Misandry is valid on an individual level. However, social structures do not exist that disempower men because they are men.
Honestly, if it doesn't make sense to you, you probably aren't going to get it during the duration of this forum topic.
Haven't seen child support or domestic violence laws lately? They are inherently disempowering for men.
What laws are disempowering for women?
EDIT: And Liela's post above perfectly shows why although I strongly dislike sexual dynamics, and gender within society, I do not dislike women.
there are plenty of men who abuse the arrangement that they are put into. is every ruling fair? no, but by and large men come out with the upper hand in most societal systems.
Men don't pay child support. They find ways to question expenses, understate income, attempt early emancipation of their children so they aren't on the hook.
Men don't pay child support. They find ways to question expenses, understate income, attempt early emancipation of their children so they aren't on the hook.
All 3 father's I've heard of that didn't pay child support went to jail for... ***, I forget what it was... It had some technical name and I am way too tired to remember. I say this not to generalize that no one gets away with it, but to point out that that's not gaming the system: it's breaking the law.
Don't equate people breaking the law to people abusing the system. That's more than just apples and oranges.
If the system in place was such that just about any man could stop paying child support and so no one gained it, then I'd say men have the upper hand.
As it stands, though, just about any mother can get custody of the children and ruin the father's life in divorce court with the law. That's abusing the system.
and do i really need to spout out how many times my boss has been a woman?
What exactly is your point? This is about average treatment of a group of people, not "well these certain women have it better." This thread has a ***load of confirmation bias going on and you would all benefit from doing some research.
You will notice an interesting line in thought in that you said "men" and not "some men" - misandrist undertones there! And yes, you can be imprisoned for breaking it. Oh, and women are less likely to have to pay support.
and do i really need to spout out how many times my boss has been a woman?
What exactly is your point? This is about average treatment of a group of people, not "well these certain women have it better." This thread has a ***load of confirmation bias going on and you would all benefit from doing some research.
because you are the supreme know it all right?
I do enjoy how we are caught up in this one aspect of the legal system that provides benefits to women and disadvantages to men. And need I remind you that these same structures that require and expect women to raise a child and are currently trying to deny them other options?
EDIT2: I would also argue that paternity as a whole is legally disempowering for men. If a man impregnates a woman, he is trapped legally if she chooses to keep the child, and must pay support towards it. Women ultimately have the choice to keep or not keep the baby.
If men had a small window of opportunity to "sign off" on the child and renounce all legal rights (including visitation and such in future), then they would have more power. As it happens, men are essentially powerless.
Actually, they do. At any point in time the father may "sign off", as you put it, their rights. They are then free to do whatever they wish and will have no responsibility for the child.
If they refuse to sign over their rights, they run the risk of having to pay child support. If they fail to pay, it is the mothers decision to put them in jail or not.
From what I've seen in this thread every example that women get disproportionately screwed in some metric; e.g. domestic abuse, salary, etc, is stone cold proof of sexism. Interestingly enough areas where women do statistically better like college matriculation rates are not examples of sexism toward men.
What is the deal with this fallacious idea that absent sexism, racism, or whatever we would all be the same? That's a bunch of crap; groupings of people are actually different on average which naturally leads to differences of outcome that are statistically significant.
From what I've seen in this thread every example that women get disproportionately screwed in some metric; e.g. domestic abuse, salary, etc, is stone cold proof of sexism. Interestingly enough areas where women do statistically better like college matriculation rates are not examples of sexism toward men.
What is the deal with this fallacious idea that absent sexism, racism, or whatever we would all be the same? That's a bunch of crap; groupings of people are actually different on average which naturally leads to differences of outcome that are statistically significant.
that is whats wrong. We are not the same, we are men and women; We are equal but not the same; Human beings but different genders.
From what I've seen in this thread every example that women get disproportionately screwed in some metric; e.g. domestic abuse, salary, etc, is stone cold proof of sexism. Interestingly enough areas where women do statistically better like college matriculation rates are not examples of sexism toward men.
