The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 12:30:43
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Afania said: »
Realistically, we can't hit exactly 3 times right before every single WS due to multi attack proc, white dmg would weight a bit more.


Reading comprehension do you have it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Empy AM3 just doubles your melee damage, so just multiply the melee damage by two and it's still no where near the WS damage, just 18% of the total damage.


Stop trying to give AM3 a bigger effect then it actually has, it's 50% for +200% damage, or mathematically 100% proc for +100% damage.

It just doubles your melee damage END OF STORY.

If your melee average would of been 1330, then AM3 makes it 2660. Stop trying to judge with eyeballs. Averages are what matter here.
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By Afania 2018-03-04 12:43:43
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Afania said: »
Realistically, we can't hit exactly 3 times right before every single WS due to multi attack proc, white dmg would weight a bit more.


Reading comprehension do you have it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Empy AM3 just doubles your melee damage, so just multiply the melee damage by two and it's still no where near the WS damage, just 18% of the total damage.


Stop trying to give AM3 a bigger effect then it actually has, it's 50% for +200% damage, or mathematically 100% proc for +100% damage.

It just doubles your melee damage END OF STORY.

If your melee average would of been 1330, then AM3 makes it 2660. Stop trying to judge with eyeballs. Averages are what matter here.


Average dmg is not what I was saying, though. My point is you are will not hit exactly 3 times before every WS because of MA proc.

And no I didn't eyeball anything.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 12:49:39
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Yes 3.75 is the average at capped attack, it's because the actual pDiffmax is going to be random and that's the value in the middle of the range.

At capped attack we get

2H pDiffMax is 4.125
2H pDiffMin is 3.375

A random number between those two is chosen. The average between them is guess what, 3.75.

Then you multiply by a number of 1.00 and 1.05, I left this part out earlier and it's what Austar was saying. We can use 1.025 as an average.


Quote:
Ratio = Attacker's Attack/ Target's Defense
1H melee weapons have an effective ratio cap of 3.625
H2H melee weapons have an effective ratio cap of 3.875
2H melee weapons have an effective ratio cap of 4.125
Archery and Throwing have an unknown ratio cap (perhaps approximately 3.2375)
Marksmanship also has an unknown ratio cap (perhaps approximately 3.475)
Example: 1H Player Earthworm Jim has 1000 Attack and is fighting a monster that has 500 Defense. His Ratio is 1000/500, or 2.00.

Quote:
2. qRatio[edit]
1. Determine the Upper and Lesser Limit
Upper Limit (See UL Equations)
1H qRatio caps at 3.25 for non-crits and 4.25 for crits
H2H qRatio caps at 3.5 for non-crits and 4.5 for crits
2H qRatio caps at 3.75 for non-crits and 4.75 for crits
Lesser Limit (See LL Equations)
Min/Max is only there for testing convenience; do not bother with them if they are confusing

3.75 is useful for averages as it will represent the midpoint between the Upper Limit and Lower Limit.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 12:50:22
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at capped attack pdif min is 3.75 and pdif max is 3.75
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:05:08
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Afania said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Afania said: »
Realistically, we can't hit exactly 3 times right before every single WS due to multi attack proc, white dmg would weight a bit more.


Reading comprehension do you have it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Empy AM3 just doubles your melee damage, so just multiply the melee damage by two and it's still no where near the WS damage, just 18% of the total damage.


Stop trying to give AM3 a bigger effect then it actually has, it's 50% for +200% damage, or mathematically 100% proc for +100% damage.

It just doubles your melee damage END OF STORY.

If your melee average would of been 1330, then AM3 makes it 2660. Stop trying to judge with eyeballs. Averages are what matter here.


Average dmg is not what I was saying, though. My point is you are will not hit exactly 3 times before every WS because of MA proc.

And no I didn't eyeball anything.

Average damage is all that matters period.

As for your comment on MA procs, you really shouldn't of said that because I was giving you the benefit of a doubt and being conservative. Those WS estimates assume no MA procs fueling them up, see Resolution has nearly linear power growth with TP, so any extra hits past 1K just add more damage to it. So whenever you add an extra melee hit to inflate AM3 effect, add another few thousand damage to that WS while your at it. I was purposefully underselling the WS potential so as not to do what your doing and exaggerate.

