The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By acezedock 2019-03-21 17:27:30
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-21 17:38:48
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That parse tells nothing. No idea if the other players were asleep, dead, not engaging quickly (or at all), WSing at good times, using good gear, etc. Parse is useful to find stuff like accuracy, who's pulling the load, comparing to yourself (e.g., repeated tests in same circumstances with different gear), etc. Not to make generalizations of "job X is better than job Y".

I mean, on your boss parse alone there are two DP CORs... and one of them is doing ~57% of the other one's damage. So how is that supposed to be extrapolated to compare NIN to DP COR?

EDIT: not meaning to come across so harsh as to say you're wrong that NIN can be a valuable source of damage in Divergence. I'd agree with you there. But without knowing the actual players, generalizations like "NIN is better than DP COR" based on a Dynamis parse are kinda silly.
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By acezedock 2019-03-21 17:48:20
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Did I say that NIN was better then DP cor?

Was just asking if other people were utilizing NIN I have found at least with my ls runs that I fair better on it.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-21 17:50:48
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You said keeps up with DP COR, and showed your (humblebrag) parse showing yourself above two DP CORs. IDK what I'm supposed to make of that, you're obviously trying to compare yourself to the generally accepted superstar Divergence damage source.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-03-21 18:46:53
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As for the DPS, that's a pretty solid DPS for a run from the NIN. The rest are...fairly below/average. My two best DD's other than me all run around 2k DPS (wave 1+2, depending on lag), they go down for wave 3, and my THF goes up lol.
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By Odin.Nappy 2019-03-21 19:21:45
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I think when people post parses you don't look at the other players. Look at the players total DPS from SB and WS avg from Parse.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-21 20:08:10
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Odin.Nappy said: »
I think when people post parses you don't look at the other players. Look at the players total DPS from SB and WS avg from Parse.

That still doesn't tell the whole story. What buffs did you have, what debuffs were on the mob, were people reapplying Dia/Light Shot quickly, etc. You could have the exact same NIN with the exact same gear getting wildly different DPS and WS avg numbers on different parses, solely down to those kinds of variations. We got no context here, just a cherry-picked parse showing NIN #1... which, great for that NIN, but kinda meaningless to anyone outside of that particular group.

It's especially glaring to see that in the parses where the poster specifically references comparison to DP COR, there are two DP COR with hugely different results (one of which is parsing below a non-DP COR - not that we know WHICH weapon that one was using). Just goes to show that stating job/weapon and DPS numbers for a sample size of a single run from one group is of minimal value for making general observations.

None of this is any argument against the assertion that NIN can be a viable contributor as a Divergence DD. But I don't recall anyone in this topic ever saying otherwise.
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By Odin.Nappy 2019-03-21 20:47:42
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I mean how wouldn't a nin be top of the parse? You have migawari to stop most death attacks. You don't pull hate with all the -emt. If your other DPS cant stay alive what good is their dps? I am a DRK main and for the life of me, I can't stay alive. I had to make an apoc just to stay alike a little longer.

Kinda obvs to see what buffs the cors have. One DP cor doesn't have capped acc so most likely doesn't have bard songs. The non DP cor ws dmg is a good chunk lower so most likely in a melee party doing savage blade. The DP cors are also most likely out soloing stats explaining why their damage is low for the overall run. The story is there if you ask me.

PS: I think the question was does anyone else have good success with nin on wave 3 dyna. Not that nin > all
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By Asura.Devimapie 2019-03-21 20:58:11
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So does anyone else have good success with nin on wave 3 dyna??
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By Afania 2019-03-21 22:28:24
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I've seen NIN parse extremely well in dyna D with savage/chi alternate depending on buffs. So I wouldn't be surprised if nin beats cor on volte.

But on wave 3 boss, based on the SS I think the cor were underbuffed.

Here is the cor ws avg data of last dyna run:

Cor 1:
all ws: 40k avg
Leaden: 65k avg
AE: I forgot...I think it was 16k(?)

Cor 2(me):
All ws: 41k avg
Leaden: 61k avg
AE: 20k avg

Basically if you are cycling bloster/gambit properly leaden would avg way higher than 37k. That being said maybe chi is also underbuffed, So that's not to say X ws is definitely better than Y.
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By Afania 2019-03-21 22:50:40
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
That still doesn't tell the whole story. What buffs did you have, what debuffs were on the mob,

This. COR ws avg will greatly affected by buffs. Having double bloster malaise makes huge difference. Getting gambit makes even bigger difference. Finally if the fight drags on for longer than it should then ws avg lowers.