What is the deal with this fallacious idea that absent sexism, racism, or whatever we would all be the same? That's a bunch of crap; groupings of people are actually different on average which naturally leads to differences of outcome that are statistically significant.
that is whats wrong. We are not the same, we are men and women; We are equal but not the same; Human beings but different genders.
EDIT2: I would also argue that paternity as a whole is legally disempowering for men. If a man impregnates a woman, he is trapped legally if she chooses to keep the child, and must pay support towards it. Women ultimately have the choice to keep or not keep the baby.
If men had a small window of opportunity to "sign off" on the child and renounce all legal rights (including visitation and such in future), then they would have more power. As it happens, men are essentially powerless.
It is disempowering for men. But it's also an inducement to take care of your responsibilities to the kids you make. Also, women take of the baby from day 1, as soon as they know it's there, it's their responsibility. It's a reality for a woman the first time she feels it move. For a man, an unborn child is an idea until much, much later. How many *young men especially* think "I can't do this. I'm not ready. She should give it up or have an abortion or whatever." But as soon as they see that baby, they're in love. As they should be. I'm saying that to say the "sign-off" on baby option is not necessarily a horrible idea but when that window of opportunity should be would be tricky to choose. Also, what happens when the guy matures a bit more and starts thinking of home and family? Bam, there's a kid that he has no right to do anything for. It may end up creating more problems than it solves.
I totally agree with Liela on the birth control issue. I'm married and use birth control. I'm supposed to what? Only have sex when I wanna get pregnant? Yeah okay. I'll expect my husband to be completely faithful for life even though we only have sex once every 5 yrs, if ever again. I'm bad because I definitely cannot afford to be popping babies out Duggar-family style. I expect "the taxpayer" to fund my shameless whoring ways because 2/2 pregnancies almost killed me and I'd rather not die in childbirth. */sarcasm off.*
I don't think any of the -isms (sexism, racism, whatever) will ever be fully solved. We're people. And some people will always be 100% convinced that whatever they are is superior to anything different. But we can and should try to keep fighting for equality.
Wouldn't our time better be focused on singling out news stories and trying to make them sound racist?
I mean, sexism is so 40 years ago.
Do you live in a cave or something ? Sexism is so 40 years ago really ?
Since how long didn't you go out ? Sexism is everywhere, just make a comparation betwin a man & a woman doing exactly the same job, tell me why a woman get a lesser salary ?
Why womans have to suffer of not being taken in charge by the insurances when it come to this, viagra is taken onto somes insurances in somes countrys to gives the mens the possibility to last longer/to have an erection, isn't that the same if we go by the point of view of this other idiotic politician ?
Do you need somes others examples ? We're in 2012 & sexism is a major threat for woman still.
But anyway its america ^^ God bless America & their retardness on lots of life subject ^^
because they want to get paid the same and be treated like a woman.
Women are not men, men are not women (some transgenders excluded) but it still doesn't deny the fact that men of equal size/shape are stronger due to their bone structure (see physics: lever, elbow)
not to mention in the general since when you add women to an all male work force they have to cater to a bunch of crap. You can't go up to a female co-worker and talk about the bj you got last night or you'll get a lawsuit so fast it's not funny (some excluded), if women want the same pay then they get the same treatment, end of story.
The corporate world plays to a different tune and most of that comes down to the fact that large corporations are still typically run by men, especially international ones.
They have to fight the system, or play it and get to the top then make the rules, that's just how it is.
edit: there shouldn't be any laws passed to "correct" this or we'll have the same ***with the affirmative action bull that goes on.
From what I've seen in this thread every example that women get disproportionately screwed in some metric; e.g. domestic abuse, salary, etc, is stone cold proof of sexism. Interestingly enough areas where women do statistically better like college matriculation rates are not examples of sexism toward men.
What is the deal with this fallacious idea that absent sexism, racism, or whatever we would all be the same? That's a bunch of crap; groupings of people are actually different on average which naturally leads to differences of outcome that are statistically significant.
that is whats wrong. We are not the same, we are men and women; We are equal but not the same; Human beings but different genders.
um... yes that was my point too
sry i guess i did not quite get what you meant then :(.
