Follow-up On Relic, Mythic, And Empyrean Weapons

It kind of bothers me that SE never says *how* such changes would overpower or imbalance the game. Ever. They just say they have some reason and won't do it.

Somehow, that kind of horseshit is okay for the JP playerbase. nipponftw

That's exactly the point I made. When it comes to player tests, you get all the maths that points out the boons and flaws of a set up, and occasionally that brings up situations where it might be better than something else despite any negatives. With SE we just get the "In the name of all that is Balance, not on your nelly" kind of crap with absolutely zero reasoning.

I am somewhat confused by the reaction of the player base to this post by SE.
Why should newer jobs get relics? Why should newer jobs get Empyreans? Why should older jobs get added to current relics?

I ain't even going to say the dreaded "B" word, because its not really a matter of that.
Now before you think I am some guy here just to try and ruin everyone's day, I have played this game for a long time and I can really see SE's point of view on this.

1) People say COR should get Relic Gun, BLU should get Excalibur DNC should use Mandau.

I don't understand this argument for a number of reasons. Back in the days before Aht Urhgan, the game was centered around those jobs that could get a relic, and you could create those relics through dynamis, which only included weapons for those jobs.
Noticed how they never added any extra jobs for the monsters in Dynamis? You don't see COR, BLU, DNC mobs in Dynamis, because that was at a time where they did not exist.

They added Relic gear to Dynamis as (at the time) Dynamis was still being done in large groups, and it was a good way to implement them. Personally I felt it was lazy of them to do this, as Dynamis was never intended to drop those items, but they adjusted the drop rate.

What they COULD have done, is make Mythic armour, which were extremely similar to Relic, but only dropped in Salvage or something gay like that, instead they just added them to an endgame event which bigger groups tended to do on a regular basis.
The newer jobs received different treatment though, they didn't get added to Maat(They got their own versions of G5), quests were done in Aht Urhgan or WOTG and aside from the relic armour, they were only allowed to gain Mythic Weapons and such. If they were going to be allowed to use Relic Weapons, they would have added it at the same time as adding Relic armours.

Because people complained about how difficult it was to obtain Mythic Weapons for these new jobs, SE decided to bring out Abyssea, and add all the current jobs to Empyrean Weapons. A lot of these weapons are pretty dam good, specially for those newer jobs. I mean come on, how easy it is to get an Armageddon or an Almace, compared to some of the others? (Compare getting an Ukonvasara and a Vere to getting an Armageddon and Almace)

What confuses the hell out of me, is that people complain so much about Cor not being able to use Relic Gun... But then they go on to say that COR couldn't use most of the bullets anyway? Now I am not a Ranger (But I am a Corsair) and I would much rather spend my time getting an Armageddon then building a full on relic for it, specially if the Empyrean is going to be better, so what would be the point? The gun relic was always there as Rangers exclusive relic gun, well before Corsair was even thought of.

Now think about Dancer, if they were allowed to use Mandau, then all those true THF players out there with a level 90-99 Mandau, could level DNC up and automatically have Mandau, and never have reason to build a Twashtar or anything else that DNCs generally use. It would effect Twashtar considerably(I know its not the greatest dagger out there but some people like it) and no one with the resources would ever have a reason to build one.

Excalibur is a weapon which has been used over many Final Fantasy games, and it is never ever been used by a Blue Mage. Its always been used by a Paladin or a Red Mage. Just like some shields get PLD/DRK (even though DRK gets no shield skill), SE keeps up the history of weapons like these by not adding jobs which were never able to use it. I am no sword expert, but can you imagine if BLU's could dual wield Almace and Excalibur? That just doesn't sound right to me.

2) If some jobs would get added to certain relics, then other jobs with slightly lower grades would need to be added too.

Its called favoritism, and when you start adding one job to a relic or empyrean, other people will complain and say, "Why can't this job be added too???" It starts a lethal chain reaction which will end up where all jobs who can skill a weapon and build a relic for it. Below is an example.