It's quite simple, AM3 adds about 3~5K damage per WS cycle. If that weapon lowers your average WS cycle by more then 3~5K then AM3 will be a net loss. SAM Masamune gets away with using it because the +50 STR from Masamune offsets the loss of +500 TP Bonus enough that there is a net positive gain in damage. You are trying to change the entire build under much less favorable circumstances and then using the "power of friendship" to make up the difference.

Here is what the average melee damage on a 119 AG Ukon will be against a moderate target. Remember we don't TP in STR gear.

340 + 28fSTR = 368 * 3.75 * 1.025 = 1414.5

The highest will be
368 * 4.125 * 1.05 = 1593.9

The lowest will be
368 * 3.375 * 1.00 = 1380

You don't get to choose when the ODT procs, nor when a critical hit procs, nor do you get the choose where on the spectrum the pDiff roll lands at. The law of averages takes over and it's all averaged out. This is why AM3 just doubles your average melee damage and people need to stop eyeballing the crits and thinking that's anywhere near the average.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:05:55
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The highest will be 368 * 3.75 * 1.05, the lowest will be 368 * 3.75
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:08:49
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
at capped attack pdif min is 3.75 and pdif max is 3.75


You know better then that.

Lower Limit on qRatio is wRatio -0.375.
Upper Limit on qRatio is wRatio +0.375

3.75 is qRatio.

You agree with me because these are your own definitions and statements made months ago.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
The highest will be 368 * 3.75 * 1.05, the lowest will be 368 * 3.75


Either you lied months ago or lieing now because you specifically quoted the 4.125 figure.

Or most likely your pretending to be under attack cap and just not mentioning it, or playing with terms and definitions like Attack Cap, Upper / Lower Limit, pDiff Max and so forth.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:12:44
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No, you're just wrong again. If I have 5x mob defense:

5 / 1 = 5.
Upper Limit = 5 + 0.375, lower limit = 5 - 0.375, both are subject to the cap of 3.75
So now we pick a number between the lower and upper limits, both are 3.75, so the only option is 3.75.

Then we multiply by a value between 1 and 1.05

Giving us between 3.75 and 3.75 * 1.05
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:13:15
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
at capped attack pdif min is 3.75 and pdif max is 3.75


You know better then that.

Lower Limit on qRatio is wRatio -0.375.
Upper Limit on qRatio is wRatio +0.375

3.75 is qRatio.

You agree with me because these are your own definitions and statements made months ago.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
The highest will be 368 * 3.75 * 1.05, the lowest will be 368 * 3.75


Either you lied months ago or lieing now because you specifically quoted the 4.125 figure.

Or most likely your pretending to be under attack cap and just not mentioning it, or playing with terms and definitions like Attack Cap, Upper / Lower Limit, pDiff Max and so forth.
The 4.125 is what your ratio caps at, for someone bitching about reading comprehension, you have none.

Attack cap is 4.125 a mob's defense. Upper and lower limit are results based on the ratio of your attack and mob's defense, and if you have 4.125+ times the mob's defense, lower and upper are both 3.75
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:15:30
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
No, you're just wrong again. If I have 5x mob defense:

5 / 1 = 5.
Upper Limit = 5 + 0.375, lower limit = 5 - 0.375, both are subject to the cap of 3.75
So now we pick a number between the lower and upper limits, both are 3.75, so the only option is 3.75.

