Haste, Dual Wield, And TP/swing

Hi. So, on the ffxiclopedia page for haste, it says that haste does NOT affect TP gain per swing. This seems more or less like common knowledge / common sense.

However, on the wiki page for dual wield, it says that TP per swing is calculated based on your reduced delay, INCLUDING reductions from spell and equipment haste (but not JA haste). In other words, it sounds like if you have some set amount of dual wield, but then further reduce your delay with haste, your TP gain per swing will also be reduced.

This seems like a flat out contradiction of what it says on the page for Haste, so I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this.

Thanks!

haste doesn't affect tp at all

Haste does not affect tp return. Dual wield does.

Your TP is based on the resultant delay after accounting for Dual Wield delay reduction. While haste further reduces the delay, haste does not reduce TP per swing.

think of Dual Wield as decreasing delay and haste as increasing attack speed

Thanks for the replies. Ok, that's exactly what I thought. In that case, does that mean the wiki page for dual wield is just wrong? Here's the quote I'm talking about:

Yeah, it's just wrong. The only thing I can think off of the top of my head that just uses your final delay for calculation is Samba.

I recently changed my outside Abyssea sets from this:


Byakkos augmented with Crit Damage +4% and STP +3

To this in order to take advantage of Patentia Sash


The loss of the STP or the gain of dual wield has reduced tp/hit below 5.

I plan on getting usu feet and legs +1 but in the meantime, outside of abyssea, do you have any advice to get 5/hit back?

Put brutal and suppa back where they should be.

Rajas and Brutal on the left!

ON THE LEFT! D:

Suppa and Rajas go on the left.

I was hoping for a serious answer;;.

Glad to see I've come to the right place!

Koga Hakama +2

If you want to spend some gil (Forgottens are dirt cheap on my server now, dunno about yours), you can just get a Koga Hakama +2 and that'll actually make your bottom set better. Not capped haste, but it's worth it (It'll also make a good evasion piece after you're finished getting the usu+1).

I wouldn't be too concerned about hitting 5 TP/hit. STP isn't very important on one-hander jobs. It's one of those "nice to have, but only if I happen to get it" sort of things.

Yeah I have them. When I saw the Usu +1, I thought I'd just shoot for them and not do the Dual Wield > Haste set. However, Patentia showed up on the AH and I snapped one up.

It's funny, I wanted a 5tp/hit with dual wield and near capped haste. Instead I'll get improved dual wield, less haste, and less tp/hit.

Oh I had 1 other idea. That was to replace qirmiz with another ammo outside of abyssea. I don't use Montenten's sheets so I'm unsure what the net would be.

If you get Usukane Hizayoroi +1 and Usukane Sune-ate +1 use those over Koga legs for low buff situations. If not use koga.

Yeah, bomb core or fire bomblet will generally win for TP VS anything that actually matters outside.

Sorry, I'm new to melee jobs, focused on mages before. But as of my understanding, if you increase your dual wield instead of haste you get basically -stp, so isn't it better to go for haste pieces instead of dual wield (baring haste cap reached). Honestly clueless, so help would be appreciated

Sort of. You get less TP a hit but you swing faster so the idea is that you would reach 100% TP at about the same speed, whereas haste just gives you the attack speed so you raise both your TPing damage and the speed you reach 100% TP. But STP's less important for 1Hs over 2Hs because 1Hs generally have a much higher weight on the TPing portion of the TP/WS ratio.

Usually you want to take dual wield of equal numerical value over haste for Ninja because they have a higher base value for it than other jobs (DNC runs into this pretty often too but their typical gear lets them cap haste regardless). Because dual wield and haste are multiplicative, you can't give a solid "this amount of haste is always better than this amount of DW".

Simple way of thinking of it is that Haste is superior to DW if they both are affecting your attack speed the same amount. Since DW jobs already start at a high base amount though (usually 25%+) DW is often worth more. Simple example, let's say you have 25% DW, and you have a choice between 10% haste or DW in gear. Your attack speed would be:

1 x 0.75 x 0.9 = 0.675 with the haste
1 x 0.65 x 1.0 = 0.65 with the DW

So you'd go faster with the DW gear. Other stats on the gear (STR DEX attack etc) can, and often do, offset this though.

Understood! thank you very much

Does anybody have a formula or calculator to figure out a hit build for ninja then? I would assume the normal store tp calculators used for Sam for example would come out wrong? Or would I just have to calculate out the delay reduction, in which case how would I do that?

Wait, i'm confused.

Why is Koga Hakama +2 better than Iga Hakama +2 ?

Isn't Haste 7% > Dual weild 7% ?

Not to mention Acc + Katana Skill ... ?

What am i missing?

You do indeed reduce tp per swing, but tp per second is not reduced.
IE you might need to hit say 15 to get to 100 tp normally and then 18 after DW increase, but You would still get to 100 tp in the same amount of time (roughly) IE

Say you get to 100 tp in 30 seconds and hit the target 15 times, 6.7 tp a swing.

If you reduce DW by 20% you would hit 18x in the same period but 5.5 tp a swing. More hits, same period, same end tp ~

This means haste is not better than DW strickly speaking, but a certain amount of haste + DW works well. I think there's a chart somewhere to explain when DW is better than haste plus haste has a gear cap of 25.6%, I'm not sure if DW is limited by anything other than gear available as apposed to a Cap. (I know there's a Delay cap but that's very difficult to reach without severe amounts of haste)

Because you gain +2 more Dual Wield using Twilight Belt+Koga Pants +2 over Patentia+Iga +2, you get +7% Haste either way. You also save a nice chunk of gil this way.

This is what I use inside Abyssea atm (I don't play NIN much, but working on Kannagi :p)
ItemSet 44660

Well my question got ignored but I think I figured it out lol

personally I use Oneiros Ring over Rajas for TP, the Triple Attack+2 supplements Thaumas Coat & Eponas Ring nicely and I have maxed MP merits for when I play BLM and SMN so I'm almost always within latent.

Google_is_my_friend
It should have what you are looking for somewhere in there.