The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2019-03-13
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-03-16 06:00:42
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Sorry for being late but I personally agree with everything that's been said.

Sange is unquestionably a boost in NIN DPS and it's technically NIN's only DPS cooldown.
It's small, sure, but it's a DPS boost, period.

Its only con is the fact that it's annoying, takes inventory space for the ammo and whatever else, but it's an useful JA and one of the few native JAs that can boost NIN's DPS, period.


I love nuking and have a pretty hardcore set for that, but it's incredibly nichey and frankly not sure I'd say worth it. Can't say the same for Sange, it works pretty much everywhere.
 
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 Ragnarok.Haxetc
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By Ragnarok.Haxetc 2019-03-16 07:21:58
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I haven't had any trouble beating r15 heishi using ten with r15 kikoku. It seems it's always my white damage that's the big difference.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-03-16 17:35:29
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Walp my set is almost identical. I use Hattori Hands only for Futae though.
Oh and no Shiva+1.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-16 17:43:26
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I haven't seen any evidence to conclude that any burst+augments on Herculean gloves outperform the elemental bonus from empy+1 hands. Maybe I missed it, but that standard 14% looks like it would beat any mbb hands (unless you have dm augment) for all nukes, mb included.

For free nukes my set is exactly the same and I use donar for raitons.
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By Fayona 2019-03-17 12:39:44
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Has anyone given any thought to the Ambu GK for nin? I was thinking it could be fun for messing around with on things like Tenzen VD spam. Just curious if anyone’s tried and it and what kind of results they’ve gotten.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-17 14:08:13
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Tachi ageha and swap
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By Nariont 2019-03-17 15:56:25
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I haven't seen any evidence to conclude that any burst+augments on Herculean gloves outperform the elemental bonus from empy+1 hands. Maybe I missed it, but that standard 14% looks like it would beat any mbb hands (unless you have dm augment) for all nukes, mb included.

For free nukes my set is exactly the same and I use donar for raitons.


https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Ninjutsu#Equipment_Bonuses

Has ninjutsu dmg + listed as just plain mab+ not actual %'s so assuming that is correct any decent pair of mab gloves should beat emp+1 outside of futae
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2019-03-18 10:13:26
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
More katana testing against Gokotai this morning:
If you have a rank zero kikoku or nagi, save your detritus for something else, seriously.

The lowest regain of 36/tick even in a maxhaste situation pulled the ambu katana ahead of a rank 0 AG Nagi by 5-10%.

The only case where the Nagi edged ahead like 5% was in a zero buff situation with am3 kept up and blade: hi spamming same as Gokotai.
Nagi AM3 OaX was giving enough tp+ws frequency to pull it ahead of my 76 regain Gokutai no buff tp set, but again this is a zero buff scenario.

On apex bats and crabs for a couple hours I couldnt really see the difference between Blade: Hi spam with Gokotai compared to Rank 1 Kikoku spamming Metsu. This was the most suprising thing to me and i'm having a hard time justifying putting detritus into my kikoku.
For someone that rarely plays ninja or has better things to use detritus on, or a new ninja, making an ambu katana and calling it good enough is the way to go.

Anyone have heishi katana and ambu one to compare?
I think aeonic is the only one that easily pulls significantly ahead.
So as a new ninja, metsu isn't bestu? Now what relic am I supposed to build?
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By SimonSes 2019-03-18 10:28:53
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Nariont said: »
Has ninjutsu dmg + listed as just plain mab+ not actual %'s so assuming that is correct any decent pair of mab gloves should beat emp+1 outside of futae

Common sense tells me its probably not accurate. Also testing that is so easy.
 Ragnarok.Haxetc
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By Ragnarok.Haxetc 2019-03-18 11:29:44
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I find it hard to believe the ambu katana spamming hi of all weaponskills is pulling ahead of kikoku using metsu. The difference between r0 and r15 is huge for relics. As I've said before I have yet to see any situation kikoku gets beat mainly off pure white damage. Even if ten is bearing metsu, it doesn't make up for the white damage you get using kikoku.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-03-18 12:04:50
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If you download the current spreadsheet it's loaded with a situation currently.

Target Apex Bat; Avg cRatio for Kikoku 1.88 and 1.74 for Heishi. Hardly anywhere near cap so I'm getting full use of the Attack bonus on Kikoku.

The average amount of extra white damage during a round of TP gain is only a little over 125 extra damage.



