[Dev] SCH - Regarding Cure V And Regen

The storm idea is a fantastic idea. adding magic attk to hailstorm etc...

the only benefit of embrava+2brds+3smn vs 3brds+3smn, is the regain,regen from embrava. Attack speed caps with embrava and haste. so PD, hastega, embrava, minuetx2 and madrigalx2? which for most current zergs is a bit overkill.

The only reason my sch is coming to events is cause im mithra, and the skirt looks hot in screen shots! lolz

The only issue I had with Cure IV was the enmity generated, but with the addition of some decent cure potency & increased hp cured it should be ok.

Just used to suck having to compromise cure potency for -enmity when I used to dual box / low man with RDM.

I whole-heartedly agree with the comments about healing magic skill. Let it play a bigger factor at the expense of mp cost or something (maybe increase the cap on cures 1-4 by 20-25%, negligible on 5&6).

Also, I'd really appreciate a higher cure potency cap. This would help whm predominantly since the other jobs are just starting to reach 50%, but it could be a nice little "whm is still king" if they boost the healing abilities of rdm&sch.

Afflatus Solace does that...

I don't think that would quite be the case, especially if we consider another hypothesys that they don't seem to have considered, at least from the post.

Give RDM and SCH a gimped Cure V!
It will cure a bit less than WHM's C5.
It won't have the reduced enmity bonus that C5 has for WHM.
It won't have Cureskin.
It won't be cast as fast as WHM's one (well... RDM actually might achieve to cast just as fast :P)

They could also make it cost more MP or whatever else.
GIMP C5. It won't ruin's WHM's dominance as the main healer of the game (something I can support) but at the same time it would make SCH and RDM as more viable option for many other situations.

When you think about it... it feels very strange.
Only people who have extensive experience with other "big" MMOs can probably fully understand what I'm about to say, but it's very strange for a MMO to have 20 different classes, and have only 1 "real tank" and only 1 "real healer".
Very very strange...

I mean, I can understand having a job that does something better than another, each job should have its pros and cons, but healers and tanks are very important roles in what has been the MMO model since when the "Holy Trinity" model was created.
I'm not saying every MMO should try to follow that model, but it they don't want to, they should at least offer valid alternatives.

Atm in FFXI either you have very easy content (because it's easy, or because your level is higher than the content's) or "hard".
For the first you have a high degree of freedom, and even jobs not meant to tank can do it (often even better, which is a bit ironic) and same for healers.
For the second you definitely need PLDs and WHMs. And even so you won't have easy times, because your PLDs most likely are gonna need either Ochain or Aegis, or both, which is another debateable game design option.
Making so a certain item makes content easier/smoother is ok, making so some content becomes almost impossible without it's kinda... I dunno, probably not the best game design option out there.


SE had a chance to fix this tendency with the level cap increase, 24 new levels through which they could have added a lot of new JAs, "stances", spells etc, and reworked hate mechanics.
They could have "fixed" everything but clearly they decided to do things differently.


When I look at things from this "external" and "rational" point of view I kinda enter in conflict with myself.
The "me" that still loves FFXI above every other MMO (there has to be a reason why this happen, no?) and the "me" that finds this all particularly anachronistic and the fruit of people who clearly haven't played other MMOs and have no clue how to balance things out but are just trying to put water in the soup to make it last as long as possible while they're busy doing something else with other games.

Thing is whm has so much over sch and rdm on cure even if u do not count cure 5 and 6.

Cureskin, better access to gear for cureing as well as merits, great barspell bonuses<this seems overlooked in most of these threads>, and not to mention esuna and other tid-bits that are useful.

The idea of making lower tier cures strong seems like a good fix i suppose, since SE seems intent on making things complicated, i just hope since they are going this route they also add more cure friendly gear options to go along with it as while just now we are seeing capable cure cap options for non-whm it still remains cure 1-4 and this remains not just weaker at restoring hp but also worse at staying alive as you will be eating hate quick, which will be much more notable on rdm as sch are at least getting the regen thing <as gimmicky as that will most likely be on anything worthwhile>

tl:dr
whm has far more then just cure 5 and 6 and i hope they realize 1 healer job is a bad idea <cant name u 1 main whm who isnt aggravated at not being able to play any other job>

Actually bard has 2 merit songs that do the exact same thing. Bards do not typically sing these songs, but they are there.

