Religion: If You Don't Believe In It Why Does It Bother You?

Lol dont hate me but I could care less if gays get the same benefits as a normal married couple as long as my hard working, white male *** can be classified as a single black mother with children by 4 different guys. Ill trade married atx benefits for lol section 8, food stamps and day care vouchers so that I may go to work just eneough to have my spending cash and not lose the benefits.

Not really both are classifications for social benefits. A gay couple can be married in their own eyes. The only relevance politically in the matter is for tax benefits.
Obviouslyin the eys of a church you arent married but if one doesnt believe in that sort of thing then that goes out the window. The only things left are tax reasons and personal reasons. the personal reasons have no impact on a political debate so that only leaves the tax purpose. I guess what I am trying to say is that things in life are not always fair when it comes to the social benefits. A favorable tax rate is in the same ball park of any other government related perk. If I were a gay couple I would worry way less about haveing it accepted as a marriage and more focused on lobbying to change the tax code to treat you the same as a traditional couple.

I like pie.

/totally relevant

And maybe the pie likes you.

I know that but in your own mind is what matters not what everyone else on earth thinks about it. And I very highly doubt that the political forces involved in the gay marriage debate would say "Ok as long as we can get married we will forgo the tax benefit." Some individuals may say thats ok, but most are in it for the tax reason and no other.

People get married because they are in love and that should only matter in your own eyes is what I am saying. It should not be a politcal or a religous debate for that matter. Ideally in a perfect world the only thing that would matter is that someone is a human being. Unfortunately the world is full of laws, classifications and double standards.

Yes, when you fall in love, ok its there. But when you rgo start producing offspring, this is where the issues start to commence:

1). Are you staying as a couple?
2). Dost thou couple stay committed, and become a parental unit?( meaning also do both parents have stable incomes and both work?
3). are you a separated couple, and one is a stay at home parent while the the other works?


It does definatly change the standards, b/c the laws do intervene with people.

I also believe this is how taxes can screw you over as well, maybe sometimes, albeit the situation, if its a good one...or not.... =/


OMG.. where is the religion here? Oops? Something must have manifested me to feel compelled to type something off topic, a reality perhaps?

Bigheadkitty, a gay couple in love is analogous to two straight people in love. They are the same thing, and I don't see how one can justify treating them differently.

You, however, I'm guessing are NOT a black single welfare cheat mom. So that's apples and oranges. And I'm not saying there aren't people cheating the system, hell, I'll agree with you that it's messed up and unjust. But just because some people are treated unjustly doesn't mean we should just keep treating people unjustly (to their benefit or detriment).

Aaaaanyway...I think we could apply this to a multitude of things here. I also believe in individual responsibility and, in the physical world, this means that we hold people responsible for what they do because they are aware of the consequences (and if they are not, we tend to treat them as innocent or insane).

However, let's talk about "ignorance," which I italicized in the above quote. If it is an inherent weakness, then it's all part of God's plan, isn't it? And if we're talking about being able to choose the right religion, then that's kind of a *** move.

But again, what is it to be "ignorant?" Isn't one who questions things and chooses NOT to invest in faith and chooses to ground him or herself in things that can be observed, intimated, and proven showing signs of not being ignorant? I would think that god would applaud those who seek to better understand his creation (but that's just an opinion). Adding to that...
Here's the thing: religion is, in a lot of cases, NOT a choice. It's all about who you are and where you grew up. Sure people convert, stray, and deconvert all the time, but the number of options for everyone in the world varies, even in a world as connected as the one we live in. In short, if any one religion is the "right" one, then the possibility of discerning that it is correct is, in a word, remote. So, why would god punish those who have heard of Christianity and weren't convinced?

But the bigger flaw here is this: Jews, Muslims, and just about every other religion DOES love god (just not Jesus because they don't believe he is god). The non-religiously inclined, like myself, don't hate god, we just are not convinced of his existence. And the idea of hell as a place of separation from god, cruel as that might be, isn't backed up by the Bible. If the unbelievers are to be "condemned," then Revelations describes that condemnation as "The lake of fire," which is described as being a place where the condemned are "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Of course, there are quite a few people who call it symbolic and have made arguments for annihilationist or even Universalist views of it, but this calls for a kind of literary criticism the likes of which were not around during the days the New Testament was written down (or even when the most recent copies of that book we have date from).

If this is the justice system designed by a perfect being, then it strikes me as being unnecessarily picky, overly complicated, and profoundly unfair.

