How Long Does A Soboro Last?

You know nothing and your knowledge is flawed.

Tee hee~

OMG, did someone say Skillchain ?!?!? Anyway, I'll give you not only some feedback on Soboro use at 75, but also in some applications of it.

For the person who said they won't level past 50 without it, that's your decision, but most SAM don't have one until they are 75.

Most healers at 50 will hate you for having and using it anyway, as will the tanks that are getting spammed with TP moves as a result. If you plan to SAM/RNG with it in lower level EXP, you don't get Sidewinder until the late 50s, and even then, you'll miss them a LOT, even with Sushi and R.Acc gear.

Now as for use at 75...

Soboro as SAM/DNC (In parties):

I merit quite often with my LS Mates on SAM/DNC with Soboro. Typically I am skillchaining with 2 or 3 other people in the party. I try to open them more so that the damage from the skillchain is calculated based on the bigger weaponskill damage, but I just go with whatever one is available.

With Soboro at Bird camp, I typically WS from 450-600, but I usually am not even swapping into WS gear unless I'm going to self skillchain. It's not because I'm lazy. It's because I simply get TP too fast for it to be practical to swap every time I can WS. I'm usually watching the log for other peoples' actions so that I can react, or I'm starting out the next bird.

You know how fast birds die in a chain 200+ party right? Now imagine AVERAGING 2.5-3 Weaponskills per bird. Yes, it really is that nuts. As far as making SAM/DNC work in a merit party, a lot of it is stylistic. I have a semi-normal group of people that I go with, so they know how I roll.

Typically, once we get the first few kills under the belt and the rhythm is getting into a groove, I start jumping off the current bird at about 25% and starting the next Bird.

This accomplishes several things:

1) I get hit once or twice, thus losing some HP so I have room for Drains. Typically I ask my healer not to heal me unless I'm below 800 HP for this purpose. Because Drain Samba (seems to be) calculated using some combination of weapon delay and skill/level differential, a Soboro gets the same Drain as you would on a higher damage GK, even though the dmg per hit is lower. This can result in drains of 20-35 PER HIT on Greater Colibri.

2) I have hate very solidly off the puller, so they have no worries about it following them. Usually I try to keep a running stack of Finishing Moves, so I will Quickstep the current bird and Desperate Flourish the sleeper. Again, not only does this assist with crowd control, but it gives a functional accuracy boost to everyone in the party.

3) I always bring my Evasion/Parrying gear with me to merit parties, AND I can solo Colibri, so I can hold one off indefinitely if we are ever having a link issue.

Soboro as SAM/RNG (In EXP):

For SAM/RNG in EXP, is sounds like you pretty much have it down as far as how to use it. I don't know if you run in and out to try to get the best range for your Sidewinders/Barrage for Accuracy/Attack, but that's a personal preference. You drop some damage by not doing it, but it saves time. In the end, it probably balances out.

Soboro as SAM/RNG (in Endgame, specifically, Sea):

I use my Soboro for SAM/RNG like 98% of the time. There is only one exception that I've found so far, and that is for the Wyrm KS99 in Balga's Dias. There, I'm am meleeing like a normal SAM (with a normal GK) until just before it takes flight, at which point I self-skillchain Fragmentation for the BLMs to burst on. This allows us to limit the amount of time that it's in the air.

However, being /RNG, I can still damage it while it's in the air, so I drop back to Ranged attack range and start dumping Demon Arrows, via Barrage, Sidewinder, etc... down the Maw of the beast. Usually I'm already tanking as soon as it takes flight, so I can't run away because of draw in, and you can't melee for TP when it's in the air, so Soboro is pointless. I really need to work on a halfway decent fire resist setup so I can survive this part of it better, but Suzaku is being a stingy bird lately.

Otherwise, in endgame, I use SAM/RNG in Sea quite a bit. Some of the fights you can melee TP, and other's you really need to just shoot arrows for TP.

