Religion: If You Don't Believe In It Why Does It Bother You?

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Religion: If you don't believe in it why does it bother you?
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 Bismarck.Drakelth
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By Bismarck.Drakelth 2010-04-06 12:50:05
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Odin.Liela said:
what did you do to get that to work?
 Carbuncle.Zanno
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By Carbuncle.Zanno 2010-04-06 12:50:19
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Odin.Liela said:
Bismarck.Drakelth said:
ohh and this.

 Odin.Liela
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By Odin.Liela 2010-04-06 12:52:31
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What Zanno said xD

You just forgot to put the / in the last url bracket, no worries.
 Bismarck.Drakelth
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By Bismarck.Drakelth 2010-04-06 12:56:16
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ohhh ic thank you.
 Sylph.Tsujikiri
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By Sylph.Tsujikiri 2010-04-06 13:10:43
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I say we take the extremes from both sides and have em duke it out :)
 Siren.Kytio
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By Siren.Kytio 2010-04-06 13:20:18
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Sylph.Tsujikiri said:
I say we take the extremes from both sides and have em duke it out :)
Ever heard of an extremist group that act in the name of atheism? Oh you haven't? That's cause you can't get from "I don't believe any gods exist" to "there I should bomb/kill X".
 Bismarck.Drakelth
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By Bismarck.Drakelth 2010-04-06 13:24:16
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We could always take 1 group of atheists and 1 group of religous people have them start their own towns, and in 10 year see wich one is better. That is asuming the religous group doesnt kill all the atheist in the name of their god before then.
 Sylph.Tsujikiri
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By Sylph.Tsujikiri 2010-04-06 13:33:03
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Siren.Kytio said:
Sylph.Tsujikiri said:
I say we take the extremes from both sides and have em duke it out :)
Ever heard of an extremist group that act in the name of atheism? Oh you haven't? That's cause you can't get from "I don't believe any gods exist" to "there I should bomb/kill X".

Extreme as in beliefs. You have people who extremely believe their religion and push it upon everyone they can. Then there are believers who believe their path they chose is right for them and may not be for someone else.


I have also met people who are athiest who don't believe in religion but they don't put everyone down.

I think some people who are religious and athiest have reached a middle ground where they have come to accept people have their different views and accept them. Those are the people I like being around. Not the extremes I stated earlier.

Sorry about not stating my definitions more clearly :)

Also by saying "duke it out" I don't mean to kill each other.
 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-04-06 13:48:13
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The problem with "faith" is that it implies exclusivity. Faith cannot coexist with other faith because allowing for yourself to be wrong breaks the very definition of faith.

You can't "share" a claim on truth. All faith must eventually and necessarily try to eliminate all other faiths to survive, even if individuals within that faith don't realize it or choose not to partake in the conflict.

I think this is most people's real problem with religion. It's not the substance -- it's the fact that faith is necessarily compelled, by its very nature, to interfere and dominate.

By comparison, science does not reward faith. It punishes it. No scientist has ever achieved fame or success by repeating what's already established truth. They achieve success by proving what everyone believes at the time to be wrong.
[+]
 Ifrit.Kungfuhustle
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By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2010-04-06 14:03:34
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well, the bottom line is....

My God is better than your God...

At least I can lie/cheat/***/gamble/drink/smoke/etc, then go to church and wash my sins away with one confession (even though I let myself get paddled by our local female priestess).
 Lakshmi.Feifongwong
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By Lakshmi.Feifongwong 2010-04-06 14:05:59
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
By comparison, science does not reward faith. It punishes it. No scientist has ever achieved fame or success by repeating what's already established truth. They achieve success by proving what everyone believes at the time to be wrong.

That's how science is supposed to work. However, due to specialism and peer reviewed boards that grant funding and research time, usually it isn't done like that these days.
 Ragnarok.Strawhatluffy
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By Ragnarok.Strawhatluffy 2010-04-06 14:50:01
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Ragnarok.Psyence said:
Asura.Ludoggy said:
It seems to me that Atheists like to shove their beliefs in my face more often then someone belonging to a religion.
Maybe its because I dont live right next to a bunch of Jehovah witnesses.
Or maybe religious people just arent *** naturally like all these atheists I meet.

That's what your missing... it's not a belief... lol it's actually about trying to get rid of beliefs in order to evolve >.> Obviously you're not trying to understand what I wrote.

At first i thought the thread was interesting, but this reply.... I hope your not an atheist. Otherwise you need to learn the definition of the word belief is.

Extremist people on all sides are trying to shove their opinion of what is the correct way of belief down peoples throats. If extremist atheist were to gain enough political power to shut down all religion, it would be the same thing as Christianity, or any other generally excepted belief in a society. The situation would not be better.