So ws avg doesn't mean much without showing the video of the run.

I believe Ive seen OP stream their run on nin, so posting the link would be a more valuable data, IMO.
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By Afania 2019-03-21 23:26:39
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Asura.Devimapie said: »
So does anyone else have good success with nin on wave 3 dyna??

Found the nin vid:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/385709314?t=01h20m58s

Nin was 2nd in entire alliance, would say its pretty strong for a job with such a strong defensive benefit.

Nin also didnt AE cleave on adds, AE should add a few more % if used. AE always add 50k-100k dmg per ws to parse when adds pop from my experience.

Chi doesnt seem to beat leaden though.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-03-22 00:35:15
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That's how things normally work in reality. You can spreadsheet and/or zerg and show 30s of absolute absurdity from other jobs and show them be the best DD on the planet, but sometimes surviving content is key, so jobs with survival can keep up doing it. My WAR and DRK friends are basically locked into hybrid sets for wave 3, whereas I keep the hate on the tank and generate less enmity so I'm able to full DD. NIN has both shadows and -enmity from Yonin, they're going to be one of the last to take hate, and won't die the second it flips their way, so it's going to contribute perfectly fine. NIN doesn't have the damage to outright carry a group through content (where some other jobs can in an ideal scenario) but it can hold its own and then some in the current content of the game.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2019-03-22 00:50:54
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
-enmity from Yonin

Innin (Yonin is +), but thats just one part. We get Yain too for -15, then add that to the gear... yay its pretty cool. It actually allows me to solo stuff on nin with Gessho as a tank for speeding up fights not having to recast shadows.
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By Asura.Walpurgisnacht 2019-03-22 01:38:24
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IMO posting wave 1&2 parses is pointless (but it's always nice to see non bandwagon jobs to parse nicely).
Like said before there ARE so many variables regarding those two scenarios (wave 1 +2) that will change your parse very very quickly.
One minute brain afk and not focused will pull other players ahead of you since enemies die within like 2 ws.
As soon as you engage an enemy too late, it will die when you draw your weapons.

But bring more NIN to content, we are in a situation where nearly every job can contribute something to your group/damage. And specially NIN is very nice for Dyna since it has A LOT of tools to survive nasty stuff.

Of course there are jobs that are better and will always be better. But who cares as long as you have fun playing your job and minmax it.
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By mhomho 2019-03-22 03:09:35
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
enmity from Yonin
Comes in to talk all high and mighty, hoity toity to us... Mistakes Yonin for Innin. XD Oh Honor~chan.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-22 10:37:34
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NIN is actually a very useful for many events, including dynamis. People overlook even the very small benefits it brings, because the only thing they care about is spike damage.

For example. in Windy, you're practically immune to Sweep stun. Since Yagudo spam this ability, it will definitely lower the dps of everyone engaged, with the exception of Ninjas due to high shadow count maintenance. This also applies to statues in any zone, whether NM or fodder. Those stomps deal a good bit of damage as well, and may cause a slight panic to your healer. Ninja can keep their DPS consistent (especially during wave1 boss statues) despite the stun spam. They will not pull a lot of hate in the process due to Yain/(Shigi)/Innin, and they lose hate when dodging attacks anyways.

NIN also has access to a very strong Magical WS in Blade: Ei, which can be used exclusively during Wave 1 statues for some consistent damage. Your buffers will likely be using Wizards/Tact/Sam/Malaise, so you benefit from that anyways and take zero damage in the process. They can also chip out some huge MAB nuke numbers (futae) if the group is magic bursting. Another tool in the NIN toolbox oft overlooked.

NIN is damn near immune to "Mijin Gakure osht" moments, due to Migawari. As much as dying to this is unlikely as a group if handled properly, it happens, and it's an additional layer of security NIN never has to worry about. Being able to keep dps consistent even when others around you fall is a huge plus.

In the rare event that NIN does die, it can use the Mijin Gakure trick and remove any weakness, and then get re-buffed to continue dps with very minimal time away from battle. That's a huge benefit vs other jobs IMO.

small (NIN also has access to a very strong paralyze debuff in Blade: Retsu)

The biggest hurdle NIN has is convincing people it's worth a party spot over other a "heavy" dps job. Most people aren't willing to accept that swap, but I've been in groups with DRKs and WARs who cannot for the life of them stay alive, and then brag that they were "winning the parse before they died". NIN is very good in endgame content, you just have to convince someone to take your high survivability~slightly lower dps DD over that omgwtfbbq Shining One SAM. Nothing wrong with the job at all.

