Upheaval Thoughts

Bingo.


That's part of my argument. He implies that accuracy is not a concern, but to prove his case, he's showing a parse in which he relied upon 77 ACC in gear (~5.5 ACC per non-weapon/sub slots) and almost every accuracy enhancement available. If you're doing almost all you can to maximize accuracy, what could you do differently that would suggest accuracy is unnecessary and does the data prove that? There's plenty of suggestions for the former (None of which he stated), but until we see data without said buffs, you certainly do not have the latter. In short, I don't think that people "complaining" about accuracy are suggesting they don't get enough accuracy with 77 ACC in gear, Feint, SV Madrigal, Hasso, and Aggressor.

To be clear, Kaerin could be right about this chamber's mobs having moderate evasion (Thus, allowing you to drop buffs such as SV Madrigal), but he lacks the data to support such a criticism at this time.

In that chamber you only need tons of ACC buffs for the Ixions. I can easily provide that data if you require it. The Ixions are one of the most evasion mobs in Legion, and people use ACC as a crutch to say HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE ***like "Ragnarok is better than Ukon because it gains 10 ACC" when the truth is that Ukonvasara's ACC is easy to cap with the standard buffs you should be using in Legion, and I'm tired of seeing those HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE arguments.

As far as the ACC goes, we had 3 Ukons a Vere and a THF for damage, and 1 COR and a BRD for buffers last time we did that chamber, and we cleared 14 mobs. Our THF was able to Feint 2 mobs every wave, and we all had capped ACC (not counting being flashed from the white Ixions) with just feints and 1 Madrigal outside gear/aggressor.

If we're able to feint most of the mobs killing 14, it should be easy to feint every mob in a less successful group, or in Mul.

EDIT::
Side note, not sure if you really want to count the THF as a DD, since it wasnt getting buffs, neither was the COR, and the COR was just a mule anyway and not attacking.

Yeah, I think you misrepresented your position. Saying Ragnarok's accuracy bonus won't contribute towards dmg =/= Accuracy concerns are unwarranted. Standard buffs wouldn't include Madrigal otherwise. That said, depending on how often you're suffering from flash, they may have a point (Though idk if Flash merely decreases hit rate or imposes a static accuracy reduction; that needs testing).

On that note, I would be interested in your non-feint data if you include buffs active and gear used during the duration.

With proper buffs accuracy concerns are not warranted in the way some people are trying to over hype them. This is my official stance. It's HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE to not bring a BRD and a THF, and its HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE to not use Madrigal and Feint. And I'm pretty sure its easy to full time soulvoiced/troub/night songs for an entire run. Not doing this and not making use of feint from your Treasure Hunter is just sort of HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE in my opinion, and you should be building around having those buffs if you want to be successful.

Also: we wont play sub par just to test stuff, Flowers already yelled at me for trying lol. And I couldnt tell you what is feinted and what is not. You would have to watch my live stream for the THF using feint and I can parse and send you the saved parses, but thats really it.


Agasayas Collar when PD is not up or when Im pretty sure I wont die without it. Gloves are full time since Restraint is full time, unless something dispels it at a bad time.


Full time buffs:
JAs: Hasso, Retaliation, Berserk, Aggressor, Restraint, Blood rage (unless a WAR is 2 houring, then we use warcry)

Songs: it varies a bit depending on which bard, but always 1 madrigal and 1 minuet, up to 2 minuets. I'd say we generally have a g horn and at least a 90 Durb, but sometimes those people aren't on.

Rolls: we always have WAR and DRK rolls, and theyre good ones like 90% of the time lol. If we have a second COR, which we usually do, we use SAM roll, and the last one has been changing recently and we didnt decide yet.

We also use Dia 2, and everyone uses RCB.

EDIT: My groups main problem at this point IMO is that we have no DRKs, at all. What we will end up using pretty much all the time for every run soonish, is going to be war war war sam drk, with war, drk, sam, dunno rolls, and madrigal and at least 2 minuets.

EDIT again:::
Claymore grip inside Legion! 5stp 3da armada 4crit damage heca+1

EDIT again again:::
When we can sneak our WHM into the DD party she does cast boost STR, but I cant even begin to tell you how often that is or how much we have it up.

2 COR is not standard. At least for Mul if you plan to beat Rex w/o relying on WC to reset. Not to mention how much time you burn waiting for a second COR to put up 2 more rolls, which probably negates the damage gained from how much DPS you gain from them. Not all BRDs have 4 songs, either. In most cases you're dropping a 3rd minuet for mad.

Mobs in Mul also have a -crit hit trait(seems to be substantial for wave2), so there's certainly justification for the Ragna > Ukon argument for legion. Feint is also only 30seconds, which might be good enough for NQ chambers, but certainly won't cover all mobs in Mul.