The nice thing about Kikoku is the R15 Augment that makes Metsu tons better than it ever was.

Once you start pushing both sets towards a capped pDIF you'll see Heishi walk away with things. When the delta of base tp rnds and tp time grow slightly, the WS that uses TP more effectively starts to win. And the slight difference from white damage gets dwarfed by the larger numbers from WS.

At least... that I've found.
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-18 12:11:24
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Ten isn't always the best choice for Heishi. Shun is better if you're in the right part of the cRatio curve. I find this to be quite common.

I'll probably make the dagger when I get some time in a few weeks. I think it would make a great offhand and possibly mainhand as well. It's stupid that Evisceration has the potential to be Ninja's best weaponskill. The job needs serious DPS adjustments. It's about where MNK was before it got buffed.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-03-18 12:25:25
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You're absolutely right Snaps, I left it as Blade: ten to keep the framing of the assessment familiar.
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 Asura.Snapster
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-18 13:00:56
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Alright. It's good to give people clear comparisons but they should also fit in line with being good advice. Blade: Ten is best in some circumstances but more commonly you'll want to use Blade: Shun.

I see all 4 RMEA has having some value. Kannagi is best when you're cRatio is pitifully low and the affects of adding +1.0 to your pDIF during Blade: Hi critical hits is most significant. Shun Heishi overcomes Kannagi as your cRatio rises as the attack bonus is essentially a cRatio multiplier. This is eventually overcome by Heishi Ten when your attack is high enough to allow the fTP on Ten scaling to trump Shun's attack bonus. Kikoku will compete mostly with Heishi. It also has an attack bonus and is a single hit WS where you can stack on WSD gear. Ten also loses a value in any situation where skillchain damage can affect the outcome (most). Nagi is good if you want +40 enmity.

In regards to the new katana, I think it might be best for many circumstances. The regain is being undervalued. Walking around and idling is a huge part of XI and a spreadsheet won't model this. Hybrid weaponskills can do much more damage than physical weaponskills and can one shot a lot of mobs. Metsu/Shun/Ten/Hi damage pale in comparison if you're buffed for those. Being able to open a fight with a huge Blade: Chi or whatever is going to give you a strong lead, especially in content like Dynamis or Omen where you're killing mostly trash mobs.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-03-19 07:51:53
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Bg-wiki isn't saying, so anyone know if the Empy head/legs (DA on Innin, Counter on Yonin, respectively) work during activation, or only when they're equipped for TPing?
 
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 Bismarck.Gippali
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2019-03-19 08:16:02
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Head must be worn to receive the effect. Haven't tested the legs, assuming it works the same way though.
 Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
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By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2019-03-19 08:19:50
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Bg-wiki isn't saying, so anyone know if the Empy head/legs (DA on Innin, Counter on Yonin, respectively) work during activation, or only when they're equipped for TPing?

I recall them being tested when empy reforge was introduced, and the consensus was that you had to wear them for the benefit. No time to go digging through bg forums, but I'm sure that's where it was.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-03-19 08:56:26
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Pretty confident it's like Orestes said and the same apply to the head, for Innin though.
You can equip those 2 pieces whenver, not necessarily on activation, but you need to keep them up for the duration of the JA if you want to get access to the respective benefits.

Legs have been for a long time one of the best accuracy options btw. No longer the case but it's still decent.
Gonna be likely back on BiS for accuracy whenever a +2/+3 version comes out.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-19 09:58:26
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I could have sworn I posted a Yonin Counter build a while ago with those legs in the set, but don't see it in my item sets. I came into the NIN job after the empyrean days, so I don't recall if the counter proc can check through shadows (like Tactical Parry gifts) or if you must deplete your active shadows (hit must land) in order to activate the counter. I would assume from a NIN perspective, you could just counter through shadows and fulltime those legs when tanking something that rips through shadows for that extra layer of security.
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By Cronnus 2019-03-19 12:42:11
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Asura.Snapster said: »
Alright. It's good to give people clear comparisons but they should also fit in line with being good advice. Blade: Ten is best in some circumstances but more commonly you'll want to use Blade: Shun.