-Dancer (B+ Grade Dagger) gets added to Mandau.
-Puppetmaster (B+ Grade H2H) gets added to Spharai
-Warrior (B Grade sword) gets added to Excalibur and Almace (RDM also gets B Grade)
-Warrior (B+ Grade GS) gets added to Caladbolg (PLD only has B Grade in GS)
-Warrior (A- Grade Axe) gets added to Guttler (BST also gets A- Grade)
-Warrior (B+ Grade Scythe) gets added to Apocalypse and Redemption (DRK gets A+ but RDM -has a relic sword with a B Rank so why cant WAR get relic and empy Scythe at B+?)
-Paladin (A- Grade Club) gets added to Mjollnir and Gambanteinn (WHM gets B+ grade)
-Paladin (A- Grade Staff) gets added to Claustrum and Hvergelmir (SMN B grade, BLM B- SCH C+ so maybe White Mages would complain they can't get Staves too as WHM also has C+ skill)
-Ninja should get a Throwing Relic as they are A- Skill, while Dancer gets nothing as its only C+

You see how it gets confusing? Because some jobs have low skill on a weapon, but are still able to use a Relic/Empyrean although another job with the same or higher skill is not allowed too. This is due to the job already having a specifc "Ultimate" weapon and to put those jobs onto other weapons it will make some of the relics/empyreans completely obsolete.

Warrior is a job that can use all weapons well, does that mean it should be able to use Empy GS, Relic/Empy Sword and Scythes? NO! What would be the point? Ragnarok makes all of those obsolete.

3) Adding new jobs onto Relics/Empyreans

Like SE said, adding these new jobs onto old gear isn't easy to do. For one thing, SE might want to create completely new weapons that actually look like they belong on the job. If SE wants to create their own Great Sword exclusive to Rune Fencer, then what would be the point added a Relic to it? Either the brand new weapon will be too weak and won't get made, or they wasted time adding Rune Fencer to the Relic.

Also think about it, someone has a level 99 Ragnarok, they level Rune Fencer to 99... then BANG! Super powerful Rune Fencer already, and you already did the work for the relic, so there is no need to make anything else now.

Square Enix want to add brand new weapons and gear, and put these into brand new events in the Seekers of Adoulin expansion, so just like previous jobs in the game, you work hard to complete things in the particular expansions area to make the job good. Otherwise what would be the point in adding a new expansion??? They might as well just add the new jobs and not bring out any new gear.

Can anyone clarify why Dancer should get Mandau?? I mean.. don't Dancer already have some great daggers already? Why should they get Mandau too?? Why should Rune Fencer get Ragnarok and Caladbolg?? Why can't we just allow SE to bring out new Seekers of Adoulin gear specific for these new jobs??

I have rambled long enough, I would be interested to see how people could justify their opinions, with some proper facts.

I think they should consider putting Runic Fencer on the Empyrean greatsword, and they need to put geomancer on at least one magian weapon.

The reason being is every job is on a magian weapon, and even if Calabolg makes Runic master too strong, that is the way its suppose to work. Why would anyone want to play either of the newest jobs if they are not good compared to current ones? When square enix made blue mage it was amazing, and it was on par with dealing damage as quickly as black mage.

On another note, Geomancer will be using bells and I assume bells will be simular to a bard's instruments. Thus, I think they should make a empyrean bell for Geomancer to use. Because these jobs need gear that originates from abyssea. Obviously, these jobs should also have empyrean armor sets originating from abyssea, they should get artifact armor (which can come from any quest line) and they should have relic armor that comes from Dynamis.

Honestly with this message I think square enix doesn't want to go through remaking new pieces of gear for these two new jobs in those areas. I don't think it is right and I think the newest producer Akihiko Matsui is to blame.

The reason why I think both jobs should be added to empyrean weapons, is because currently each job has a magian trial weapon they can make, and denying them of that quest line is the same of denying them in any other content of the game and this to me says you want the game to be more like World of Warcraft and that you want all the players to play the latest expansion. I can understand the second part, however the first part makes me upset. Final Fantasy XI has almost never outdated its old content and even then it has constantly updated it and that is a part of what I love about the game. If you take that away your making the game more similar to world of warcraft, and I will probably find a different game to absorb my time

Magian trial weapons is essentially a free weapon for a lv75+ player that would want to dedicate time into a given job, and they share the same quest line as empyrean weapons so, if your denying the latest jobs a empyrean weapon then you'll also be denying them access to trial of magians weapons.

In conclusion, I can agree with not having Runic knight and Geomancer on relic weapons however; they should be placed on a empyrean weapon each and, they should be given their own line of Relic, Empyrean and artifact armor.

I think it would be common sense for SE not to add the new jobs to older content, so players spend more time playing the new expansion. Whats the point in bringing out an expansion if your going to have people work on gear thats in 2+ year old content like Abyssea?

