I'm not trying to say that all religious people are racist. I was trying to use an example of something that would very obviously have effects on everyone around them.
I'll use a few different examples this time.
I am not religious, so why should it matter if I want to purchase alcohol on a Sunday?
I want to learn about sex education. All they teach is abstinence.
I want to go to the bank on December 25th, but I can't.
You may not see it but religion is tied into everything. I can't do the things I want to because of the rules and restrictions imposed by religious people. That is why it bothers me.
Okay, I see what you are saying now. Those were MUCH better explanations. I do agree, to a certain extent, on some of what you're saying.
It is an inconvenience to not be able to buy alcohol on Sundays, although they don't enforce that everywhere now. Things ARE changing. But, like most things in the government, it's just taking a really long time.
Now, about Sex Education... In public schools, teachers are not legally allowed to say that having sex before marriage is a sin anymore. They will tell them about STDs and such, but that is something that everyone should be warned about. The only time you will hear a teacher legally say that it is a sin is when it is inside of a religiously affiliated school. While I do think that one of the major reasons we have abstinence programs in schools is because of religious influence, I don't think that it is only due to it. Personally, I just think that most parents wouldn't want their kids having sex before marriage for the simple reason that most don't want their kids to be single parents. (And most parents don't want to know about their child's sex life or even know that they have one.) Why would most parents want to watch their kid struggle being a single parent, when it's hard enough being married and having kids.
As far as not being able to do what you what because of religious influences goes, it does go both ways to a certain extent. If I wanted to pray at school, I wouldn't be able to because it's against the rules (at least where I live). Although, to tell you the true, I would probably never pray at my college anyway, since most Atheists would look at me like I'm a weird or something.
I just wish that everyone was more tolerable of each other in the world. Everyone is too easily offended and/or irritated by each other. We just need to learn that everyone is different than everyone else, and just except the fact that nobody has all of the same views as another. Everyone is their own individual and nobody has the right to try and change another person.
P.S: I am not really for trying to convert others into my religion, because it is not my place to do so. If they are curious and/or want to believe, then I am happy for them. I let people believe what they want, because I want them to do the same for me. I want them to know that the majority of Christians are actually good people. People usually don't notice the Christians that keep to themselves and mind their own business, because it's only the smaller percentage that are self-righteous and in your face. They make the rest of us look bad...
There are more religious than non religious people. Their customs and holidays are so deeply rooted into culture that I can not escape. Take Easter for example...go to the store and there is propaganda everywhere. Not to mention the price of eggs is ridiculous!
I don't know if you know, but being non-religious can get you discriminated against. Now I know you are going to counter that with being religious can get you discriminated against as well, but take into account there are MORE religious then non-religious people. You can't argue the fact that the majority of the United States is Christian or some variant of Christianity. Try and look at it from my point of view. I do try to understand yours (and I'd really like to know where it's illegal to pray at school, and what religion too) the best I can with the information I have.
Edit: Apparently I failed to hit the quote button.
Assuming god doesn't exist, Can science prove what's keeping the whole universe from falling apart? or what's keeping 4 seasons following each other and not a single one crossing the other's line?
at Tanzil.info you can read the never changed text of the holy Quran which is roughly 1400 years old, choose from the left bar Sura: 23 Al-Muminoon (Aya 12) and you will find the following:
"We created man from the finest extract of clay, (12) Then We placed him as a sperm in a firmly established lodging; (13) Then We fashioned the sperm into an embryo, then fashioned the embryo into a shapeless lump of flesh; then from the lump of flesh We fashioned bones, then clothed the bones with flesh. Thus We formed him into a new creation. So blessed be God the best of Creators. (14)"
Science is an important part of my religion, 1st word of the Holy Quran is "Read" and the whole religion encourages thinking and science in general.
I just wish that everyone was more tolerable of each other in the world. Everyone is too easily offended and/or irritated by each other. We just need to learn that everyone is different than everyone else, and just except the fact that nobody has all of the same views as another. Everyone is their own individual and nobody has the right to try and change another person.
The last sentence is exactly right, no one should ever desire to change another person. Doing so is a way of inflating one's ego and causing conflict. Instead, be who you are - openly and without the mind holding you back or warping your actions - and if you have been changed for the good, you will change others too. It will just happen.
Tolerance, however, is a very dangerous idea. The word tolerance has both good and bad uses, and its bad uses far outweigh the good. Yes, tolerance can be an understanding and patience for other ideas. But at the same time, it can be the suppression of intolerance, that is, everyone just puts up with each other.