Wow, back in 200 Ad, that doesn't seem to be a very hard task,helping 10 muslims to read and write but then again, the times have greatly changed. Now I know this looks like a pretty picture,the reality of this now is gravely more serious than we think. Back in the day, it could have been "I have the biggest sword" Now a days its whoever can destroy the world quicker by their cache of weapons of mass destruction and telling the world at what rate they can instill fear in the population of the whole world.

Frightening, isn't it.

(I am also awaiting my 1000's post as this is my 998, was my 997th.)


=)

And that is where your wrong, those things are nothing more than mere influences. your surroundings and your environment does influence what becomes of you, but that is the key word "influence." Religion is a choice, yes the majority will follow beliefs based on the norms of a society. Thats how norms become norms. BUT, people break norms all the time in every society. Whether or not you follow the norms is your choice.

Okay, last post for a while, I am totally shirking writing my comprehensive exam. :P

Well, Mabrook, I confess that I am nowhere near as well-versed in the Qur'an as I am in the Christian Bible, so there's only so much I can actually engage in debate here, since I don't want to debate something I'm not qualified to talk about.

I'll instead go in a broad theological sense and rely on direct responses, with perhaps a bit of draw from what I do know.
I could come up with a list of 100 names for myself that describe what I do, that wouldn't signify my complexity or reflect my perfection or lack thereof. (Curiously, my real name is Michael, which derives from the Hebrew meaning "godly one." Ironic that my real name is so inapt, isn't it?) But jokes and logical foreplay aside...

You make a good point, humans may indeed be woefully ill-equipped to judge the way God runs the show. But if we are given the ability to understand, to wonder, to make judgments, then we should be able to understand and agree upon a system that is truly perfect to be just. If we can't, then it really is "overly" complicated, meaning it's excessive and therefore not perfect. But a perfect being would create a system of justice that truly WAS perfect. I don't think I'm being picky to ask a perfect being to be perfect.
I'll take your word on that, it's pretty common to the Abrahamic traditions that you don't question God. But again, this is an unfair setup: God, if he exists, gave us our capacity to wonder and be amazed at things. We think Superman is pretty cool because of his great power and kindness and enjoy learning more about him in comics and movies, for example, and God is infinitely more powerful and, supposedly, merciful and kind. How can we not wonder at/about God and try to comprehend him?

Of course, those who try to comprehend God often make assumptions about what he wants, and I think we know where that leads us...

Anyway, with regard to Islam, I will say that I like the stance the Qur'an takes a lot more than Christianity, so I'll at least call it a slightly better system. The Qur'an says that people will be judged according to "their own book," and that:So at least they're being more inclusive. I don't know if this applies to atheists like myself (I tried looking up Islamic views of atheism and mostly got associations with "concealers" or "nonbelievers"), so maybe I should write my own "book," just to make sure. :)

But if atheists and those of religions other than the ones listed above are excluded from paradise, I'd say that the same argument applies: It's still not fair, and I don't think you can be too "picky" about something with eternal repercussions.

And because I'm still here, I'll address Strawhatluffy:Oh please, Luffy, I'm never wrong. :)

Okay, okay, just kidding, and you make a good point. But my point is that not everyone has the exposure in their society to every religion and to even stray for a second from it is thought abominable. Everyone should question the things in their life and be encouraged to do so, but the reality is that people often are not, and God shouldn't hold them accountable for such disadvantageous upbringings.

Let's have a thought experiment: Let's say the RIGHT religion is that which worships Lord Juju of the Mountain, originating somewhere in central Africa. The punishment for not paying homage to Juju is to eat toasted mouse turds for 1000 years in the dark realm Butskutbugy. You hear about it on the Discovery channel and probably don't for a second think of converting because it's the religion of an indigenous population of people who don't even have electricity. Enjoy the mouse turds!

People of other religions and cultures view Christianity and other religions the same way. Do you have a choice? Sure! But do you acknowledge it as a legit choice for a second? Probably not.

In other words, okay, religion is a choice. But not every religion is a choice.

All hail Lord Juju of the Mountain and bow before his grace!!! May Lord Juju of the Mountain bless and keep us all!!!



what?? i don't wanna eat toasted mouse turds.... they are so bland!

What you say is true and i agree with almost 100% of it, not every society is exposed to all forms of religion and belief. And some don't even get it unless a missionary happens to visit their tribe.

but people are still left with the option:

a) follow the norm belief

b) disagree with the norm belief

People around the world choose (b) and get executed all the time because of that.


[just looking at everything from a sociological standpoint]

Doesn't that sound like the name of a Yagudo NM :P

LOL it sure does

Several things:

To truth-seekers, religion will always reveal itself to be a negative thing. It is and has been the biggest source of division in our world. No matter what "good things" the religious teachings contain, when the people following those ideas begin to get organized, it becomes a cult.