SCH also has helix spells which are exclusive to their job (right now). Once they do the job adjustments, they will be /sch accessible.

I agree that each job should have unique job abilities/traits/spells/etc and am not trying to devalue your post. Just throwing that out there.

RDM will now even be more useless. Cure IV at 99 wat?

I more or less agree with SE on that one, however, using Cure 5 as a white mage "exclusive" thing is a poor excuse when both PUP automatons and NPC fellows have access to it. Granted both are diluted in comparison to the capacity WHM can use it, it still remains a non-exclusive spell.

I thought the point of SCH was to be versatile that is how they are unique. I agree there are not many situations where versatility has really helped. PUP is also a versatile job. Which is why I think it is devalued.

If I remember correctly, when WoG first came out, the developers said something along the lines that they never anticipated the popularity of SCH being a main job and that their primary purpose of creating it was to give a more viable subjob option to existing mage classes.

But with that said, I think SCH excels pretty well on it's own for what it was supposedly meant to do. The only thing is it excels in one aspect of magic more so than the other; and frankly that's fine with me. Giving them all the cake would just be too easy.

Not much exclusivity considering sch is basically SE combining whm and blm aspects.

With that being said its hard to update sch without hurting other jobs sch already nukes like a blm and has reduced mp costs, increasing that category would already hurt blm players more than they already complain about it.

Theres no reason to give sch(or rdm) cure V, instead increase the amount cured, this keeps the curing gap between whm and the other mages adequate but also fixes the problem the amount of HP cured. All in all I dont think curing for 800-ish per cure IV would be all that bad. SE is firm in thought with sch and rdm being just healing supports to a whm, thus 800-ish is plenty of hp cured for support along with if need be, being able to get the job done alone if need be or take over for sometime.

I think the regen with added bonus is a great idea and as horrible as sch as a job was, I think SE should have gone with that kind of role for sch, an actual support like that, special bonus etc for the spells/abilities they provide. Sch should have been more of a geomancer type of job with special bonus imo. Just feels like a whm and blm messed together forming a rdm+1 and really not giving it something more.

I dont want to come off like I hate sch, I just feel like it was an unnecessary job to add imo. And with that right now its having balancing issues with having to settle as a support job while not stepping on other job's toes.

For the second you definitely need PLDs and WHMs. And even so you won't have easy times, because your PLDs most likely are gonna need either Ochain or Aegis, or both, which is another debateable game design option.
Making so a certain item makes content easier/smoother is ok, making so some content becomes almost impossible without it's kinda... I dunno, probably not the best game design option out there.

this is cause everyone Q.Q'd about pld sucking so instead of making it awesome from its own job they gave them ultimate defensive shields in an atempt to rebalance. Wouldnt it make more sense to just increase Acc on new mobs to where evasion becomes highly inferior to blood tanking (not just VW either).

On topic tho what is everyones descrepency with having a whm in pty X.X

when you got 5 jobs they can all be different and unique when you got 20+ jobs it blurs, then it blurs even further when you add a /sj.
the original OP had a sweet idea to enhance but the more we try to get spells added that highlight a jobs individual strengths the less defined jobs are.

rdm refresh, backup cure, and enfeeb. do you job
sch back up cure, regain, and nuke. do your job
whm cure and buff. do you job

if they do give you guys c5 and then they add something to whm to balance such as haste2 (random idea) you guys are just gonna Q.Q about that too.

Maybe I'm missing what you're trying to say but... were you trying to say that it's easy to make jobs feel different when you only have a few of them and it's hard when you have 20?
I agree up to a certain point, but that shouldn't become an excuse.

Take WoW. It has 10 classes with 3 (4) different specs for each, atm you have at least 31 main specs, they by all means should be considered as different jobs, since most of those specs really play in completely different ways.
Let's group them by role, you have: (sorry for possible mistakes, tryin to sum it up quickly)

4 possible Tanks (Protection Paladin, Protection Warrior, Blood Death Knight, Feral Druid)
each have their own peculiarities, pros and cons, but more or less they all can do their job very good, no *** way a DD could be a tank in real current content, not even close...