What must be understood is that the thought of an action is the same as the action itself. You are always unconsciously influencing those around you. If you were to get angry at someone and wish violence on them, even if you didn't do anything physical to the other person, you are causing violence. Suppression of an idea without understanding causes the idea to be acted out in reality anyway, and in fact the person stopping themselves from doing it is the one who's really at fault.
Jesus pointed out the first point when he said how anyone who lusts after another woman than the one he's with has ALREADY committed adultery, just by thinking it.
Also, if you have the time, there's an interesting experiment you can do: if you have a small weight of some kind, like a washer, attach it to a string, and hold out your hand so that the string hangs down from it. Try to keep it steady. Then, think about the weight going back and forth. Just think. Imagine. And after that, try thinking about it going forwards and back. And in circles.
What you'll find is that the weight moves in the way you imagined it to go. Even though your intention was to not move your hand, it moved.
Returning to the subject, the reason why the person at fault is the person suppressing the negative actions, even if they are not connected in any way to the person who does them, is because that person is the SOURCE of the idea of bad action.
This directly applies to the foolishness of the 10 Commandments. Basically, they tell you to not do 10 bad things. But what they don't tell you is WHY. So, for instance, if you feel you want to steal from others, yet because you want to follow the 10 Commandments you don't steal, you are causing stealing in the world. It's important to realize that these 10 Commandments create only a false peace in a society that follows them. So do not follow through suppression and the adherence to an ancient dogma. Understand why it might be important to not do those things in the first place, and decide for yourself.
Thus, Tolerance can be a cause of war, even if it seems like a solution. Just because the feelings go unvoiced doesn't mean they aren't an influence in reality. So why tolerate others? By doing so, you do them violence. Instead, always seek understanding of yourself and those others, and the walls, which tolerance only casts a blanket over, will begin to crumble.
I just now got the chance to watch this video, and it's brilliant. Thank you.
People often make the mistake of thinking of science as replacing religion, while really, the simple dedication to the TRUTH, through scrutiny, destroys religions, and strengthens science.
Placing the act of scrutiny above the act of believing is an expression of what I said earlier: "all beliefs are false".
Why do we need our beliefs? Only to feel safe. Pursue truth instead. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it can't be wrong. And just because you believe something doesn't mean you shouldn't find out.
Assuming god doesn't exist, Can science prove what's keeping the whole universe from falling apart? or what's keeping 4 seasons following each other and not a single one crossing the other's line?
The seasons are merely an arbitrary designation we have to describe general patterns of hot, cool, cold, and warm weather. They vary by region and they are determined by the tilt of the earth (which is why it's winter in Australia now).
As to your former question, yes, science can prove anything if the evidence for it is there. Why do you assume that it is unexplainable and only God is keeping it from falling apart?
Ragnarok.Sequdaz said:
at Tanzil.info you can read the never changed text of the holy Quran which is roughly 1400 years old...
/facepalm
Please try to read at least the last few pages. The Quran is NOT an unchanged book. It has been subject to editing, compilation, censorship, and editorial processes in addtion to abrogation and the so called "satanic verses." And even if it was, it wouldn't matter if it was unchange if what it contained was still untrue.
Ragnarok.Sequdaz said:
...choose from the left bar Sura: 23 Al-Muminoon (Aya 12) and you will find the following:
"We created man from the finest extract of clay, (12) Then We placed him as a sperm in a firmly established lodging; (13) Then We fashioned the sperm into an embryo, then fashioned the embryo into a shapeless lump of flesh; then from the lump of flesh We fashioned bones, then clothed the bones with flesh. Thus We formed him into a new creation. So blessed be God the best of Creators. (14)"
Science is an important part of my religion, 1st word of the Holy Quran is "Read" and the whole religion encourages thinking and science in general.
I think it's great you want to be scientific. But I could point out that people aren't made of clay, we evolved from another species. It's fine if you take the above story as an allegory, but it's either an allegory (and therefore not literally true) or it's meant to be taken as true and contradicts scientific findings, and it can't be both.
"lol" yourself and don't take what I said out of context. I said:
Maruraba said:
And even if (the Quran was unchanged), it wouldn't matter if it was unchanged if what it contained was still untrue.
In other words, venerability and consistency doesn't mean that is is true. I think you would have a pretty hard time proving the Quran to be wholly factual, just like any religious text.
I'm not saying it can't be allegorical of something, and I am not saying that it's not all right for you to have faith. But intellectually, I just can't stand a self-congratulatory stance especially when it's so contradictory.