I see all 4 RMEA has having some value. Kannagi is best when you're cRatio is pitifully low and the affects of adding +1.0 to your pDIF during Blade: Hi critical hits is most significant. Shun Heishi overcomes Kannagi as your cRatio rises as the attack bonus is essentially a cRatio multiplier. This is eventually overcome by Heishi Ten when your attack is high enough to allow the fTP on Ten scaling to trump Shun's attack bonus. Kikoku will compete mostly with Heishi. It also has an attack bonus and is a single hit WS where you can stack on WSD gear. Ten also loses a value in any situation where skillchain damage can affect the outcome (most). Nagi is good if you want +40 enmity.

In regards to the new katana, I think it might be best for many circumstances. The regain is being undervalued. Walking around and idling is a huge part of XI and a spreadsheet won't model this. Hybrid weaponskills can do much more damage than physical weaponskills and can one shot a lot of mobs. Metsu/Shun/Ten/Hi damage pale in comparison if you're buffed for those. Being able to open a fight with a huge Blade: Chi or whatever is going to give you a strong lead, especially in content like Dynamis or Omen where you're killing mostly trash mobs.

This is what I was saying about the new Kantana. It's got to be best in slot for Chi. I haven't got to test it yet. But I remember doing a CP party with a idris geo and it spiking to 55k average and 70k spikes. Granted these numbers wont ever be seen on NMs. But I'd love to try it again some day. I got one mainly for the lock style lol.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-03-19 15:09:49
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So may I ask, is Gokotai/Tauret BIS offhand for *all things ninja rolled into one* without buying a Fudo?
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-19 15:20:18
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You could make a case for Heishi being BiS for hybrid and magic weaponskills as the 500 TP Bonus will add value there. It would come down to circumstance. Ideally you would want to have both available. I think that for any aspiring Ninja, I would recommend Heishi, Kikoku and Gokotai. Kannagi is fairly niche, I don't think you'll often find yourself in a situation where it will provide more value than one of those three.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2019-03-20 22:55:32
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Finished Gokotai (nin doesnt have rema on new char). I assume taka would be best offhand since we are basically spamming Hi with it?
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-21 01:28:09
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Asura.Snapster said: »
I see all 4 RMEA has having some value. Kannagi is best when you're cRatio is pitifully low and the affects of adding +1.0 to your pDIF during Blade: Hi critical hits is most significant.

Also worth noting that Kannagi is by far the best white damage, which can come in handy at times (for instance, holding TP a lot due to not being part of the main COR-oriented SC in Divergence alliance?), and plays nice with all the strong crit gear we have (e.g., Kendatsuba+1). Buffs also don't have to be THAT bad for it to perform very well. I know everyone assumes perfect world of COR+GEO+BRD offensive buffs always, but this is certainly a YMMV thing. Kannagi really shines when you have a single (player) buffer in a party, or another practical example - pretty much any time you're doing anything with trust buffs.

I'm not gonna get deep into yet another Kannagi-war in this topic, but I'll say I think it's an underrated weapon - I can agree that it's not necessarily the first recommendation I'd give an up-and-coming NIN to go for though.

Quote:
Shun Heishi overcomes Kannagi as your cRatio rises as the attack bonus is essentially a cRatio multiplier. This is eventually overcome by Heishi Ten when your attack is high enough to allow the fTP on Ten scaling to trump Shun's attack bonus.

Agreed.

Quote:
Kikoku will compete mostly with Heishi.

With the major caveat that this very much depends on Kikoku having augments, and it falls well behind if not. So, kinda depends on whether the aspiring Ninja is also in a position to unlock 119 Relic weapon augments and willing to pay the significant cost to get the weapon to R15 (or at the very least, R10+ before it starts becoming competitive).

Quote:
Nagi is good if you want +40 enmity.

Eh... second place, maybe? If you're looking for best overall enmity/tanking mainhand, Fudo Masamune C and its variable Enmity+ and significant ninjutsu recast reduction (paired with Yonin's major boost to Utsusemi enmity generation) is pretty much always going to be the better overall enmity choice. Aside from enmity, you also get faster Utsu/Migawari from a purely survival-focused standpoint (pretty vital for blink tanking, no?). Oh, and Fudo also comes with significantly stronger offense.

I think Nagi is only really for free Reraise Mijin Gakure piece and a sweet looking lockstyle.

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In regards to the new katana, I think it might be best for many circumstances. The regain is being undervalued. Walking around and idling is a huge part of XI and a spreadsheet won't model this.