For Prudence, Faith, and Hope, you can melee for TP and Sidewinder, but...

For Prudence, I recommend just using melee TP/WS setups (even with your Soboro) until you have Sharpshot up, and saving 200+ TP, Sekkanoki, Meditate, and Barrage for it so that you can get the most out of your Sharpshot time.

For Faith, you may actually want to just ranged attack for TP so you can avoid Breakga and some of the other TP moves. On the last one we did, I unleashed a hellstorm of Sidewinders + Barrage right after it had opened up, and well, then it opened up on me. You can chase it around and melee TP, or stay static and get hits on it as it passes you. That's really something to just experiment with and see how it works for you.

For Fortitude you will probably end up having to fire arrows for TP. The Soboro will usually hit with 0 damage unless you get a critical, and then maybe 1-3 damage, but at least TP. Something in the damage calculation seems to make it so that Ranged Attack gets a smaller penalty against its significant defense. Chances are that you're using Sushi if you're using SAM/RNG in endgame (I've tried Squid and Sole, and I definitely prefer Squid).

I was getting anywhere from 18-34 damage per hit on ranged attacks and 180-250 on Sidewinders, while the melee SAM were getting Weaponskills in the 35-50 range the majority of the time (plus unless it's behind a pillar, you can hit it anywhere in the room with your bow, except the notable shorter range on Sidewinder)

You might think to use it for Temperance also, and I could see that because of being able to vary Slashing and Piercing damage, but I just do that with a Polearm, and for Temperance and most often /Non-RNG unless we happen to decide to go for Temperance directly after something for which I was on /RNG.

Grips for Soboro:

Also, with a Soboro, the Platinum Grip is the only one that you should be thinking about. The +1 is nice for the added accuracy, but really the NQ is just fine since the Stun rate is the same.

The Stun proc rate isn't super awesome as far as percentage of hits, but when you mulitply it by the number of hits you get in it becomes significant because of the decrease in time between stuns.

Soboro with /WAR and /THF:

You can use it, but you're probably better off with a "normal" GK with either of these subjobs past 72. That said, if you have a Soboro, bring it with you and ask the party leader if they mind if you give it a test run. You might be surprised by SA Weaponskill damage with it (like I was).

It's probably not the best option, but if you can find a group where you can skillchain with multiple partners for the added damage, it actually does quite well. Everyone talks about the 40 DMG nerfing the WS damage, and it does, but not as bad as what people seem to keep saying. With a Soboro, your damage curve is a more DoT style with smaller spikes than with a traditional GK.

What's a skill chain? I've never heard of one...

Good post by the way, very to the point, I like that! Also plenty of viewpoints. Lots of "food for thought", talking of which it's lunch time!

Aye Darkmoose, good stuff, you sound like someone that actually takes pride in your job and tries different things, rather than just going with the flow. It also sounds like you'd be one of the first people try out other peoples suggestions no matter how crazy they sound to see if they work, as opposed to just writing off "crazy new ideas".

My only gripe though, is that you've never used a Hagun. I'm really interested to see if your view-point changes at all after you've tried Hagun in as many situations as you've just described.

ok for a average a normal SAM WS at 75 does how much damage? not some super ubber 1337 sam but a average normal sam using a standard GK? about 1k?
whats the average sam ws with a soboro?
and what about a sidewinder?
all vs the same mobs

that is the easiest way to put this all in prospective. is to simply have a SAM(one) set for the 2 diffrent setups since sam ws are STR based and ranged are agi based. to see what the actual numbers are. its easy to say whats but becasue so and so says but lets see proff via screen shots and gear list vs this. lets pick a mob. and have people do it. and we can finally put this to bed. no parcer nothng just WS 10 of the same mobs. 10 with a soboro doing ws and 10 using sidewinder. just screen shots. it doesnt sound to hard. you dont even haveto hit em wit ha hagan. just what ever you think is a good 75 GK.

now lets see what those numbers are. if you want to be the person who puts a nail in the otehr guys coffen . now is your time to do it.

id like to see the data.