And I didn't even get into Blade: Chi spam
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By Asura.Walpurgisnacht 2019-03-22 12:01:53
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The biggest hurdle NIN has is convincing people it's worth a party spot over other a "heavy" dps job. Most people aren't willing to accept that swap, but I've been in groups with DRKs and WARs who cannot for the life of them stay alive, and then brag that they were "winning the parse before they died". NIN is very good in endgame content, you just have to convince someone to take your high survivability~slightly lower dps DD over that omgwtfbbq Shining One SAM. Nothing wrong with the job at all.

And I didn't even get into Blade: Chi spam

Just don't play with those people, separates the good from the "lolIreadthisatffxiahbesttacticever"
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-22 14:04:45
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
NIN is actually a very useful for many events, including dynamis. People overlook even the very small benefits it brings, because the only thing they care about is spike damage.

I'm as big an advocate of using NIN as anyone, but there are some sort of desperate comments in your post trying to justify the job as a DD by citing truly minor perks, when it really doesn't need any justification other than the simple fact that it provides satisfactory damage.

1) ANY dps job can contribute fine in Dynamis, so NIN isn't terribly unique. We have a guy with an excellent DRK always around the top of the heap of melees. When he feels like it, he comes Su5 MNK instead... and it's JUST FINE. NIN isn't in a substantially different position as any other DD job, all of them work.

2) Not necessarily Buukki's comments, but why are so many people having issues with non-NIN DDs apparently dying all the time? This really shouldn't be happening, and is not a function of other jobs being inherently worse suited to Dynamis than NIN. It's really more down to your tanks, healers, and people not using hybrid sets/JAs/subjobs appropriately. NIN is a little easier to just toss up Utsu: San and do your thing, but acting like it's some major task for a DRK/WAR/SAM/??? to survive Dynamis is kinda ridiculous.

3) Statues? Yeah, shadows help mitigate their stomps, but is this really that relevant for any decently composed group? You shouldn't really have statues floating around damaging people. They're taken out quickly with a good magical WS/nuke (if you don't have COR/RNG/BLM 1-shotting them). As for wave 1 boss... I suppose there's some value in NIN meleeing with little fear of interruption from stomp-stun. That being said, this is also not a mob that should be causing major issues without a NIN (with people typically bringing some CORs/RNGs, those jobs can safely shoot from range and demolish the statue with magical WS anyway). NIN potentially giving slightly faster time on this already fast NM is hardly a compelling reason to favor it over any other DD for a Dynamis run.

4) Mijin Gakure?
Quote:
In the rare event that NIN does die, it can use the Mijin Gakure trick and remove any weakness, and then get re-buffed to continue dps with very minimal time away from battle. That's a huge benefit vs other jobs IMO.

I've always found this to be more useful in theory than in practice, due to rebuffs taking time. Asking the COR to re-roll you midway through a roll cycle is not very practical, and you're inevitably going to die after your BRD uses NiTro or SV/CC and miss those "good" songs even if the BRD has time to reapply standard songs just to you. More likely, if the NIN dies others are dead too. So people are going to wait and redo buffs once everyone is back up.

There is some benefit in NIN being unweak and ready to jump back in a little sooner than others, or to let the WHMs Arise others and not waste that more valuable spell on the NIN. And in a situation where the NIN could TANK, it is quite useful to get back up right away and get back to work (which really just needs a couple quick haste buffs to be at near full effectiveness). But as a DPS, I think Mijin weakness wiping ends up having pretty minor impact in most real-world scenarios.


Now, there ARE some more significant NIN benefits. These are probably the things that are better to focus on as true selling points that differentiate NIN a bit, versus the rest of the large pack of perfectly viable melee DDs.

1) Having good hybrid WS options that play nice with buffs people are likely using to boost Leaden/Wildfire/Trueflight. That means NIN can be a good complement to popular COR RNG Dynamis setups.