Science says we are the products of evolution. That's not even up for debate, and despite the Quran's fairly accurate representation of how a fetus/embryo grows, it still starts off with humans being created from clay without a progenitor. This is simply not true. There were quite a few hominid (human-like) species very long ago, our own species among them. We were all different branches from some other ancient ancestor species. If we were not, then God spontaneously created a species "in his own image" that was actually pretty similar to other species that already existed, which makes no sense.
My point is you have to accept that either the story is allegorical or it is meant to be taken literally. If it is meant to be taken literally, then it's untrue and just plain wrong. If it's allegorical, then it's true in some vague allegorical sense, but factually inaccurate. In either case, saying that science backs up your holy book's story (implying that it is superior or therefore the real deal) is wrong, because it clearly does not hold up.
Mabrook, why don't YOU try to prove it's not true?
If you feel you don't want to make an earnest effort, examine WHY. Because you think it will be futile? Why do you think that? Examining fairly how other people's views run contrary to your own is a good start.
Furthermore, always, always ask yourself honestly: if I did not believe these things, how would it affect my life in other ways? Ask again and again.
The first step to self-realization is understanding that you might be wrong. You might be lying to yourself. Don't immediately jump to conclusions and you'll find yourself thinking about what is really going on.
Another simple exercise would be to think about this: if you had not learned your beliefs, and if they weren't out there TO be learned (in books, from others, etc.), would you have been able to come upon those same conclusions on your own?
And btw, Maruraba's quote was slightly out of context
I still had the window of my response up from last night, so I had not seen the last exchange between Mabrook and Maruraba.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
To be accepted as a monkey's recreation, hmm... Na, I'd rather be turned from clay and believe that ^_^ The human body was the greatest creation God created; the universe with all it's largeness can not be compared to how the human body took form and became.
With regards to my last post Mabrook, this gives you some important insights into what you need to work on. Any belief that you hold for the sake of convenience or preference is false.
It's like this: if I want to believe people go to heaven when they die no matter what, because that seems nice, I might also have preference towards the idea of genocide, because all those people are going to heaven. Can you see how harmful that SEEMINGLY innocent idea is?
Furthermore, for your belief, you would rather feel a preference towards being a special species made from clay than a product of evolution. This is a very egotistical belief that clings to two very dangerous ideas: we are infinitely superior to animals, and scientific evidence can be ignored when it suits our self-interests.
While the point about animals may seem easy to argue against, its implications are not. The superiority complex imparted by this clay-origin story applies not only to you as a human being in relation to animals, but human beings like you in relation to human beings not like you.
I am not saying you think you're not open to others, but possibly you think you are closer to the truth for believing what you do, and that we are far away. Why do you think the clay-origin story feels so comfortable to accept?
The second point allows you to disregard science, a practice and a dedication to criticizing what is held as true, for the sake of pursuing the truth. With this mindset, ANYTHING you believe can override scientific reason, just because you feel like it would be better to believe it. In that sense, as the world around us becomes more and more revealed through science, your world would become smaller and smaller. Tell me, what is the greater experience: to know and understand the infinite (no matter how cruel it seems), or to become trapped within the confines and comforts of your mind?
Let me tell you, falsehood seems sweet for only the moment, truth lasts forever.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Maruraba said:
My point is you have to accept that either the story is allegorical or it is meant to be taken literally. If it is meant to be taken literally, then it's untrue and just plain wrong. If it's allegorical, then it's true in some vague allegorical sense, but factually inaccurate. In either case, saying that science backs up your holy book's story (implying that it is superior or therefore the real deal) is wrong, because it clearly does not hold up.
That's the whole idea ^_^ A test if you can accept the
unseen or not.
Unseen or otherwise, you claim it to be a reality. Unless you can experience and come up with it yourself, how can you claim it's the truth? Because it is written? No, you have no proof that they weren't telling lies.
And yes, you have no proof if they weren't telling the truth either, but the key is to find out for yourself. Discard beliefs and invite questions instead, and reality will begin to open up.
If you watch to the end, you'd learn that the lady actually DID accept the money, her kids fled to get their own homes, and she got gastric bypass, which is, you know, dark-sided, because it's losing weight in a way that god didn't intend. That's why this lady made me lol.