Sidewinder is actually modified by STR and AGI. >.>

No, I actually borrowed a friend's Hagun when he was on a 3 month break from the game, and while I did really like it, I didn't see it as the absolute "Gamebreaker" that so many people make it out to be.

I do intend to get one, but I'm not about to run out and sell my Onimaru as soon as I do either. For things like Jailer of Justice, where I'm SAM/THF and have 250+ TP seemingly every time SA is ready.

Otherwise, for EG stuff, I'm most often on SAM/RNG or SAM/DNC for Sea (I'm serious, I'm usually SAM/DNC in tank party for Ix'Aern farming, BY REQUEST OF THE TANKS no less). I have spent so much time soloing in Sea that I know all of the TP moves by heart, and I'm always "Johnny on the Spot" at Healing Waltz for the tanks, as well as varying Aspir and Drain Samba depending on the enemy.

For Ix'Drg, I automatically know that I'm on Wynav duty as soon as it pops, so I grab one and head off to a corner with it (They are a joke, no tougher than soloing a Decent Challenge Ul'Hpmede outside).

SAM/RNG is mostly for Jailers, although last week, I was SAM/RNG (Hope), SAM/THF (Justice), and SAM/DNC (Ix'Drg) in one night.

When I'm not on SAM, I'm on WHM on Aramina (both characters on same account, so I can't DB them). I have BRD and PLD at 75 too, but I don't use them at EG level much. BRD for Kirin Burns and occasionally for Limbus, but if it's just BLM party bard, let one of the people with like BRD72 do that, so I can get my WHM butt back in the tank party.

For the way that I utilize the job, even including merit parties, a Hagun is just not as important for me as it seems to be for many SAM.

30% AGi 17% STR

@ Megatron

An average, moderately meritted SAM will not be pushing close to 1k per WS on Colibri. They are probably looking at more like 650-800. With a Soboro that will be anywhere from 450-600. Of course, with a Hagun (not a normal, average GK), that jumps because of the TP Bonus.

As someone else mentioned before, a SAM/RNG on Greater Colibri will probably do Sidewinders that are similar to what they could do with their GK Weaponskills not using a Soboro, but the frequecy will be more. However, SAM/RNG is also VERY gear dependent, so you have to sacrifice a lot to land your shots (esp. Sidewinders).

A SAM/RNG Sidewinder pales in comparison to a RNG Sidewinder for damage, but SAM/RNG can get them a LOT more often.

When SAM/RNG has a huge edge over other SAM subjobs is in kited fights, because you can WS on the mob WHILE it is moving, without having to wait for a hold.

As touched upon in my original post, no place is this more evident than in the land of Lumoria (a.k.a. Sea) due the the kited nature of so many of the fights there.

25% AGI, 16% STR is actually correct.

Because of this, you can see why Seiryu's Kote and Kirin's Osode are top notch SAM/RNG gear. The Kote are almost a requirement if you plan to use SAM/RNG seriously.

EDIT: This is actually Darkmoose, just didn't notice which char it tagged me as when I posted.

Oops, my bad :P Knew it was either 15, 16 or 17 <.<

@Darkmoose, the fact that you have used Hagun fairly extensively puts another aspect onto your opinions. Considering the fan-base of Hagun, I really feel that it can't be over-looked when making your comparisons.

i didnt say it had to be birds or any mob i simply said pick a mob. and show me some pictures. saying what one might do or can do or will do. its thory. give me facts or nothing. and a way of giving facts is to show pictures. it would take what 20 mins to do 30 WS? to prove or disprove this entire thread.

if its a impossible request then i guess well never know... and the speculation will go on forever. but atm i'm not 75 but have a few 75 sam friends. and they themselve still lean both ways on the subject. however none of them have both a soboro and a hagan to show the true diffrences. or wish to go after a sword tehy view is worthless.