Also if they were to add brand new Empyreans for the new jobs, then Abyssea would need an update, they would need to create new NMs, new pop items, new Empyrean armour as well, with seals and +2 items specific to the new job. Basically they would need to expand Abyssea even more just to accommodate for that, and I think they would rather spend time adding new content instead of expanding old content. Isn't that what the playerbase wanted anyway, new content???

I love how people scream at SE and then wonder why SE doesn't listen. I would also disregard the opinions of those who WHINE CONSTANTLY. They're probably so sick of it that they don't listen to any ideas, even if they're good ones. No matter how much they started catering to the whims of the community that plays the game, someone is going to complain. Also more to the point, it's their game and they can do w/e they want with it. Including making it so horrid everyone quits.

I am not saying that I'm happy with the way things are- I work so much that even just getting any weapon is a long process for me. Relic is easier by comparison, because I can cruor farm>gil>buy currency from people who have time to do Dynamis. It ends up being more time efficient, especially with the constantly dropping prices in currency these days. But the thought of doing that for all of my jobs makes the game a little less fun, I will admit!

Ok SE I have finally had enough. I’m quitting……… I didn’t mean it. Please take me back. I miss you all ready!!!

The game is broken - get over it :P

well that is the ways of world of worldcraft, as soon as one or two years passes that old armor is useless and you might as well as throw it away. however; in final fantasy you keep lots of different pieces of armor to macro in, or you find someway to use it to level another job. Such as, on thief I have a Trick attack set (agi+) that I carry to enhance it, I carry a sneak attack attack set (dex+) to enhance it, and I carry general auto attack and Weapon skill sets.

Not only that but I have all kinds of armor I have on the storage NPC that I keep, from level 30 to level 40 to level 60 armor, and yet I don't know if I will ever use these armor sets again I would like to think that I can someday I might be able to and get experience points outside of abyssea in a traditional way like I used to.

in response to: "whats the point?"
The point of adding new content to old is you have more variety to choose from, and you have different ways to build up gear. The player chooses where he/she wants to get gear and not the game. The point is we have a quality game, not a game that says you have to do the new expansion because the best armor comes from it but, the best armor varies based on a persons level, job, race and play style.

The point of a new expansion is to show us somewhere new where we haven't been and to be excited with what we might see and what adventures we will have there. The problem was that the Ps2 couldn't handle more zones and thus all we could get is rehashes of current ones.



they could simply have more current NMs drop 1 more seal each of a different job, not necessarily the new ones but, also include the new ones in certain NMs, include the lv89 abyssea Job selection weapons and just make it easier to get empyrean armors so it wouldn't take so long.

Maybe, make it to where certain abyssea quests always give you a seal, that way players could get in and out and onto the new expansion. Even with the current state of abyssea, you can't pull in everyone into the new expansion without completely destroying the old one as it is group dependent and I would think it would need to be adjusted accordingly and you really wouldn't want a runic knight in perle armor in your new missions and quests party, when decent armor might be important. Ultimately, it just makes sense to want to be geared for the latest and the greatest. Otherwise I know the player base will discriminate against those who don't have the neo nyzul armor.

The problem is we have a lot of players cheating in the game at the moment to obtain neo nyzul armor and last time this happened square enix did a huge ban. Almost every server had at least 500 players that got banned because they were duplicating armor and it cost the game a huge amount revenue. what they should have done and what they should do is return a character to how it was a year or two ago. This is essentially "rewinding" and I think its the best way to handle this problem. I have a friend who played everquest and was caught cheating and they basically a game master banned him for a month and rewinded his character for 3 months and I think it makes sense to handle it this way.

"These new weapons will be designed around their respective jobs"


brb going to melee on blm with claustrum.