My cousin showed me this video today, thought it would be a cool thing to share:
An amazing video, I actually am studying christian theology right now. Weird path but from age 8-15 I was involved in the Muslim Church (A very loving and peace driven nation, don't equate them with the radicals). As many do became lost to much of anything but wordy desire through my early through late teens. And found salvation in Christ beyond that. I have also studied the 4 paths of Yoga and pillars of Buddhism for my own personal understanding. What is amazing to me is how we focus so much on what separates us, yet religion is quite linear. More so between the Muslim and Christian faith then any other. I would highly advise people take their personal prejudiced to one side or the other and truly explore these foundations. Knowledge is our freedom from ignorance, and prejudice is a lack of compassion due to limited understanding.
If you watch to the end, you'd learn that the lady actually DID accept the money, her kids fled to get their own homes, and she got gastric bypass, which is, you know, dark-sided, because it's losing weight in a way that god didn't intend. That's why this lady made me lol.
Posted at Weewoo's request.
^ this rofl. I remember watching this episode and I really fell on the floor laughing.
That's not to say I don't give credit and respect to those who use faith as a tool of self-empowerment in spirit, determination and patience. However, many seem to use it as an excuse to perform unjustified actions, such as alienating others who don't share their same line of understanding.
LOL so i watched that youtube video of the obese crazy woman and I really hope people arent judging all religous people on that extreme. yes, people can turn religion into an outlet for craziness but its more variables then "i'm religous so im crazy". I'm not a religous person myself but i respect it and I dont believe religous are all yelling "darksided!!!" the moment they're exposed to soemthing different
If you watch to the end, you'd learn that the lady actually DID accept the money, her kids fled to get their own homes, and she got gastric bypass, which is, you know, dark-sided, because it's losing weight in a way that god didn't intend. That's why this lady made me lol.
Posted at Weewoo's request.
^ this rofl. I remember watching this episode and I really fell on the floor laughing.
Ok, so I have not taken the time to watch this, but figured that I should since everyone is chatting about it. WOW, I mean really! God(Allah) is forgiving loving kind gentle and compassionate beyond human understanding. This is not accountable in any religious relevance or even ok by any social norm.
Be at peace with one another. This is far from peace, lol. @ one point you sit there staring in shock, then you think should I laugh, that is one scary lady.
that was kinda my point.. if my dog shits and pisses all over my rug, im not going to say his free will is responsible, and/or that hes bad for doing it. that would make no sense since IM the one that penned him up.. IM the one that set it all up to happen. how can you fault the dog ?
Think about a mother telling her children to clean their rooms. Then she goes to their room and finds everything on the floor. She did not want this to happen, and yet, it is her will which has allowed it to happen. I would imagine a Christian would believe that God does not want men to sin, but His Will has allowed them to have their own free will to do it. Thus, the blame is on the man.
Asura.Karianna said:
Sure seemed like you were getting into it earlier. Why the change now?
Because it affects my life. That's the reason it bothers me. I wish for the demise of several organizations that I feel are destructive to me, my family, my friends and human evolution in general. Almost all countries in the world are ruled by religious people who, more than often, base their decisions on outdated beliefs rather than secular moral standards such as basic human rights, global awareness, tolerance towards difference and a genuine pursuit of peace.
That, my friend, is anything but reassuring.
Rationalists, those who chose, out of simple logic, not to believe in something supernatural, need to state their opinion, proudly and coherently. They need to have a place in society and politics, to be heard and to at least have a word on what the future's going to look like. Something as serious as the occupation of Iraq (close to 100000 have died in it) could probably have been avoided. If it wasn't for the fact that so many US voters based their vote on Bush's claim to have strong religious beliefs, rather than nonviolent ideologies, less people would be dead today.
Beliefs keep us from evolving because of what they are: Suppositions that were turned into artificial facts by irrational, although well intentioned people. The scientific approach goes in contradiction with the religious approach. I will show you that I have a baseball to prove that I own one. Instead, a religious person will dare you to prove that he doesn't have a baseball and your failing to demonstrate that he doesn't own one will make him feel justified.
Doubt, the very basis of knowledge: Doubt is the only way to keep our mind from falling into what I like to describe as "lazy mode". Doubt requires constant re-questioning of our assumptions and becomes harder as we grow old. We have to constantly remind ourselves that what we think we know... might be wrong.
Religions fundamentally discourage questioning; even when they pretend to do, they do it in a hypocritical way that discourages questioning even the relevance of believing. Oppositely, Science has, over the centuries, been re-evaluated from scratch, in the noble attempt to find some provable truths. Small truths, yes, but significant ones. The first scientists obviously believed in God; now, most don't.