Back to the original thread:

The simple answer is...

Soboro Sukehiro is good forever, as long as you know how and when to apply it.

It's a crapload of fun to use, it makes SAM/RNG a decent option outside of the 20-30 Level stretch. It is game changing if you like SAM/DNC. Soboro for a SAM/DNC lover is a bigger game-changer than Hagun for any other SAM.

It's a long-term goal that any semi-serious SAM should consider, BUT just like owning a Hagun, not having one should not mean you have to be ashamed or stop leveling your SAM. If you like the job, play it with what you have and find way to contribute the best that you can.

I didn't repond to your previous post because Darkmoose beat me to it with a super ultra comprehensive post. But seriously, the proof is already out there, it's been done and done to death. Hagun WILL give you better WS's than any GK you can buy (and most R/E GK's too). Soboro WILL give you a ***-ton more TP, making it THE katana for sam/dnc and most sam/rng situations. Also, doing 30 WS's and taking screenshots of them is pretty much what a Parser does, except that it includes all your melee damage as well (which is in no way to be forgotten), and does it over a much longer time period, giving you much more accurate results.

Knowing that, it all comes down to a matter of how you play SAM. Darkmoose has listed about 6 vastly different ways in which he uses SAM, some of which Soboro is awesome for, some of which it isn't. Again, don't forget that WS damage is not the be all and end all, as Enternius will no doubt log on and tell you any minute now, your total melee damage is way over your ws damage, and for sam it's probably about 50/50(?).

What I'm trying to say, is that there's so much more to consider than simply which weapon will give you the OMGWTFBBQKITTEN numbers. Your first post showed that you are quite an involved SAM and possibly open to new ideas, so try to avoid being a walmart spamurai and look at every aspect of the job.

As far as pictures, I will try to remember to take some next time out. However, when I'm at events with my LS, my primary concern is my in running my LS, and not in taking screeniepics. Many times we've done something, and later I wish I had remember to take a pic.

Since most of the time I use SAM/RNG in Sea, I can give you an example from there:

On an Aw'Ghrah, typically a Sidewinder from my Shigeto Bow + Demon Arrow lands for 750-800 damage.

It varies slightly from mob to mob because the mob level changes, but on Aw'Ghrah I am at my capped attack level. I have very good gear, but not "ultimate" gear, and I have 6/8 Archery Merits so far (45k to go for 8/8).

Here's the issue...

SAM Archery Skill caps at 230.
Add 8 Merits and that's 246.
Add a Hope Torque and that's 253.

That still puts it as not even a B+ skill rating (Lower than WHM Club skill), and we're talking about someone that either is a very dedicated SAM/RNG or also has RNG 75 to have the merits and the Torque.

At 253 Skill, you will be hitting your ranged attack cap almost definitely, IF you can hit the mob.

Because SAM/RNG have to dump so much into ranged accuracy as compared to a RNG, they have to sacrifice a lot in raising their spike damage potential. That's why gear pieces like Kirin's Osode and Seiryu's Kote are so big for SAM/RNG. They give you both Accuracy and WS Mods on the same pieces. SAM/RNG can't use Crimson Finger Gauntlets or I'd want to try them out.

Compare that with the 297 Great Katana skill that you have with 8/8 Merits and Bushinomimi, or the 304 that you have if you add in a Justice Torque.

51 Skill Levels is an enormous difference. HUGE.

If you need more than that, go cap your Archery, spend a few million (yes, a few million) gearing up your SAM/RNG adequately, find a group of people to go tank and heal for you so you can show someone on another server, and take some screenshots. Not trying to be a jerk, but think about what you're asking someone to do because you won't take them at their word.