Then we multiply by a value between 1 and 1.05

Giving us between 3.75 and 3.75 * 1.05
Byrth off BG for pDiff testing


Quote:
It looks like they just extrapolated the last melee pDIF equations to higher caps. Those equations are:
* Upper Limit = wRatio + 0.375
* Lower Limit = wRatio - 0.375

Quote:
The final result of these equations is capped based on 1H (non-crit: 3.25, crit: 4.25) vs. 2H (non-crit: 3.75, crit: 4.75) type. Ratio no longer has a formal cap, but it stops being effective at different points for 1H and 2H weapons:
* 3.625 effective wRatio cap for 1H weapon users
* 4.125 effective wRatio cap for 2H weapon users

Quote:
Ah, the "Ratio cap" is the point at which the bounds of your pDIF equation stop changing. It's not quite the same as the pDIF cap

I've been right and your just screwing around with words.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:17:59
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you just quoted something I've been saying.

and you also don't understand any of what you're linking
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:21:54
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Ratio = Attacker's Attack/ Target's Defense

cRatio = Ratio since there is no level correction these days

Calculate wRatio using your cRatio

If you critical hit: wRatio = (cRatio + 1)
If you do not critical hit: wRatio = (cRatio + 0)

wRatio - 0.375 lower and wRatio + 0.375, 2H qRatio caps at 3.75 for non-crits and 4.75 for crits

Randomly select a value between LL and UL

Multiply the final value by a random number between 1 and 1.05
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:22:04
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
you just quoted something I've been saying.

And it's what I've been saying too.

Asura.Saevel said: »
You agree with me because these are your own definitions and statements made months ago.

Asura.Saevel said: »
I'm assuming 9999 attack vs 1 defense monster for "capped attack". So again 3.75 average and then 1.025 tacked on.

You've been agreeing with me so far.

Put down your hateraid for a moment and realize he's actually agreeing with you. Which he should be considering he's using the exact same stuff you threw out back when we argued about when exactly the attack is capped.

In fact I remember I used to say 3.75 was "attack cap" and you attacked me that it was past 4.0 because if someone only had 3.75 exactly but rolled higher then they wouldn't have the attack to cover it and would be capped at 3.75 regardless. My original belief was that any attack past qRatio cap was meaningless as the upper / lower random was added after the cut, to which you corrected me on.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:26:36
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Put down your hateraid for a moment and realize he's actually agreeing with you. Which he should be considering he's using the exact same stuff you threw out back when we argued about when exactly the attack is capped.
who are you even talking about? you quoted yourself

and attack is capped at 4.125 a mob's defense

"2H melee weapons have an effective ratio cap of 4.125"
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:28:30
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Put down your hateraid for a moment and realize he's actually agreeing with you. Which he should be considering he's using the exact same stuff you threw out back when we argued about when exactly the attack is capped.
who are you even talking about? you quoted yourself

To show that I've been saying I've been agreeing with you since a page ago. You just saw a statement and went on the offensive without even reading or considering that I was regurgitating stuff you wrote awhile back.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
and attack is capped at 4.125 a mob's defense

Which is what I've been saying for over a page now. To which you replied.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
The highest will be 368 * 3.75 * 1.05, the lowest will be 368 * 3.75
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:30:54
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Asura.Saevel said: »
In fact I remember I used to say 3.75 was "attack cap" and you attacked me that it was past 4.0 because if someone only had 3.75 exactly but rolled higher then they wouldn't have the attack to cover it and would be capped at 3.75 regardless. My original belief was that any attack past qRatio cap was meaningless as the upper / lower random was added after the cut, to which you corrected me on.
There was a time when that was the case, but the numbers were a bit different. How it works now is you calc your ratio and from there determine the lower and upper limits, which in the case of a non crit both cap at 3.75, so effectively attack caps at 4.125 since it makes your lower limit cap at 3.75. Anything past 4.125 will not change it. But for example, if you had only 4x a mob's defense, you can roll between 3.625 and 3.75 (before the secondary randomizer.) It's now similar to ranged in that capping attack removes the random aspect, except the secondary roll which ranged attacks do not have.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:31:51
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Put down your hateraid for a moment and realize he's actually agreeing with you. Which he should be considering he's using the exact same stuff you threw out back when we argued about when exactly the attack is capped.
who are you even talking about? you quoted yourself

To show that I've been saying I've been agreeing with you since a page ago. You just saw a statement and went on the offensive without even reading or considering that I was regurgitating stuff you wrote awhile back.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
and attack is capped at 4.125 a mob's defense