The truth is this:
1. Atheism is NOT completely backed by facts, nor is any religion. There is NO empirical data that can completely support any of it. There is NO empirical data to support the existence or nonexistence of some god in the sky.

2. Atheism just like any other religion is simply a belief. The belief there is no deity.


I'm personally not into organized religion or atheism. I do have my personal belief about the world and celestial things. I am capable of having a mature discussion about it, and going on about my business.
 Ramuh.Mairah
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By Ramuh.Mairah 2010-04-06 16:46:02
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
The problem with "faith" is that it implies exclusivity. Faith cannot coexist with other faith because allowing for yourself to be wrong breaks the very definition of faith.

You can't "share" a claim on truth. All faith must eventually and necessarily try to eliminate all other faiths to survive, even if individuals within that faith don't realize it or choose not to partake in the conflict.

I think this is most people's real problem with religion. It's not the substance -- it's the fact that faith is necessarily compelled, by its very nature, to interfere and dominate.

By comparison, science does not reward faith. It punishes it. No scientist has ever achieved fame or success by repeating what's already established truth. They achieve success by proving what everyone believes at the time to be wrong.


I agree with this to some extent in the fact that some religions fall under this, but not all of them. In my case, my religious beliefs and spirituality is accepting of all religions and most Pagans hold the belief that there is no right or wrong way, that all paths lead to the same end or the believed end. Its just a matter of what is right from person to person. What may be right for me might not be for you. Thats how I believe and most other Pagans I've met feel the same way. So while that may be the case for many faiths out there, it doesn't hold true across the board.
 Bismarck.Bigheadkitty
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-06 17:07:56
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Religion and science may each be either held as a basis for the things we do in a positve manner, or they may be used for controll over others.

Feeding and sheltering millions of people that are less fortunate or spreading fear and demanding our money.

Nuclear power as a form of cheap energy for all or lay waste to humanity with atomic annihalation.

Neither Intelligent design or the big bang theory can be ultimately proven to be valid. We simply were not there when it happened so we dont know and more than likely will never know.
 Bismarck.Bigheadkitty
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By Bismarck.Bigheadkitty 2010-04-06 17:21:45
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(G)enetic (O)rganism (D)evelopment. Experiment by scientists from a far away planet to create servants in their own image.
A for Adam as the first, Eve quite literally cloned from a peice of Adam's rib so that there would be another like organism to contribute its half of the DNA code and thus make continuation of the project viable.
Combination of computer programming based on a code (DNA), nano technology, advanced wireing (Nerves), plumbing and sewage removal, pnuematics and many other systems we see in machinery.
The odds of DNA randomly mutateing to its beautiful and utterly coplex form from a very simple set of instructions is like writing script to add 1+1 and it becomeing this game we all love or hate to play.
Just some stuff to think about, maybe GOD is real but has just been misunderstood and used by the powerful among the religions of the world to do sometimes good but also to do evil. Its up to each individual to seek truth through religion, science or whatever means they feel worthy.
Who Made God? Where did all the material to cause the big bang come from? Noone can answer either of these questions so maybe its best to not codemn either side and take the best aspects of each to truely make this world a better place for all.

As you can see I just like to throw out random stuff to provoke thought. feel free to flame as I wont be offended because I am not convinced 100% of either.
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By Asura.Deodate 2010-04-06 17:26:42
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While I agree with the OP, I'm afraid the debate is a fruitless effort. Being a person of faith requires that you deny logic and place your faith in something completely illogical. You won't persuade a person with irrational beliefs to share your position using a rational argument.
 Cerberus.Arteus
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By Cerberus.Arteus 2010-04-06 17:28:23
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im not gonna lie to you all anymore, im the second coming of christ, jeebus christ /james bond theme tune
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-04-06 17:40:26
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
The problem with "faith" is that it implies exclusivity. Faith cannot coexist with other faith because allowing for yourself to be wrong breaks the very definition of faith.

You can't "share" a claim on truth. All faith must eventually and necessarily try to eliminate all other faiths to survive, even if individuals within that faith don't realize it or choose not to partake in the conflict.

I think this is most people's real problem with religion. It's not the substance -- it's the fact that faith is necessarily compelled, by its very nature, to interfere and dominate.

By comparison, science does not reward faith. It punishes it. No scientist has ever achieved fame or success by repeating what's already established truth. They achieve success by proving what everyone believes at the time to be wrong.
Given that truth is that which is immutable, irrefutable, and absolute--the consummate representation of all that exists--it is undeniable that we are only aware of but a fraction of truth.

The way I've always seen it, is that faith (in the religious sense) and truth are not mutually exclusive in the way that truth and non-truth are mutually exclusive. Faith is the innate trust that there exists something beyond the physical, mental, and emotional realms--the spiritual.