This may be useful:

Level 99 "Super Weapon" Damage Comparisons

Dagger: Dancer versus Thief:
Thf Mythic: Vajra 53
Dnc Mythic :Terpsichore 53
Dnc/Thf Empy: Twashtar 55
Thf-only Relic: Mandau 55

Sword: Blue Mage versus Red Mage and Paladin:
Rdm Mythic: Murgleis 65
Pld Mythic: Burtgang 73
Blu Mythic: Tizona 66
Rdm/Pld/Blu Empy: Almace 70
Rdm/Pld-only Relic: Excalibur 73

Staff: Scholar versus Black Mage and Summoner:
Blm Mythic: Laevateinn 104
Smn Mythic: Nirvana 104
Sch Mythic: Tupsimati 104
Blm/Smn/Sch Empy: Hvergelmir 113
Blm/Smn-only Relic: Claustrum 113

Gun: Corsair versus Ranger:
Rng Mythic: Gastraphetes 80
Cor Mythic: Death Penalty 64
Rng/Cor Empy: Armageddon 76
Rng-only Relic: Annihilator 76

Hand-to-Hand: Puppetmaster versus Monk:
Mnk Mythic: Glanzfaust 51
Pup Mythic: Kenkonken 41
Mnk/Pup Empy: Verethragna 42
Mnk-only Relic: Spharai 52

Okay, two things should stand out to everyone. First, the damage difference between Gastraphetes and Death Penalty is significant (14), but this is ameliorated on Armageddon, a weapon usable by both Ranger and Corsair at a damage rating equal to that of Annihilator. Second, and more interestingly, is the difference in base damage between Glanzfaust 51 and Kenkonken 41. On Verethragna, the damage is 42, only 1 point higher than Verethragna. Compare any of these to Spharai, and you see a significant reduction in damage rating when you compare the Relic to the Mythic or Empyrean weapons. This should tell you something about the way that the development team is thinking about "balance." To them, "balance" is about making sure that Puppetmaster doesn't have access to a damage rating comparable to the highest damage weapon available to Monk. There are two fixes available here which I have discussed before among my friends. Either they give Spharai a latent effect of DMG 43 or 44 if your main job is Puppetmaster (two points higher than Kenkonken because it is a Relic, after all), or make the lower latent damage rating contingent on whether or not you have an automaton activated. I'd prefer the latter. Or, if they do not want to add Puppetmaster to this weapon because it would possibly mar the aesthetic appearance of the text on the weapon (a stupid reason, I know) or more importantly they would worry about Puppetmaster getting that counter bonus from Spharai, then they could easily add a new relic more relevant to Puppetmaster: a Relic Animator. The Relic Animator could, for instance, cause the Automaton to have access to it's own version of a relic weapon appropriate for the frame, thus improving Puppetmaster in a way analogous to how another latecomer to Dynamis, Aegis, improved upon Paladin without unbalancing the game.

There is also the problem that no matter what you do to "overpower" the job, Puppetmaster isn't really welcome to most end-game events anyway. Pet jobs are a hazard in Voidwatch, Puppetmaster likely wouldn't be attractive to most people as a top-tier damage dealer in Neo-Nyzul, and I don't recall Puppetmaster being particularly necessary in Abyssea for procs, ever, because they aren't.

Edit: Added Sword.

wasn't useful

I know, right?

yup

As far as pup goes, I'd honestly just consider myself lucky that the job is on Verethragna, and call it at that.

Puppetmaster doesn't need Spharai, not really. If SE'd make mythic weapons a realistic in-game goal instead of a lifetime achievement, pup wouldn't really need Vere either... Kenkonken bring a lot more to the table on the things that pup is good at, since they have buffs for both master and auto.

Giant rant, here's the gist. No not all of those jobs should reasonably get added to relics just because of skill. You are right in some parts. It is lore. Excal especially. I think dnc should get Mandau however, because the empy knife sucks, and their mythic is flawed. I think when they made them, they had level 75 in mind still. Doesn't the "steps" bonus stop really being affective after the lvl 85 version? Let alone using presto. Correct me if I'm wrong on that people. As far as Rune Fencer being on Gswords: yes. They said it was going to be rune fencer's "main" weapon. I'm imagining SE is going to make them the first A+ job for Gsword skill. I sure hope so anyways. Now wouldn't you be angry if you didn't have a hefty end-game weapon for your A+ skill? Don't give me this "throwing relic" crap either. We've literally never had throwing WSs so that's not even remotely poignant.