Men don't pay child support. They find ways to question expenses, understate income, attempt early emancipation of their children so they aren't on the hook.
every man I've known personally that pays child support pays way too much and the woman squandered it.
Men totally get shafted in the area of child support.
For starters: anyone who has joint 50/50 custody shouldn't be paying ***into child support.
EDIT2: I would also argue that paternity as a whole is legally disempowering for men. If a man impregnates a woman, he is trapped legally if she chooses to keep the child, and must pay support towards it. Women ultimately have the choice to keep or not keep the baby.
If men had a small window of opportunity to "sign off" on the child and renounce all legal rights (including visitation and such in future), then they would have more power. As it happens, men are essentially powerless.
It is disempowering for men. But it's also an inducement to take care of your responsibilities to the kids you make. Also, women take of the baby from day 1, as soon as they know it's there, it's their responsibility. It's a reality for a woman the first time she feels it move. For a man, an unborn child is an idea until much, much later. How many *young men especially* think "I can't do this. I'm not ready. She should give it up or have an abortion or whatever." But as soon as they see that baby, they're in love. As they should be. I'm saying that to say the "sign-off" on baby option is not necessarily a horrible idea but when that window of opportunity should be would be tricky to choose. Also, what happens when the guy matures a bit more and starts thinking of home and family? Bam, there's a kid that he has no right to do anything for. It may end up creating more problems than it solves.
I totally agree with Liela on the birth control issue. I'm married and use birth control. I'm supposed to what? Only have sex when I wanna get pregnant? Yeah okay. I'll expect my husband to be completely faithful for life even though we only have sex once every 5 yrs, if ever again. I'm bad because I definitely cannot afford to be popping babies out Duggar-family style. I expect "the taxpayer" to fund my shameless whoring ways because 2/2 pregnancies almost killed me and I'd rather not die in childbirth. */sarcasm off.*
I don't think any of the -isms (sexism, racism, whatever) will ever be fully solved. We're people. And some people will always be 100% convinced that whatever they are is superior to anything different. But we can and should try to keep fighting for equality.
We should only fight for equality if you honestly believe that sexism, racism, etc is the ONLY thing that accounts for differences in outcome. It is not. We should fight for equality under the law; i.e., it turns out Jim Crow laws are bad thing, but fighting for equality suggests we should either tear one group down unfairly or lift another up at someone else's expense. Neither would morally justifiable.
Men don't pay child support. They find ways to question expenses, understate income, attempt early emancipation of their children so they aren't on the hook.
All 3 father's I've heard of that didn't pay child support went to jail for... ***, I forget what it was... It had some technical name and I am way too tired to remember. I say this not to generalize that no one gets away with it, but to point out that that's not gaming the system: it's breaking the law.
Don't equate people breaking the law to people abusing the system. That's more than just apples and oranges.
If the system in place was such that just about any man could stop paying child support and so no one gained it, then I'd say men have the upper hand.
As it stands, though, just about any mother can get custody of the children and ruin the father's life in divorce court with the law. That's abusing the system.
Not breaking the law.
You can pay some of the child support, and not all of it and get away with dragging out paying certain payments. Don't confuse law with enforcement of law. It's easy to write a law, but if it isn't enforced, people will find loopholes.
The argument isn't black and white. Men pay women child support, women pay men child support. Men get child custody, women get child custody.
For every abuse of the system you can name against men, you can name many more against women. There are plenty of outliers, and even unfair trends anyone can cite to, but this is far from a misandrist society.
Leila has pretty much touched on a good deal of what I was going to throw in.
As far as women's salary goes, most women do take the time off for having children. The more kiddos, the more time off, the more experience you lose. I know that when it's baby time I'll probably do the same. I can't really complain, because I am fully aware that I will be putting myself in a position that my peers may surpass me. That's okay. It's about priorities. Knuckle-down for your career if you want, or go for the family. It's a choice.
Most of my gal-pals went into teaching specifically because they wanted to accommodate future family life. I get a little irked when they complain about their salaries considering their time off. They chose that profession.