I guess now I need to make a SAM/RNG Sidewinder Item Set and link it....

that is what im currently doing. pre buying and collecting the gear i need for both setups. using my STR gear i have from my DRG setups almost all of it carrys over minus a few pieces.

throwing in a few TP items and rotating out gear trying to see the diffrent balances to both. i may have come off harsh. not meaning to but i get anoyed sometimes when its if you dont have or do this you suck at SAM. i dont like to just follow everyone else. i keep expermenting to see what works best per setup and party build.

as stated Soboro is a awsome weapon. the current sam weapons i have borrowed and or bought. all act diffrent. depending on job. i either hit harder or faster or miss or hit more often.
i cant and wont judge on a higher level of sam

but what i will say is at my current level the Soboro is still a awsome weapon to use. just plan on not eating any food casue you cant keep it for longer then 5 mins lol. stupid birds. i cant waito hit 65 in the next day or so to try out Gekko on both swords and mix and match Skill chains.

i have been eyeballing a few other GK for higher level useage well see how it goes then. later peeps good topic for those wantingto know more about Soboro and hagan

While I barely escaped with my life after being nearly crushed by that WOT moose, you make some really good points. It's really nice to read some alt hagun uses w/o it being complete idiotic bull crap.

For most people I wouldn't suggest going sam/dnc to merit, but utility > epeen. My ls did ix'drg the other night and was on sam/thf after some faiths (hurray torque :D :D) and i was also on pet duty and the whole time i cursed myself for not changing to /dnc for it.

As far as /rng, I find only usefull for kited fights really, unless you have Yochi of course. With the rise of pole sam and the introduction of weapons like Tomoe, anything that you would really see the benefit of the piercing bonus from /rng you should easily be able to out do that with a pole. For things like Fort and like that dumb T3 znm fish on the Tyger path, /rng is very very good.

Moose is right though, that sobo does last forever, just in certain situations. Cleary /dnc its king and nothing can even come close (maybe love stick but thats silly). Also, its almost a must have if you use sam in salv. At the lower floors when you are very gear restricted normal GKT delay will drive u crazy.

Want to say thx to Moose again for listing some alt ways to play sam w/o sounding like a jack ***. Personally I do a few different things on some of the mobs he listed but everything he listed is viable choices.

Oh and one thing that I've seen a few times on the sam related threads, is people mentioning that they don't like hagun on /thf b/c the bonus is wasted having to wait on SATA or for a SC partner. To that let me just say, just b/c you have SATA or a partner doesn't mean you have to wait on them. Lots of times if I'm on Sam/thf i'll SATA WS on the tank, tp up, ws one or two more times while the timer is down then just SATA ws when timer is ready.

When i parse out on sam its usually more like 25/75 or 30/70 (tp/ws)

As far as doing things differently, try not to take Mooses advice to the letter for sea gods. I don't mean that in a bad way, just that there are a lot of different strategies out there for sea gods so it's quite possible that you won't end up killing jailers anything like how Mooses shell does it. (His techniques bear absolutely no revelance to half of the jailers the way my shell do them, not saying either is right or wrong though of course)

I thought it was Soboro they didn't like with /thf? Makes more sense since you WS twice as often. *shrug*

Lower than I thought, but 25-30% is still a decent chunk, so my point stands, melee damage is not to be forgotten.

One of my favorite SAM on Odin is "gimp" by most endgame standards when you look at his gear. Certainly next to my SAM he looks that way. He had a Soboro way before I did, and I know for a fact that it's one of the most prized things for him in the game. It's the same way about my Noble's Tunic.

I worked and waited so long for one, that when I finally got one as a goodbye gift from a long time friend, it's more meaningful to me than if I'd just bought it.

Still I'd do anything for the guy and I always am glad to have him around because he:

a) Never forgets that it's about having fun

b) Follows instructions

c) Is willing to try almost anything at least once

Happily, he's getting back from a short break soon, not only because I miss the guy, but also because pretty much anyone that passed him in line for Byakko's Haidate while he was away has gotten them recently (two this week), so he's back at/near the front of the line. I can't wait to see him get his pants.