Edit: though in that same regard I can see why Rune SHOULDN'T get Ragnarok. Lore. There were no mention of rune fencers in the hydra corps, so it's understandable. If they do get shafted from all ToM/Relic/mythic (i think they said that was a definite no on "mythic" but they used the term mythic as a general "job specific weapon"), they better make a damn good replacement for rune fencer at the very least. Geo can do without some gimmicky club (unless they add some geo-only clubs that enhance specific geos)

Mandau and Twashtar really only share one thing in common with the 99 Weapons, and that's their DPS (18.75). The 40 Attack and Occasional 3x Damage is far better than Twashtars Occ. Deals 2x DMG. You churn out more damage on Mandau per hit than you would with the Twashtar. Especially on DNC, Critical Hitting is fairly common (specially with Crit Hit Merits and Traits) so the 20 DEX doesn't really make too much of a difference in comparison. Mythic fails behind both of them outside of Kleos (the pure DMG boost from the weapon isn't anything to sneeze at)

what....?

DNC doesn't have crit traits, they just TP in such a large amount of DEX that their rate is naturally high.

Okay, you got me partially there, they do have Critical Attack Bonus which increases DMG, and yeah, most DNCs do TP in a huge amount of DEX

I don't even think that's it. It's called feather step, yo

I use that also but it's not even needed.

Dnc has crit attack bonus.

Like what.


Thanks for all the examples and math beyond the platitudes, SE. Thismust be why BRD can use mandau, RDM can use excal, and PLD is on six relics/emps and can't find a dayjob.

Whether or not Puppetmaster gets a Relic isn't my primary concern, really. It's much more big picture. My proposal was merely a way for allowing balance to be maintained--whatever "balance" means--, and Hand-to-Hand is the only weapon category where I can see there being an intended difference in damage potential between the jobs that primarily use it. It appears to be the case that the Puppetmaster is the only obstacle getting in the way of Relics being accessible on the five ToAU/WotG jobs and two SoA jobs.

The larger issue that I am concerned with is whether SquareEnix allows only 15 of 22 jobs access to Relic Weapons. That seems truly unbalanced.

The only way to ensure all 22 jobs can use both Relics and Empyreans is to balance Relics with the five neglected jobs. I don't think that it is enough for SquareEnix to placate us with promises of Mythic weapons (if they do) or some kind of Adoulin super weapons to make up for the Relic and Empyrean shortcomings of Runic Fencer and Geomancer. Alexandrite for a Mythic weapon costs somewhere around six times the cost of currency for a relic weapon, and just isn't worth it. Relics are obtainable, although they are still a large and serious undertaking.

I don't think that Empyreans are sufficient for every job, either. Of those five jobs from ToAU/WotG, the most distinct and noticeable difference between Empyreans and Relics is on Dancer. Twashtar and Rudra's Storm are just sad at level 85 and 90, and one would be better off using Heavy Metal Plates for something worthwhile than take Twashtar beyond level 90.

Because B- Dagger Skill BRD deserves to be on Horn and Dagger.... *** SE Logic

You didn't check the delay and ammo of each weapon.....
Gastraphetes's base dmg with ammo(assuming everyone using best ammo) is 161, Death Penalty is 153, Arma COR is 165, Arma RNG is 203, Anni RNG is also 203.

Also I'm not sure about math about PUP Mythic, but I'm under the impression that it attacks faster with Enhance Martial Arts on it, wouldn't it ended up dealing more dmg(not counting pet aspect)

The point wasn't to compare Ammo across the board, but you can test Wildfire damage, and from what I understand base damage doesn't do hardly anything to alter Wildfire at all, whether you are using best ammo or a copper bullet. I assume that Corsair would have DMG 165 on Annihilator if it was available? Regardless, I'm not here to compare ammo and complain for a lack of better ammunition on Corsair. You can take up that cause if you want.

With regard to Kenkonken, I'm not positive on the math either, but I would assume that you aren't going to be attacking so fast and hard to out-parse the DoT on Spharai, especially considering the hidden 13% rate of triple damage proc, counter damage, and damage boost of Final Heaven compared to Stringing Pummel outside of Abyssea. Again, the problem isn't whether Kenkonken is better than Spharai. If it is, wonderful. That still doesn't fix the problem that all you have on Puppetmaster is a sad and nerfed Empyrean or an out-of-reach Mythic, with no chance at a Relic, whilst simultaneously being the single obstacle blocking Dancer, Scholar, Corsair and Blue Mage from Relic weapons access.

Actually Stringing Pummel is already very powerful and with the mythic boost is just more awesome and grants an even more awesome aftermath. On Spharai you'd have to rely on a weak ws to put up AM and even then I'm not sure you'd match the damage from KKK.

Edit: actually Spharai AM isn't even worth putting up, either way it's considerably weaker than KKK.