Anyways, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to Ukon bash; I was one of the 1st to 95 and 99 it. I just have a lot of experience in Legion, which tells me that Ukon is not the "best". I wish you had a chance to either use Ragna or see one in action, you might change your mind.

PS. Why are you even wasting time doing 14 mobs in Muru? You could have made a full mul set in that time exiting after wave1 trophy.

Most of the reason I'd bring a Ukon to Legion over a Ragnarok in "ideal" circumstances is for Tomahawk on rex. I don't really care about ideal though.

102% sure that tomahawk doesn't require a great axe.

Totally forgot that WAR could use Ragnarok

We were bored and didn't have the people to actually do mul, so we farmed muru hoping for shoes.

Edit: as for cors, its easy enough to swap them around and get at least 1 extra roll in

Which I don't doubt, but there's little to zero wiggle room in jobs you need to bring in order to beat Gallu and Rex w/o relying on WC.

We have to fill our 18 person alliance with mules. We tend to stick those mules on things that will benefit us, and dont require a lot of attention, hense why we generally have 2 CORs. For a long time, we were only bringing 10-11 people to Legion, recently we've been able to replace a lot of mules with actual players, so it might change a bit, but I doubt it. our last Mul run we actually had 17 honest to goodness players, and only 1 dual boxed mule.

Your Mul -crit trait doesn't exist either. I've done 4~ now, and havent seen anything out of the ordinary. If you can provide real evidence, I would be inclined to believe you, but assuming that isn't true, 99 Ukon beats 99 Ragnarok, no matter if a WAR or DRK is holding it, as long as you have 2 other WARs and full time blood rage, which my group does.

30 seconds is defiantly not enough time to 'win' harder stuff in Mul, or even other chambers with the gimp way my group is doing Legion, but it's enough to give you most of it's HP gone and win within a minute, even with the melees only having 90% hit rate after it's off.

And I have seen a very good Ragnarok DRK do stuff, he ties me a lot when I do stuff with him, depending on buffs one of us will be slightly ahead of the other. Either way, Ragnarok will never be enough of a damage increase over Ukon to use it, unless you're bringing lots of DRKs to Legion, and are the 1 random WAR for Fighters Roll enhancing. The idea is that WAR is the best DD, so you bring 3-4 of them, and have them do what they can to do the most damage, which is full timing Blood rage and using 99 Ukon. Ragnarok can only catch up to Ukon, if your -crit rate trait is true, and even then, it wont beat Ukon by enough of a margin to justify the 200mil price tag when Ukon is better for everything else. And also, without capped attack speed and tons of regain and stuff, Ragnarok will never beat Ukon. It's only when you can remove the xhit advantage that Ukon has over Ragnarok and have capped attack+8% that Ragnarok can become good for WAR.


People use to also say you had to PD every mob in Legion in order to win. Give us a few more runs and we'll beat both of them with our gimp setup. We downed 1 on 3rd and our 4th runs at least, and thats with a gimp setup, how'd your group do?

Because you've been copying all of the starts myself and others have been using and perfecting over the course of months, which we have been kind enough to share with the community.

my idea (that we will probably be doing on sunday, i'll let you know how it goes) is:

war war war sam DD(whatever we have really) whm,
pld sch sch sch brd thf,
smn smn smn smn cor cor,

PD on wave 2 ironclad/naraka, gallu and botulus. 1 MS on ironclad, naraka, and gallu. try to reset MS for botulus.

I don't know how it will work as kaerin....aggressively....said, we are still relatively new at this, and rarely have more than 12 real people at one of our runs.

that said, our last run we had 10 mintues left when gallu/rex popped, we just didn't have a PD left for rex because I had used it on the T1 IC (which we wont be doing on our next run) so i'm hopeful.

I love how people instantly think others bother to read anything before doing stuff.

Because you totally don't post here, copy what others say and claim it as your own, and get bashed over HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE ideas/incorrect math/logic constantly.

Totally.

lol, when I post something someone else said I say it's something someone else said. And I have yet to be proven wrong about anything I have stated as a fact and did the math for myself. Nor the logic thing, but I do have some HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE ideas occassionally, mainly because I dont go out and instantly copy other people.

Saying 'you copied our strat' when you just zone into an area, hold embrava (which Sawtelle came up with for neo nyzul and it was copied to Legion) and PD mobs and zerg kill them isn't some amazing thing that people wouldn't figure out after their first run. Treating it like its some amazing concept is just stupid. We go in with what we have and kill ***, we wouldnt have the people to copy your strat if we even tried.