5 possible healers (Discipline Priest, Holy Priest, Restoration Druid, Restoration Shaman, Holy Paladin)
they all can be main halers and they all play very differently. Each have their pros, each can do a good job at healing

1 ranged physical DD (Ranger)

5 ranged magical DD (Mage, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Elemental Shaman, Balance Druid)

6 melee DD (Frost/Unholy Death Knight, Fury/Arms Warrior, Enhancement Shaman, Rogue, Feral Druid, Retribution Paladin)

We could say similar things for Rift, and trust me Rift has a far greater range of combination, for example the Supporter role and hybrid classes are present just like in FFXI, whereas they got "killed" in WoW over time.

Now Rift and WoW aren't free from balance issues, but overall it feels like a much better design compared to Game Designers aiming to balance a game with 20 classes and only 1 "real" tank and only 1 "real" healer.
FFXI could have been just the same as those 2 games, balance-wise. They just chose NOT to.
Guess they have their reasons, I don't wanna be so arrogant to say they are wrong (after all FFXI is still the game I like most), but let me at least call this choice "debateable"? Can I at least define it that way?

Well considering according to SE WHM is not a buffer, Haste II would piss RDM off when SE claims they are.

I suspect the Q.Q as you put it will die down if they actually made Enfeebling worth anything.

That said if you think the only thing WHM has going for it is Cure V shame on you.

I was dual boxing myself on whm and my mule on rdm in dyna last night and definately could not keep up with cures on the rdm and ran out of mp way to fast. Probably due to the fact that whm af3+2 pants help with this and cure potency on my whm doesnt mean I am limited to c4, but I can do c3's instead.

I would definately like to get a little boost at least in c2 and c4 for my rdm.


With this I will say that as soon as I am done with my Ukon (31 more scales) I probably will not touch my war at all due to the high demand of my lsmates and friends needing me on whm. My poor war. QQ

Yah i was happy when i saw this. if this does happen rapture+cure4 should be able to pull even nicer numbers. Currently i hit 1-1.1kish cure4s(outside of course) with rapture which is fine. Being able to alternate 3 and 4 would be great. Now MOAR strategems would be nice or reduce the timer at 99 please!

SCH is not meant the easy-mage-of-all-trades job. Someone expecting to play the job class, should have experience in the other mages classes prior as well as willing to endeavor into GOOD, and when i say GOOD, Im talking fastcast set, cure pot, enmity reduction set, enhancing set, nuke sets, helix set, blah blah so that they can do a decent job at whatever roll.

Its supposed to be the "i have no inventory space for drops" and the "macro's from hell job." And if u like the job ur masochistic like that!

Yah its quite bad that phalanx from RDM is weaker than SCH's phalanx. I thinK haste2 would just salt the wound.

In regards to cure V, I feel the problem is that the gap between cure IV and V is too large. Simply make a cure that comes between them somehow and give it to every job with innate healing magic. Anything being able to /WHM or /RDM and get a non-WHM's top cure is just as infringing as RDM or SCH main getting cure V.

Also...


Am I reading this right? The ability to alliance-target regen would be SCH-only? I really hope not.

(Disclaimer: this is only an OPINION)

Few things I think either people are forgetting to look at or may not have noticed:

A few of these comments have been made in regards to experiences inside of Abyssea. While thats fine and dandy, atmas play a huge roll in how effective a WHM can perform curing duty (i.e. MM, Apoc if you REALLY want insta cast cures, and any other refresh atma or +MND one since that immensely affects Cures). Inside of Abyssea, yeah WHM is the main cure bot, which is what WHm can really do. Cure. It's where they excel >_>

As for outside of Abyssea, yeah tossing out Cure V and VI (inefficient outside of Abyssea like mentioned before), your mp will also run out faster. at 135mp and 227 mp (122 and 205 under Light Arts) yes WHm can toss out big cures, but will have to rest more frequently than a SCH or RDM would have to.

Yes, I understand the pain of not being able to toss out massive cures (I have WHM RDM and SCH 95), but if you were to (yes I know it's crazy) think outside of Abyssea, Refresh II for RDM and the increased charge rate for SCH give them more longevity than WHM does.

With SCH increased Regen potencies coming out soon and with the already high fast cast for RDM, they will last longer without having to rest more frequently than a WHM would need to. and they can both AoE Phalanx party members to help shave of some damage taken (may not be a lot, but every little helps)

In response to Automatons getting Cure V, how often to you invite a PUP to party? -_-; honestly (I think PUP is a fun job, but rarely gets credit for what they can do) Besides, I doubt PUPs full-time WHM unless they are soloing.