Which is what I've been saying for over a page now. To which you replied.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
The highest will be 368 * 3.75 * 1.05, the lowest will be 368 * 3.75
attack vs a mob's defense will cap at 4.125, but the lower and upper rolls will both be 3.75. not like what you stated here:
The highest will be
368 * 4.125 * 1.05 = 1593.9

The lowest will be
368 * 3.375 * 1.00 = 1380


We don't agree completely, you still think the lower and upper limit is different than what it is. At capped attack (4.125 x mob defense, which we agree on) it is DMG * 3.75 * 1 ~ DMG * 3.75 * 1.05
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:36:32
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
attack vs a mob's defense will cap at 4.125, but the lower and upper rolls will both be 3.75.

That needs to be explained far better on the wiki and on the texts. Attack past qRatio cap raises the floor but doesn't raise ceiling. At attack cap 3.75 not only represents the average but also the high and low values. It's the value I've always used anyway to calculate out stuff.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:38:21
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
attack vs a mob's defense will cap at 4.125, but the lower and upper rolls will both be 3.75.

That needs to be explained far better on the wiki and on the texts. Attack past qRatio cap raises the floor but doesn't raise ceiling. At attack cap 3.75 not only represents the average but also the high and low values. It's the value I've always used anyway to calculate out stuff.
I wasn't disagreeing with it being the "average", just that the way you came to the 3.75 wasn't quite correct. at capped attack lower and upper are both 3.75, which is technically an average of 3.75. It comes into play way more if you're not capped on attack

and some of the info on there is also still outdated, like the part where it mentions if it's higher than 3 set to 3. It should be set to the cap, which in this case is 3.75 or 4.75 for crit
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:41:20
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The floor vs ceiling aspect isn't explained anywhere and anyone who used to calculate out damage back at the 2.0 days would be using the (Attack/Defense) then add/subtract a random value. Doesn't change any of my results, just something to watch out for when not capped attack.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-03-04 13:42:21
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The qRatio section of BG wiki is very outdated; I don't think it's been touched other than a quick edit to upper limits in the first subsection since SE raised the caps, years ago.

The point at which raising attack/defense no longer raises the ceiling is at 3.375, not 3.75 (the qRatio cap).
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 13:46:15
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and the floor goes up until 4.125 which is the effective "cap"

most of the big portions are up to date on the page, though. just some info is confusing since it's left from the old days
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 13:47:34
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And the actual multiplier will never be above 3.75 for regular hits and 4.75 for crits. I treat the 1.05 as separate since it's just kinda bolted on at the end.
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By geigei 2018-03-04 14:08:02
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Tomato tomatoe, bottom line is nothing beats drg penta spam.
[+]
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 20:01:41
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if anyone is bored and wants to test the raetic interaction when you DA + raetic proc and have DA damage, that would be useful information.
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By Darkvlade 2018-03-05 11:46:30
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All these c-ratio, pdiff, qratio stuff got me lost and running for the hills
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-03-05 12:36:26
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Darkvlade said: »
All these c-ratio, pdiff, qratio stuff got me lost and running for the hills


geigei said: »
Tomato tomatoe, bottom line is nothing beats drg penta spam.


Ramuh.Austar said: »
Ratio = Attacker's Attack/ Target's Defense

cRatio = Ratio since there is no level correction these days

Calculate wRatio using your cRatio

If you critical hit: wRatio = (cRatio + 1)
If you do not critical hit: wRatio = (cRatio + 0)

wRatio - 0.375 lower and wRatio + 0.375, 2H qRatio caps at 3.75 for non-crits and 4.75 for crits

Randomly select a value between LL and UL

Multiply the final value by a random number between 1 and 1.05

Odd to find this in a WAR thread, but the TL;DR (LL;UL?) take-away is:
DRG Penta-spam is ideal against tomatoes due to w(yvern)Ratio being c(haracter)Ratio +1 which equals (wtfbb)qRatio.
No need to run for the hills, even if it is a Draconic Tomato. DRG is boss on those too.
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-03-05 14:34:04
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Ha
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