BLU In Delve

Just want to point out, it's used by any bow user who is fighting a piercing weak mob and doesn't have Yoichi. Apex is plenty sufficient to melt the bee.

Since I like to actually play my different jobs I've done BLU in each of the three original Delve zones. It's JADD (Just Another DD) in Morimar, aoe erase is useful for when slowga goes off and -25% defense from Bilgestorm is nice for a quick burst of damage followed by either F.Roar or BT to keep a -10% on. BLU can do mata fairly easily now, either prep with magic for a melee burn or vice-versa. It's more useful in Foret and Ceizek due to the need for different damage types or non-elemental damage. It's got solid damage on Shark, especially since you can switch to Req for the final 25% when it's resistant to slashing. Makes Cracklaw, Crab and Oberon easier. Can deal consistent predictable damage on bee, especially since Sinker is piercing. Terrors scorp to make it much less annoying under 50%.

BLU is pretty much the swiss army knife of DD's. It's adaptable to virtually any situation and will rarely find itself truly useless. A good BLU is a great asset to have in practice if not on paper. And reality always trumps theory.

You are way overstating Apex Arrow. It's decent... when it hits. Koga + Cibi + Apex spam is giving up a whole lot of racc to Tsu + Yoichi + Namas. Like 44 racc (less in practice, since you gear Apex for AGI). That's more accuracy than capped Archer's Prelude!

I far prefer Tsu + Yoichi, myself, for bee.


Actually, pre-REM update, you're probably right, MNK was beating a lot of other jobs and tying with Tsu SAM. Post-REM update, two-handers had clawed their way back. On neutral mobs, alliance buffs, I had mythic DRK/DRG/WAR/SAM all beating MNK by a little bit. In-game, monk was still hard to beat on say Tojil because of Formless (as others have pointed out).


If you can get enough attack and accuracy, polearm SAM with 5/5 Stardiver is extremely powerful. It's easy to 4-hit, just like Tsu under Ionis, and Stardiver is amazing. You lose the nice SC-ability of Fudo, though.

You just posted the WS values, Apex is competitive with Namas for all of those. Higher FTP, comparable mods especially since this isn't Fudo and you will be stacking Racc over STR/AGI anyways, and it has deals triple damage and a 15% defense ignore. Really the only reason Namas is even competitive with Apex is because of the 40% WS bonus from Yoichi.

44 Racc is not enough to make Namas good and Apex "Sh!t". The two weaponskills are in reality close. The difference between WS rate between Koga and Tsu is going to matter so much more.

Deals triple damage just means it has 3.0 http://fTP. There's no additional damage multiplier. In reality, Apex has a 5% WSC lead (or a 6.25% increase from 80 -> 85, but it's likely overtaken by the extra fSTR from additional STR WSC stacking anyway) and a relatively small amount of defense ignore, which is mostly meaningless for two reasons:

1) Should only be using these weaponskills with enormous attack buffs anyway

2) The 40% relic WSD overcomes not only the 5% WSC boost before even considering fSTR, but also the small difference in ratio that you're likely to see unless you're going to hold TP for exorbitant amounts of time.

2.95 * 1.4 = 4.13

Apex would get at most 3.2. 4.13/3.2 = 29% higher fTP effectively, since no DA/TA procs

This is before accounting for the additional accuracy on Namas which is a pretty major factor, especially since the subject at hand is Muyingwa. It's also before accounting for the fact that 5/5ing Apex isn't even worth doing. Overall, Apex really isn't very good.

You need every bit of r.acc you can get with SAM due to low skill and lack of traits. WS frequency IS better with Koga/Cibi but WS damage/accuracy is better with Tsu/Yoichi. I've found the latter to be preferable, to me, and I know no other samurai who has both Koga and Yoichi that uses Apex over Namas.

also SC properties.

Which is exactly my point, you can find one preferable but to say one is ***or that a Sam with Yoichi is way more competitive than one with Apex on bee is silly.

Yeah I knew I'd probably get smacked for making that 3x damage comment, you're right about that. I don't know about the attack thing though, I find it hard to believe that Namas is capping pdif with normal buffs. Looking at the spreadsheet even with Berserk, Minuet, Max Chaos, Fury, Frailty, Dia II I still don't have Namas capping pdif. 5/5ing Apex's worth is based completely on what you do and what you have access to.

Unless your only job is SAM and/or all you're doing is farming bee and lion, other weaponskills would be more effective.

That is very debatable. Most of the merit WSes are trash and there is no guarantee someone is going to play all of the jobs they aren't trash for. I certainly have more than enough room for Apex, ***someone in my LS has 5/5 Shoha and 5/5 Apex.

I thought this was a blue thread...can't beat them join em.....Got any updated Apex sets someone can post.

I have 5/5 Stardiver, 5/5 Shoha (rarely use this), and 5/5 Ruinator. I dropped Apex right before I finished Yoichi and wasn't sad to see it go.

edit:
LOL. We've totally trashed this topic in the BLU forum. I think there's a lesson to be learned here- SE just needs to remove all DDs from XI except SAM, RNG, and maybe MNK, because of blunt and formless. Then this forum could be a reasonably, orderly place.


It's not that I find one preferable. It's that Namas is flat-out better than Apex Arrow.

ItemSet 329749
Depending on what buffs you have and what merits you have you may need more or less racc from this set, you can always drop legs/back/body for better STR options.