In response to having 20 jobs, over the past years players have been asking for more and more unique jobs:

Consumer: I wanna use enemy skills!
SE: Here's Blue mage!

Consumer: I want another pet job, that's more versatile and i have more control over. Yeah SMn has pacts but i have to wait too long between moves. BST has pets, but they always attack after AoE's hit them. DRG wyverns are cool and all, but they just.... attack and use breaths when I use a ws or cast magic at low hp. I want MORE control!
SE: Here's Puppetmaster!

Consumer: Guns never get used! Rangers always main bows, I want something that LOVES guns!
SE: Okay... er... Corsair!

Consumer: I never get to melee on RDM! I'm always yelled at for not keeping up haste/refresh cycles and for trying to raise my sword/dagger skill! I want to do more enspell damage!
SE:... okay... fine we'll introduce a more strategic mage class that focuses more on magic: Scholar. This will allow you to focus more on other things like melee skills. We'll give you enspells tier 2, spells that effect your combat, and ability that increases your accuracy (Composure), and we'll give other jobs more +haste gear and +refresh gear so you won't have to worry about those cycles.

Consumer: so I'm kind of bored ONLY using tp for weaponskill! Can we have something that uses tp in other ways?
SE:... really? ....Dancer it is!

I think you give SE too much credit. The reason RDM and SCH aren't as comparatively good is because they share too much with other jobs now. Red Mage enfeebles well but there's hardly anything in the game that you can't enfeeble on any mage job with an enfeebling set. The added benefit of the tier II spells would be lucrative in an 18 man alliance but not really in a low man party or a 6 person party for that matter and Refresh II suffers from the same problem it's nice but it's still unnecessary now.

As for scholar they suffer from the same general downfall in that they don't really have anything in particular at which they excel. In addition they share almost all of their spells with other jobs. What I would really like to see with RDM and SCH is diversity and something useful. Adloquim is a nice diverse spell but it's pretty gimp and the enmity spells don't really matter considering everyone pulls hate if they're a DD regardless of enmity it just adjusts how long until they do. This adds up to a job that has a certain novelty and some situational things but it's generally the same job without cure 5, aoe nukes, and !! procs. Sure being able to AoE break things is nice but they just give blms breakga so there's not as much diversity even there. (not that anyone really cared about break)

The level cap increase has only taken away the uniqueness of these jobs and the whole Abyssea fiasco pigeon holed everyone into being a BLM or WHM. People aren't Q_Qing over this as much as they're just hoping to have their jobs diversity and uniqueness restored. I'm not sure but I highly doubt that the Regen boost is going to make up for low cures. While they don't "Need" cure5 they should at least have a means by which they can sustain a tank and honestly enfeebling and regen is a way to do that but it generally doesn't cut damage enough to make up the difference.


Lol, only took them how many years to make it what it should have been? That is assuming this next update is as awesome for pup as it seems. I swear to god if it silences a damn clipper I'm going punching someone tho.

All in all they do seem to get around to adjusting these things it just seems to take them years to get the message. Which in that case *** on it seems they're pretty hard of hearing and maybe if ppl repeatedly complain they'll actually do something.

RDM don't need Cure V.

SCH is a support healer
RDM is a support healer
DNC is a support healer because of timers.
DRG can be a support healer but that's kinda weird.
AnyJob/WHM is a support healer
BLU I guess can be a healer/support healer if it wanted to, still kinda weird.

Even SMN/WHM for your qufim party is a support healer even if you can't find a whm to join your party. (by "you" I mean to everyone, not necessarily you Galith)

They are giving SCH such an advantage with regen, seriously. They are most likely going to allow them to cast regen on all parties in the alliance from the recent dev postings to give SCH that edge. That speaks for itself.

With that said, Cure VI was for abyssea and whm really only should be using up to Cure V. Just because other jobs don't see it that way doesn't mean it isn't true.

I'm not sure why more people aren't using WHM's, it is, by census reports, the most popular job in the game. There should be no reason they can't find a WHM to do a good job. This isn't the time to be using WHM cure bots anymore for the people who did stuff on their own for the past year, there are actually whm's out there that are better than those silly bots people rely on so much now.

