, Resolution should be the clear winner. Otherwise, the two are extremely close/tied forcing Upheaval to win just because it chains with itself and other things. Of course, an intentional Skillchain will be better but you CAN just dump if you want to.

Edit:

To address some of your statements,
We both have the best gear, we are both players that have invested billions of Gil into this job. In fact, unless you have some really good Dark Matter Augments (*** you, Oseem) there’s a fair chance that I outspec you. Make no mistake, this is not a novice speaking.

And for your confusion as to why I chose to Hold TP, it’s for the fTP Value which changes to 3.5 at 2000 (it’s only 3.5 but better than 1+w/e ftp of your current TP at the time).
Chango adds 500, Moonshade adds 250, so you need only hold til 1250, and your WS holds the same power as if it were 2000. Exactly the same method you would use if spamming Rudra on THF with Aeneas. I’m honestly confused why you would question that; it’s a slight hold for a sizable boost in damage, why not?

As for your statement on STR WSs being easier to gear, this is true and exactly why I don’t go trying to tell everyone “Upheaval only”. BUT Most gear available to WAR comes with copious amounts of both STR and VIT so gearing isn’t exactly a disaster either. In fact, it’s probably one of the reasons Upheaval keeps getting better, the gear for it is satisfying your fSTR and VIT needs in one go.

That’s the reality; Upheaval, when maxed out, is the superior option unless there are reasons. And I just remembered there’s a WSD +5% Ring out that I don’t have yet so it’s probably even worse already.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 11:53:00
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Thank you.

You really shouldn't be paying attention to Cherche, nobody else does. If you stop for a moment you'll figure out whats wrong with his statement.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
This isn’t napkin math, this is from spreadsheets. And furthermore, field-tested

Neither is true. Spreed sheeting still has Reso spam at the top but the difference isn't very large. Field testing by yours truly, who happens to have pretty much the best gear for both and spends an *** ton of time tuning stuff, has Reso still winning in pure spam. The recent addition of Upheaval +10% and the +40% Extra Attack might change things though.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
I don’t know what part of this is giving you heartburn

It doesn't, I just call out ***when I see it, regardless if it makes other people feel bad. The joke among high end DPS is "why do you even bother to help the idiots on the forums who can't even tune their own sets and need someone else to do it for them". Realize that FFXIAH has become just like allakahzam was, lots of noise and people circle jerking around each other.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
I guess if you know for a fact that you’re not gonna cap pDIF, Resolution should be the clear winner.

It's the inverse, Resolution suffers an attack penalty which impacts it greater if your not capping. This happens more often then people will admit.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Otherwise, the two are extremely close/tied forcing Upheaval to win just because it chains with itself and other things. Of course, an intentional Skillchain will be better but you CAN just dump if you want to.

This is the root of the problem, your not understanding the two separate situations these are used in. If you are the only DD then you should be using Chango and doing a multi-step, if it's just you and a COR, you should be using Chango and doing a multi-step. WS spam is for when there are multiple DD's all dumping pure damage into a target. In that scenario the possibility of a SC approaches zero because there is a concept known as a SC window and going too soon will cause the WS's not to link, there needs to be a slight pause and with 4 DD's going there will almost never be that pause. Spamming a WS while your the only DD is dumb, unless some sort of anti-SC mechanic is present.

First thing people need to learn about playing Warrior is that there is never "one best weapon to rule them all", the job has access to an immense arsenal of sharp pointy stuff. Different situations will call on different weapons and play styles, adapting to change and selecting the appropriate response is critical, otherwise go play SAM, DRK or DRG. None of the sharp items in my walking armory is "the best", they are just tools to be used as needed. This is also why I don't "post my lua's", I'm constantly changing them, adding new code or conditions, making new gear sets, tweaking old ones for different situations, that kind of stuff.
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By Afania 2018-09-12 11:59:28
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We had this discussion about ws property months ago. SC dmg can be relevant when you have run tank cor both spamming fragmentation ws at 1000 tp. It's very obvious on scoreboard.
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 12:25:05
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Saevel, we both have the best gear.

There’s actually a chance I might outspec even yourself unless you have crazy DM augments. I’ve hand tested these results myself and your saying you’ve done the same but yielded different results. We’re both people who tinker and tune things all the time.

Chango spam is winning and for good reasons. If you still disagree, that’s fine but put up numbers otherwise I’m gonna have to call *** on you.

To be clear, I AM NOT talking about Raetic Algol. It’s far too circumstantial to be reliable for all players and scenarios. I’m talking Montante +1 vs Chango.

This forum is supposed to be about discussion. So discuss. If there’s something you don’t like, provide evidence, logic, reason. And if all you can do is Trump (“No!... Wrong!...”) without SOMETHING behind it just... sit down. You don’t like misinformation I get it, but this is not such a case and even if it were, you don’t need to be so aggressive about it
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