While you're not wrong that idle regain isn't modeled on a spreadsheet, you need to ask yourself whether you're using NIN in events with serious downtime between mobs. I think calling idling a "huge part" of XI is a bit of an exaggeration if you're talking about actual in-event time. Current battle content:

Divergence? Idle time between wave 1-2 mobs should be very minimal. Maybe wave 3 you get some slight delay moving between Volte clusters, but those seconds of idle regain for one somewhat stronger WS on the first of 8 mobs per set is surely not going to make up the difference between otherwise stronger RMEA.

Omen? Any idle time in Omen is only spent waiting to fight trash mobs that die in a flash regardless of using RMEA and no idle regain, or Ambuscade katana and idle regain. Meh.

Ambuscade? Maybe the best case for the regain, since you may get a decent chunk of TP while waiting on buffs. I'm skeptical that outweighs stronger RMEA, but it's a benefit. During the actual fight, you shouldn't have idle time.

Asura.Azagarth said: »
Finished Gokotai (nin doesnt have rema on new char). I assume taka would be best offhand since we are basically spamming Hi with it?

You'd probably only want to spam Hi with a Gokotai if you were after easy 2-step self Darkness SCs. Aside from Light via Shun-Kamu (which uses Blade: Kamu, so... gross), that's your only solo katana 2-step Lv3 Skillchain that doesn't require Relic or Aeonic.

For Gokotai, if you aren't trying for Darkness, you're likely better off using Shun as your standard physical WS. Ku with the katana enhancement might also be worth a closer look, I'd be interested in how it compares to Shun in terms of straight up WS damage. Since neither one chains with itself, Shun-Ku (Distortion) is a reasonable self-SC option.

Hybrid WS like Chi can perform well IF you're getting strong magical buffs... but that's a very big "if" for many situations. I'd agree with Snapster that Aeonic TP Bonus may do more for hybrids, but the Ambuscade katana still should do pretty well.

But yeah, as for offhands to a Gokotai:
- Kanaria is a good all around choice, shoot for TA+3/Attribute augments (prob DEX>STR>AGI)and whatever DMG/Acc/Atk/Racc you can manage
- Ochu is also pretty solid all-around option
- Taka is good if you're focused on Hi, but otherwise falls behind
- Tauret might be an interesting offhand toy, but low native dagger skill means it's for content with lower acc requirements
- Fudo Masamune is a nice high acc/racc/ratk offhand option that should be BiS offhand situationally, though I would assume that most people with Ambuscade katana mainhand and no RMEA are probably less interested in paying for it. The Su4 version (Mochizuki) performs a similar role though, and would be a good acc-focused choice on a lower budget (plus, as noted above, could double as a nice tanking mainhand on path C with all of the same benefits of the Fudo Masamune).
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-03-21 02:40:57
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Why are you not considering Kaja Katana as offand?

Also not sure why you're all talking about idle for Gokotai's regain. Does it work only if you're not engaged?
Because if that's not the case you would get regain even while fighting, not only in the time between fights which, as you noticed, it's a cool icing on the cake but it would only boost a single WS at the start of a new pull, so while cool it's not really a big deal.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-03-21 04:49:24
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Mostly irrelevant to me (as I'd just be going THF) but the Ambu Katana actually could be really nice for Erinys having a stupidly high regain NIN open darkness for Rudra's.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-03-21 14:52:16
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Why are you not considering Kaja Katana as offand?

I keep forgetting you can do both, but yeah - good call!

Quote:
Also not sure why you're all talking about idle for Gokotai's regain. Does it work only if you're not engaged?

Good point, and I assume it works when engaged (?? - someone would have to confirm). However, the impact of DW:Regain will obviously be lessened when you're receiving adequate buffs (since you won't be using much DW gear). DW from trait alone is something worth considering though.

I also wasn't focused too much on the engaged aspect because the discussion was more about idle regain not being modeled well via spreadsheet. Engaged regain can be modeled just fine, so there's no reason it would be "undervalued" as Snapster suggested.

An aside... in a way, it almost feel like this has some elements of a design decision to address the age old problem of excess DW hurting STP. Why not give some Regain to actually make the extra DW a net positive? Kinda clever, if you look at it that way.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical it outweighs the benefits of Heishi/Kikoku/Kannagi in the VAST majority of situations (though there are some quirky uses, like Ladyofhonor's good example). Extremely nice option for those who don't want to invest in RMEA though.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-03-21 17:19:56
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I'm skeptic myself tbf, but would be good to see more tests about it.
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