I think this has got a little far from the original circumstances it was brought up in. The original comment is Apex is ***compared to Namas, which is obviously not true, and it was implied that without Koga and Yoichi a Sam would not be good on bee. Any real damage gains Namas has over Apex is sufficiently taken care of by the ability to have Kogas AM3.

youd be better off using a polearm and stardiver than apex in most cases, particularly for someone without access to Koga. don't understate the difference in accuracy. apex will need more of it than namas, which either means you lose buffs or lose pieces of gear toward straight WSC/attack. koga's AM3 only goes so far to alleviate this, especially when tsuru isn't very far behind for WS frequency at max buffs.

also if you have a koga, I expect you to have a yoichi. there really isn't an excuse.

best reason I can see for apex arrow to exist is that it can make some fair multistep SCs with Namas and Stardiver, but lol.

Several people have already disproved you on this. Namas gets that +40% WS damage along with having FAR superior mods. It's no contest. Apex is sh!t and you've failed to demonstrate otherwise. Also it wasn't implied that SAM wasn't good on Bee, only that other jobs can match or surpass it. This is due to Bee's damage mechanics where Fudo spam isn't optimal, and not any inherit flaw in SAM.

Of course your perceiving this as an insult to your religion and reacting exactly the same way creationists do when I point out inconsistencies in the old testament that indicate it's a collection of myths, parables with some verbal history and not some divine truth passed on by some old white diety.

Anyhow this thread was about BLU being useful in Delve which is why I've brought up the various damage mechanics that BLU helps with. It's you SAM zealots who go around infecting every thread with your "convert or perish" mentality.

Proved? Other than Prothescar explaining Apex's FTP there has been absolutely no proof in this thread.

Koga has something like a 30% higher WS rate, that is far from negligible. Namas would need to absolutely gut Apex for it to be good and Apex to be ***not worth meriting.

I've always get better numbers with Namas than Apex this is due to the massive accuracy bonus on Yoichi. (however this is about BLU so take SAM stuff to Sam thread) While I understand you "feel" apex with a 30% increase in WS frequency is better without actually working out what the difference in accuracy actually gives you parse wise and the better damage on normally see with namas, no one is going to A. Care B. believe you. (I'm putting this everywhere because you seem to be ignoring this point and copying parts of the peoples posts)

I think you are failing to see how big accuracy (Again this is a BLU thread take your SAM discussion to SAM thread)is to your overall DPS and consequently the difference in gearing sets for namas over apex (IE massive amounts of STR vs Racc)

Nice a SAM set in a Blue Mage thread, didn't know BLU got Namas Arrow. (Trying not to be a *** here but seriously why have you posted this here and not in the sam thread / guide for discssion?)

30% under normal circumstances maybe, but when we're talking about ranged WS comparisons it's way less than that with Miser's roll, which Tsuru/Yoichi could totally use because it doesn't have to give up a buff slot or two for ranged accuracy.

as far as the blu thread thing, there really isn't a lot more to say about the actual topic. anyone who tries to imply that delve can't be done with basically any DD is a raving moron, and you probably don't want to play with them anyway.

This you can't assume x is better than y when you have not accounted for the different buffs you can use for one over the other which massively increases WS frequency.

As another important note: Koga encounters the issue of WS delay hampering WS frequency a lot sooner than any other weapon. This allows Tsuru to close the gap more easily, and is another variable that needs to be considered. It makes stronger weaponskills rather than more frequent weaponskills even more important.

Last i checked, my sam in melee gear was around 100 acc over my racc, so i would need at least 100 racc during ws to land apex withh capped accuracy, suposing my melee gear was caping accuracy. That was a huge amount, and would require some exclusive buffs like prelude and sushi instead rcb to cap racc in mega bosses, then i just went toward yoichi. At least, with extra racc aside bow stats and aftermath, could at least avoid messing with buffs, as asking preludes would reduce dmg during melee phase.

But nowaday is easier, as you dont really need to increase your racc through gear, buff and food if you can consider distract and geo torpor, as those 2 jobs became pretty popular nowaday.

Wait so mine is just a feeling when I talk about Apex with a Koga, but your "I've always got better numbers" anecdote isn't? As mentioned last page, 40~ ranged accuracy, it's a decent chunk but it isn't "massive". Especially compared to a 30% WS rate increase.

Someone asked for it, I posted a response, honestly sounds like you are being a *** for this post not me.

Basically, it would be more "How does Blu handle matamata!?"

This is of course a factor, however it is likely completely negated by the extra white DPS Koga will put out. Miser's Roll is interesting, I'm not entirely sure how viable though.

Slashing white damage on Muyingwa and Utkux (only really viable things that are worth talking about) as a positive point...? uuuuuuh... if we're gonna use white damage as a basis for comparison then polearm breaks both combos.


also miser's roll is completely viable in delve, not sure why it wouldn't be. unless you're using koga/cibi, in which case yeah totally you need hunter's roll. miser's brings you down to a 3hit (with a 4 or better, not even hard), it's pretty substantial.

It's not like slashing white damage is a non factor, it's going to get substantially worse every 25% of Muyingwa but it will still matter. Probably more or at least as much as Koga loses from over TPing which was my point.

Not even close. You'd be lucky to get an extra 150-200 damage per WS cycle. The whole point of using archery to begin with is that slashing damage on the target sucks. Then we need to consider wasting a WS (more like 2 WSs since it's 300TP, accounting for overTP) on Rana just to put up AM3 to begin with.

Obviously slashing damage is weak on that target, but it's being compared to damage loss from over TPing with Koga vs Tsu, which isn't exactly a gigantic deal itself. For Rana you can just use it in the first phase and your WS loss won't be bad, only really a problem if the fight goes past 3 minutes.

You're grasping at straws at this point. Do you have any actual substance left to add to this or are we done here?

How is white damage grasping at straws but over TP rounds aren't? We are probably done here though, was fun.

Because you're comparing a negligible amount of damage that doesn't even cover for the difference between weaponskill damage, let alone the difference between the two weapon combo's WS frequencies. Let's not even talk about Namas self skillchaining while Apex doesn't, which makes the white damage thing even more pointless.