Get a "real" WHM and stop asking for Cure V for jobs that aren't WHM's. You have other tasks that should be on your mind and if curing is an issue with the WHM's (or WHM) you have in your group then you need to either:

1. Get more WHM's
   

2. Find a better WHM

I'm not sure why these jobs should even be concerned with healing when WHM is perfectly capable to handle it, even if you have 1 WHM in your group that should be plenty. You really shouldn't need any more than that, any more than 1 is a luxury and to be honest starts to make the fight more boring for me since I don't have to cure more than 1 party. The only reason you should need more than 1 WHM is if your setup is bad, and your group is taking stupid amounts of dmg.

The only reason I think anyone would want these jobs to have Cure V was if they wanted to stop using WHM's all together. Maybe to free up a spot for another DD or something idk, or maybe none of the members in that group enjoy playing whm and would rather be on RDM or SCH where they have more to do than just healing so they can multitask better.

Don't see why WHM is such a hard thing to come by where people want to ask for Cure V. Maybe they are on these jobs and have trouble trusting the current healer at doing their job (I get that way, it's sick but a lot of main whm's I know also have said they feel this way).

And again, this isn't directed at you Galith I'm just venting honestly.

All I have to say regarding this is: keep bitching about Cure V.
If there's one thing I have come to expect from SE is that "No" doesn't mean NO.



just gotta give them a couple of years to get the hint ;)

I find it rather cumbersome when looking at what RDM, SCH, BLM and WHM have, then take a look at BLU, which can do all of the above. Plenilune Embrace can become as potent as WHM Cure VI, and Magic Fruit as potent as Cure V. Of course that being said, it seems BLU is more tactical than SCH in that respect, because it can nuke and enfeeble all in the same spell, ontop of being able to erase most effects. If you can't remove a spell effect with blue spells, sub whm, and voila.

Edit: Blue Mage and White Mage seem to be the only two jobs which can utilise the Tranquil Heart job trait to reduce emnity when curing. So I can more than understand the furstration of RDM and SCH's QQing.

With respect to Final Fantasy's roots, RDM in the original Final Fantasy (I) got all the same low-level curative spells that WHM got (I think at the same-ish time, too?), but as the game progressed, RDM no longer received the higher-level cures.

I know FFXI is obviously a different game, but in many ways, S-E has tried to "stick to tradition" in FFXI. To be honest, I wouldn't expect to see RDM receive any higher-potency cure spells, even @ lvl. 99. The ToAU expansion brought about a great preference for RDM (over WHM), and I believe the S-E developers viewed this as a mistake or miscalculation. Fairly certain they are intent on ensuring that WHM is "in a class by itself" as the ideal healing job for FFXI now, and I don't foresee that changing.

Wasn't this a SCH thread anyways?

Yah they also said theyd be modifying the formulas for c3 and c4. As well as adjusting SCH's regain spell with equipment. Anyways SCH can already hit nice numbers on c4. I think some schs (rdms too) need to maybe work on better cure sets. Abyssea time is over. No more full-timing teal set ok?! Also no more light staffs. If ur serious about healing

1) Get a surya's +3 (it does not take long at all the worst part is the the bottled pixie part)
OR
2) invest in Tefnut's and genbu


My current cure set on sch. (Its not perfect and no luck on heka stupid greedy ahriman VWNM)
But i can hit 1.1~k with rapture and 600ish w/o good enough to keep peops alive and do other random things like regain, and process.

Sadly, I believe the census shows a higher-than-expected number of WHMs because so many players maintain a second/alt/mule character that mainly functions as a WHM. This probably skews the data considerably.

The other thing I've noticed, on many occasions, is that many or most players that have level 90-95 WHM on their main characters don't bother to gear/equip it well, or even bother acquiring all of the spells/scrolls. It's quite common to for players to heavily invest gil and effort into perfecting a melee job's TP and WS sets, but carry around NQ Light Staff and Noble's Tunic for their WHM. I've even heard from a reliable source inside a prominent endgame Linkshell that many so-called endgame players don't even understand the concept/importance of Cure Potency+% equipment, and don't know that WHM AF3+2 body gives +2/tic auto-Refresh.

I've never understood the general aversion among FFXI's players towards playing WHM. It's a vital role in almost any group endeavor in FFXI. I suppose people either wilt under the pressure placed upon a WHM in difficult battles, and others probably just can only envision themselves with axes/swords/fists.

Regardless, I know I'm not alone when saying that FFXI's players (in general) need to stop slacking when developing and equipping their WHMs.