2) Specific zones have some things that benefit NIN.
- I bring NIN to Sandy a lot just because it's super useful on Halphas. Other events where one part of the run lends itself well to a blink tank (who can act as melee DD in the rest of the event) are a compelling reason to bring a NIN.
- I also like Buukki's point about avoiding Yagudo Sweep in Windy if you're in a melee-heavy group (although, devil's advocate position, you could also have a group pull ranged/magical weak statues and go heavier on the ranged/magical DDs like COR RNG... who can also avoid sweep by fighting at a distance)

3) Nukes DO have some practical use, though I wouldn't say it's for participating in MB-focused setups like Buukki proposed (non-Futae MBs are too weak, and relying on a 3min timer for your "good" nuke is way too few and far between). I have found San nukes pretty helpful when in a group where statues aren't dying as quickly as you might like... take 'em out with your ninjutsu! Plus, Futae will be up on a lot of statue pulls, so I just use it with a free nuke to take a large chunk off of any statue.
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By DaneBlood 2019-03-23 19:27:23
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wuth the T15 augments out there what is considred the 2-3 top weapons of choice combo's for nin today ?
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By Cronnus 2019-03-24 11:48:30
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Can someone help me critique this set for Blade: Chi. Back when I CPing I had someone with Idris Geo and my Chi's were averaging 50k and spiking to 75k and I didn't think to ask them what bubbles they were using. It was a CP party, I don't see why he would have been using magic bubbles. So that's what left me confused.

But this was the set I was using. Thanks guys (Minus the Goko, It was Aeonic/Ochu)
ItemSet 365791
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-24 12:34:22
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Artifact+3 helm should win out since it's a hybrid. There's engraved belt from carbuncle that's better to use, otherwise eschan Stone is an option. and sanctity neck or baetyl pendant is going to be better than fotia I believe. Also think epamanondas is a better option than either dingir or regal, not sure which. Would also scrap moonshade for friomisi
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By SimonSes 2019-03-24 13:07:24
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Herculean body and hands with MAB/macc and WSD. Orpheus's Sash. Generally I have a feeling that some multi attack pieces might be competitive for avg damage, because multi attack proc adds a lot of damage afaik, but I can't really say where I would put them. Possibly brutal earring instead of Ishvara and Epam + Epona as rings.
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-24 14:21:12
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I wouldn't put my money on artifact head. 61 MAB is huge and you're also getting 62 attack. Herculean body/hands at least, maybe legs too because of mab. I have never seen conclusive testing on exactly how hybrid weapon skill damage calculations work. If your assume that the magic damage base is a sum of all physical strikes + magic damage from great than you might be better off with Triple Attack augments over WSD. Fotia is going to add a lot to the first strike but I believe dual wield adds one additional hit and then you can also multi attack. Hard to say for sure unless someone has conclusive hybrid ws data.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-24 14:50:25
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This is the ongoing hybrid debate nobody truly knows. There is a physical and magical component, and the argument is while the MAB is huge for the magical part, will do nothing (?im assuming) for the physical portion, whereas WSD would affect both parts.

Asura.Snapster said: »
you might be better off with Triple Attack augments over WSD

After reading Simon's comment, I was just about to comment this. If MA is as potent as people are saying it is for hybrids, why not just rock the full mab/ta build and leave wsd out of it? Wouldn't you average out higher due to frequent MA procs?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-03-24 15:02:12
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iirc WSD gets counted (at least) twice, is why it gets used.

Like you do a 10k physical hit +10% then you do the magical hit 11k +MAB +10%... so 10% WSD ends up worth like 22% or something like that.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-24 15:44:31
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I know that part. My question is, does that piece of logic also apply to multi-attack?

i.e. you wse, but triple attack the first hit. Does the phys+magical part both get the triple proc, or is it just the physical part that triple attacks? It's only one ws, so I assume you'd triple the entire first-hit's damage (being both magical and physical). Most Blade: Chi sets are devoid of MA, and we've seen in the past how good stuff like Fighter's roll is for it.
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2019-03-24 15:50:50
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I wouldn't think MA would work on magical hits of a WS, it doesn't work on any other magic damage type does it?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-03-24 15:53:54
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Every multi attack get's double counted too. the magical hit mimics the total damage of the physical hits. so if you TA the physical you get the TA counted on the magic but the magical hit can't multi on it's own.

If i understand it right.

WSD and MA are both incredibly powerful on a hybrid, which is better and why/when, is going to very.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-24 16:21:33
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Ragnarok.Blindphleb said: »
I wouldn't think MA would work on magical hits of a WS, it doesn't work on any other magic damage type does it?

That's the thing. It's NOT a magical WS. it's a hybrid. If you use it for Omen, the game counts it towards the "physical damage" objective, and physical attack bonuses DO affect it's damage. It's one ws with two portions, so a multi-attack has to affect both parts because the ws does not differentiate either, unless the monster uses something like sforzo or invincible (then the type of ja will determine which part of the ws is resisted).
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