Never ever have I felt discriminated against because of my gender.
To me any woman saying "Men are the source of all my problems" is equivalent to a white man saying "Blacks are the source of all Americas problems". It's blind hatred masked by self victimization. Yes bad things happen to some women sometimes. Bad things also happen to men. If you deny that you're a sexist bigot. Feminism at it's core is just hatred and bigotry.
"Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on one of them."
Just something to mention on the whole gender inequality as salary goes. It's crap. Women gravitate toward low paying jobs like elementary school teacher as it turns out. Studies that control for occupation have shown no statistical significance between average men and women salaries. That is, men make more on average than women because they work in higher paying fields, but a male accounts payable clerk makes the same as a female accounts payable clerk on average, a male florists makes the same as a male florists on average, etc.
Just something to mention on the whole gender inequality as salary goes. It's crap. Women gravitate toward low paying jobs like elementary school teacher as it turns out. Studies that control for occupation have shown no statistical significance between average men and women salaries. That is, men make more on average than women because they work in higher paying fields, but a male accounts payable clerk makes the same as a female accounts payable clerk on average, a male florists makes the same as a male florists on average, etc.
I was drugged just a couple days ago. I mask my pain with randomness and ADHD. Police are reviewing bar footage to see if they can see what happened, doctors will send me information when I see my doctor on Tuesday. I was hit with a mescaline dose years back, made it so all I could move was my eyes and I couldn't make any noise. I had friends with me then, thank god. Had friends the other day, too. I was drinking a non-alcoholic drink, and suddenly I was just hammered. I don't remember anything afterward. Friends told me I was approached several times by a few men who really wanted me to leave with them, so that's who the police are looking for. God knows what would have happened to me.
As a result I am more skittish than usual, my kidneys really hurt, and I'm overall depressed. And they didn't even strike me. Violence and Woman abuse is a real thing, and it's terrifying.
I maintain, however, that we are all robots. :)
I have two male friends who had the same exact thing done to them.
One of my friends went to Vegas and was at a bar really late. A WOMAN (GASP!) was all over him and one of his friends. She dosed his drink and stole his phone and wallet.
Another one of my male friends got dosed at a gay bar. But his friends were there and got him out of there before the guy who dosed him could do anything.
I hate to break it to you, but bad things happen to everyone. Not just women.
Also let's not even go into the fact that woman get less prison time for the same crimes as males, the whole custody and divorce thing and the entire double standard when it comes to woman having sex with younger and underage males.
...I don't recall once saying that men aren't drugged and taken advantage of, or that this phenomena is only done to women.
I kinda skipped the last two pages so if you don't find this relevant, feel free to skip it. It's more a story than anything else...
So, my uncle married a lawyer a few years back. She mostly worked for social services and women who had been abused. She stood up for them. She worked on every case of domestic violence in my city, saw the consequences of it... and stood up for the victims.
So, when this woman married my uncle, she became one of those domestic violence victims. That was more than 15 years ago, and she's still married to him. To a man that would beat her til she bled, that has sent her to the hospital in several occasions and beat her even when she was pregnant.
I could never understand why she would ever put up with it... how could something like this happen to her... she's there standing up for woman who are abused while she is being abused herself. In my opinion she should have known better. But she was pretty much obsessed with my uncle and put up with any of his actions because she didn't want to lose him. Which in my opinion is stupid and kind of sick.
So, women... pick better.
In my opinion, she wasn't a victim, she was just desperately holding onto a man that didn't love or care for her at all. He didn't want to marry her in the first place, and only got married because she got pregnant. I'm not trying to excuse him, but I can't treat her as a victim. She is a smart modern woman whose line of work was this... she should have known better.
Not all cases are like this, but a lot of domestic violence can be prevented and stopped if it's dealt with in time.
Sometimes sh*t happens, and it can't be avoided. But sometimes, you do have a say.
dude stop quoting taa, the guy is a very poor source of anything...
I disagree. I think he's a very intelligent very informed vocal individual who shares most of my ideals to a T. Also, "That which can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