Furthermore, don't think just having the label of "religion" makes it so. There are plenty of nations and corporations that carry around the same concept. That is to say, all religions carry with them the false idea that theirs is the best way - that they are closest to the truth. Every religion, no matter which one you go to, will claim that they are closest to the truth, or that they are the best. Having this mindset essentially puts people inside of a little box.

Religion tricks innocent people by telling the same lies it has for centuries. The aim of this is to rule over the entire world. The pope, for instance, is basically a king. Every church collects money. Even in charity work, most of the time the church only helps those who are of the same religious beliefs.

The truth is that you can have the "good things" without the religion. Within a religion, no person can become fully realized. People have to be able to move beyond and to break out of the box religion puts people into.

You also have to always consider that all these religious ideas are man-made. If you only follow teachings, without knowing why, you are allowing yourself to be tricked. Questions like "If God created the Universe, then who created God?" cannot just be dismissed - we have allow ourselves to wonder whether God created us, or if we created God.

We have to be willing and able to see past these boxes of "religion" and strike towards the heart of the real truth. And we cannot just dismiss the issues brought up by religion because we are dismissing religion. Perhaps there is a great spiritual power, but maybe we have the wrong idea about it. We know, for instance, that people can become stronger internally - can have real courage, compassion, humility, and selflessness. If we were to envision a source of these good states of being, perhaps we could call that God instead - so that God, instead of being a man, with a will, a personality, vices, etc., it is just a force, and a source of energy.

The question of religion, though, is one that must be answered with a bitter truth: All religions are cults. They bring people out of their natural, or relaxed state, and control them. None of the religions are close to the truth.

Atheism in this light is understandable, but at the same time restrictive, if it's not willing to consider the ideas dealt with within religious teaching. Atheism, too, can become a like religion if it blindly considers itself to be close to the truth. There is much within human potential yet to be unearthed, and it is of the utmost importance to never blind ourselves, and to make it our task to pursue the truth regardless of the cost to our, in the end, insignificant egos.

Back to studying, actual response later. :)

A I said briefly back a bit, the bible was a tool used to govern ppl as a whole. It was like a book of rules used to keep people organized.

<shrugs>

But I also do believe in Oliveman's Post... Nicely said! Same thing, only re worded slightly.

I guess nobody got the joke. :P

On one hand, I'll agree with some of the points Oliveman made but I think he views religion in a light I just refuse to see it in. For one thing, the term "cult" is a term with a huge variety of interpretations, so classifying all religions as such is essentially meaningless. Generally, when I think of cults, I think of typically small groups centered around new, invented beliefs with the goal of exploiting them and taking large amounts of their money or property. I might classify the Church of Scientology this way, but mainstream religion is of a distinctly different variety.

Furthermore, the idea that those heading up religions are out to "take over the world," or that it is the goal of every religion is just silly, and mostly false. Not every religion or group of religious people are out to convert people to their way of thinking, so it's not true that "every" religion is out for that goal. The Jewish religion and quite a few eastern religions, for example, are fairly laid back about letting you come to them, not the other way around. And even those that are out to convert are, in most cases, motivated out of some genuine desire to do what they think is right. I don't see eye-to-eye with the line of thinking, but it's hardly something sinister.

Now, don't get me wrong, I generally think that religion is unnecessary and it often impedes human progress and stymies free thought, but it is not true that it is harmful all the time. Most religious people I know are still quite intelligent, reasonable, and decent. Most of the time, the religious are just neutral in their impact, and for some it seems to genuinely motivate them to try to be better people. In a public forum like this, I'll gladly debate the logic and merits of it, but I'm mostly content to live and let live.

To nitpick Oliveman's final point, I'll again stress that it is wrong to group "atheism" together as an "it." Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god, and each atheist is his or her own person. The point remains valid, but it can be summed up to "keep an open mind," which I think is fine, but if the ideas "within" a religion can be expressed in a secular sense, then I see no reason to frame it in religious terms.

religion does ***to free thought, I think a lot. Raised in a christian family, I still havve my views ideals, about science and other facts of life, and religion in no way impeded it.

As Einstein said religion and science can co exist, if it was not for religion we would not be questioning what we do or thinking about a creator. At the same time religion is blind with out science, which is what let us advance technology, and go to outer space to see truth to what actually is going on with the universe and how it was created.


Religion is not impeding humanity from advancing, blame humans for that.

This might well be true, but a demotivational poster with an uncited chart of questionable bias is not proof of your argument, though it is a little funny. :)