In fact, any day someone in my LS gets Haidate, W.Legs, or any Sea Torque reminds me of why I love doing this.

Of course, if fact the things he listed are situational alts. I have never fought any jailer in this manner and most likely will not, since what we do already works well. It was just nice to hear and alt that wasn't complete BS.

Sobo /thf is silly yes, but alot of people were saying that they didn't like Hagun b/c when they are /thf they are always @200+ tp waiting on their partner or SATA timer, so therefore using oni/ushi/shin is better. I was just responding to that way of thinking.

Hurray Wall of Text!

I try to at least break it up into coherent sub-sections, so I hope that helps.

And yes, the way we do Sea Jailers is not the ONLY way to do them. We tried and alternate strategy on Prudence once and it didn't work well, so we are back to doing it the same way we did before. We used to have a tank that could straight tank Faith (And Kirin for that matter) but he retired from FFXI.

I just wanted to give some ideas of how versatile SAM can be depending on your gear and the needs of the situation (including how Soboro factors into it), not to mention your personal style.

I think that's what most people are getting out of it, so that's a good thing. I hate to see cookie-cutter players who just automatically do what everyone else does without trying anything else first. You may just stumble across some things that work that aren't posted anywhere.

That's how my old social LS made money back in the day, selling Mannequin parts. We found (through experimentation) asimple, repeatable without 2-hour, way to beat the BCNMs. Mannequin hands sold for 1M at the time, overnight.

Other times, you end up finding out that your idea was really really bad.

I did CoP 8-2 with SAM/DNC and RDM/NIN duo (We had just been collecting map Quasi's and found ourselves at the NM pop). Nothing like dropping a 6-Part Darkness (4-way L2 wheel to L3 Darkness) with Magic Bursts landing on 4 of 5 Skillchains.

There was nothing in the books that said to do it that way. It's about knowing your job inside and out, and being able to come up with what you think "might" work, then seeing if you can pull it off. Wiki let me know what the mobs HP was, and about the pop conditions (form and element) and after that, it was trying to find a way to put out 9k damage before we died (1:32 from pop to win).

BTW, I did take video of that, but it's done at high res, so the file is too big to post on YouTube or anything without screwing with it first.

My first 75 was White Mage (Aramina), followed by Bard (Aramina), then Samurai, then Paladin.

"Growing up White Mage" has definitely affected the way that I play ALL of my jobs. I almost always /WHM for Bard (except Bird camp), I use SAM/DNC when other people use SAM/NIN (and I understand about how an MP sink DD kills a party), and it definitely affects the way I play Paladin.

Prudence is a dirty ***, if you find a way that works, stick with it :p

In the minutes pre-pop I usually do...

/propose linkshell "How many Sidewinders will Moose actually land on JoP?" 0 1 2 3 4 5+

Similarly, for Love I use...

/propose linkshell "How many times will Quixacotl die during JoL?" 0 1 2 3 4 5+

He's usually tank party Bard (for Ultima, too), and as a Taru, that can be rough on the little guy. He actually has a CB gear set for BRD...

We finally gave RDM/PLD tank a try last time and it worked remarkably well, so we have a 2nd RDM/PLD working on a JoL Tank setup ^^ Huzzah for trying something new and having it work (And for Elvaan RDM/PLDs).

Prudence ain't that bad, easily done with 8/9 people, I know some rdm Duo it also.

Rdm/pld is pretty accepted by really high end players as a great tank in correct situations

Until about the mid 60s. Then the DMG comes into play at 60. I used a Gold Musketeer's Uchigatana and 65 I used Onikiri (Hate teh Mire). You can probaly go as high as 67, but most career SAM's I've talked with have swapped out at 63 or 65 then again around 72 or 73. The only time I've heard of a SAM using S.S past 60 was when they were /RNG or /DNC.