Why do people still waste their breath/typing/whatever on Kaerin? It's a waste of time.

This parse is of 6 combined Mul runs.

This is the crit data overall. All mobs.
Immediately, something is off. I had a 11% crit rate. I TP in claymore grip, and rancorous mantle. Assuming floored dDEX, my crit rate should be at least: 5%(base from dex)+ 5%(merits)+8%(gear)=18%. So I'm 7% too low even assuming the minimum contribution from dex. And we have 2 99 rag DRKs who should have min crit% of 24% coming in as 12~14%... And that's all before factoring in bloodrage from 2 wars.

Now lets break this down by waves.

Same parse data, but only Wave 1 mobs.
Now look at that. Great crit rate on wave one. I've gone well above my 18% min, and am clearly benefiting from dDEX.

Now, does anyone realize what this implies about wave 2?

Wave2
I went from 27.59% on wave 1, to 1.76% on wave 2 mobs.now, you could assume that wave 2 had higher AGI, and floored my dDEX, but even then, I'd be at 18% crit rate. but I'm not, I'm at 1.76%. God, my poor Drakesbanes.

There is Clearly a Massive crit rate penalty vs wave 2 mobs. It has to be at least -16% but realistically is probably greater.

This being the case, crit ws reliant weapons, like Ukon(and my poor Ryunohige) are at a notable disadvantage on wave 2 mobs. Whereas Ragnarok/Resolution don't give a damn.

Oh stop with the facts.

Kaerinparser > Kparser

Thanks for calling me a liar, but I typically don't post before I get my facts straight, unlike some people.

You really only need to demonstrate a parsed critical hit rate (with a large enough sample size) below 5% to prove that a mob has a trait "Enemy Critical Hit Rate - X%"

Sorry Kaerin, but if you are arguing WAR stuff with Ejiin you are arguing with the wrong person. He is probably the best WAR out there across all servers. And their LS is one of the first if not the first to beat Mul and consistently beating it killing both ig and rex. Most of us are following their footsteps using their strategy etc.

Um how about, if you're going to claim something like that you provide at least some evidence that it exists instead of just expecting people to believe you. I fixed the part of my quote you should of used, instead of just the whole thing too, it accurately demonstrates my intention and I'm not sure you missed it. See how it works is, when someone claims something like that, they need to provide evidence to support it, or people will say crazy things all the time.

But anyway, let me get this straight, someone comes into a thread and says something ridiculous like "these mobs have a -crit trait" and then show nothing to back up their claims, and you all think you should believe them rather than ask for proof? This is what you guys think is the normal reaction and how you should respond? Really?

@Martel, thanks for trying to steer the conversation in the correct direction, your parses are nice, and I will contribute with Mul parses when I go from now on too.
When did asking for proof become anything other than the norm? When people makes claims for things that are not normal, the correct action is to ask for proof and assume they're wrong until it is provided.

Hey Martel, is there a way to get parses to look that clean on BG? I've been trying TablePaster, but the values sometimes don't line up properly. I'm wondering if I just need to change programs or if the issue is site related.

I still find it hilarious when Kaerin asks for proof.

Clearly anything more than 3% crit rate on a parse containing players with the apex of equipment, including pieces that increase your critical hit rate straight up, over the course of several fights, and is showing a massive disparity in expected and previously parsed values, is completely inconclusive.

I always just paste the data inside the [code][/code tags and it looks fine. now, if you have to change anything in there(like names, etc) it starts to get messy.

Also in case I wasn't clear I was stating that the data presented is more than sufficient to show that there is an "Enemy Critical Hit Rate - X%" trait involved.

(Seeing as this is a stat we see on gear and is available for merits, it's actually quite unsurprising that this is an available trait for enemies to have.)

Time to get a bit back on track!

In yet another futile attempt to wiggle my way out of farming another 200mil, have you seen this type of crit rate penalty in any other chambers? Couldn't the observed 2~5% damage difference between Rag99 and Ukon99 that you mentioned earlier in this thread be mostly due to decreased Ukko's WS performance as a result of this crit rate penalty? ie, perhaps Ukon is actually winning in all of the halls where this penalty doesn't exist?

I'll make it if I must but there's other big ticket stuff that I'm lacking too, like Valk body, Huginn feet and... I guess that's it for now. So hard to decide and, while I can farm gil, I'm not exactly rich.

I'm not picking sides or anything here, but am I missing something? Seems to me that Kaerin only commented about not believeing in the Area mobs having Enemy crit rate - *before* the parse was posted, and was agreeable after seeing the results.

Also, @earlier comment, i agree that ejiins a great source of information, but there's nobody at all in the game thats above arguing/debating with.