Regarding different faiths, however, one must keep in mind that while each person is able to comprehend truth and faith at such a minute level, each person is limited to a singular point of view, which is--undeniably--mutable, refutable, and, at times, erroneous.

As a result, science relates to the exploration of tangible truth, while religion the exploration of spiritual truth.
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-04-06 17:44:11
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Asura.Deodate said:
While I agree with the OP, I'm afraid the debate is a fruitless effort. Being a person of faith requires that you deny logic and place your faith in something completely illogical. You won't persuade a person with irrational beliefs to share your position using a rational argument.

First of all, that's simply a false statement.

Secondly, can you honestly say that everything that you believe (religious or otherwise) is completely rational and logical?

Lastly, do you believe that ultimately, human logic is the highest level of reasoning that can exist? (I'm not asking if it is the "current highest level" or "is the highest level that we are currently aware of".)

 Leviathan.Narrubia
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By Leviathan.Narrubia 2010-04-06 17:45:56
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
The problem with "faith" is that it implies exclusivity. Faith cannot coexist with other faith because allowing for yourself to be wrong breaks the very definition of faith.

You can't "share" a claim on truth. All faith must eventually and necessarily try to eliminate all other faiths to survive, even if individuals within that faith don't realize it or choose not to partake in the conflict.

I think this is most people's real problem with religion. It's not the substance -- it's the fact that faith is necessarily compelled, by its very nature, to interfere and dominate.
I'm not sure what religious tolerance has to do with allowing oneself to be wrong. Being tolerant of other religions does not necessitate your admission of false belief, it only means that you are willing to accept that others hold incorrect beliefs. With this view of what tolerance is, I cannot see how any faith, by virtue of it's nature alone, can seek the elimination of other faiths. Some do this anyways, but that's because they self-propagate by assimilation, and things that self-propagate tend to do better in the world (much in the way that life does well because it self-propagates).

While we can see what you're talking about throughout history, it holds much less water in most modern first-world countries. Science and religious tolerance are doing pretty well here in America, and I imagine most places in Europe and some places in Asia are doing well in both these fronts, too. It seems that if religion were compelled to go for the neck all the time, neither front would be doing well anywhere.
 Phoenix.Sector
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By Phoenix.Sector 2010-04-06 17:47:23
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[+]
 Shiva.Ergiyios
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By Shiva.Ergiyios 2010-04-06 17:57:42
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This made me laugh pretty hard, thank you
 Asura.Deodate
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By Asura.Deodate 2010-04-06 18:16:07
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Midgardsormr.Frobeus said:
Asura.Deodate said:
While I agree with the OP, I'm afraid the debate is a fruitless effort. Being a person of faith requires that you deny logic and place your faith in something completely illogical. You won't persuade a person with irrational beliefs to share your position using a rational argument.
First of all, that's simply a false statement. Secondly, can you honestly say that everything that you believe (religious or otherwise) is completely rational and logical? Lastly, do you believe that ultimately, human logic is the highest level of reasoning that can exist? (I'm not asking if it is the "current highest level" or "is the highest level that we are currently aware of".)

1)If you say so. So far I haven't seen believers converted 2) Yes, as difficult as that may be for you to believe. 3) Yes, unless you've got something better. Human logic is the reasoning tool that we have so it is what we humans (should) use to guide our lives.
 
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 Ragnarok.Faiye
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By Ragnarok.Faiye 2010-04-06 19:02:35
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Eurra said:
While that is true, if I remember correctly - many people have been killed in the name of a religion or for not believing in a certain god. Than have been killed for not believing there is no god?

If I remember correctly.

You are indeed correct sir, though the two categories could basically be lumped together.

CLICKY HERE
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2010-04-06 20:45:01
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Asura.Deodate said:
Midgardsormr.Frobeus said:
Asura.Deodate said:
While I agree with the OP, I'm afraid the debate is a fruitless effort. Being a person of faith requires that you deny logic and place your faith in something completely illogical. You won't persuade a person with irrational beliefs to share your position using a rational argument.
First of all, that's simply a false statement. Secondly, can you honestly say that everything that you believe (religious or otherwise) is completely rational and logical? Lastly, do you believe that ultimately, human logic is the highest level of reasoning that can exist? (I'm not asking if it is the "current highest level" or "is the highest level that we are currently aware of".)

1)If you say so. So far I haven't seen believers converted 2) Yes, as difficult as that may be for you to believe. 3) Yes, unless you've got something better. Human logic is the reasoning tool that we have so it is what we humans (should) use to guide our lives.

1. I believe that there is something out there, exactly what I'll keep to myself. But I am also very much a logical person, so, nice to meet you.

2. Sorry, but I don't think you thought it through. You are a human, therefore you experience emotions, you experience subjective preferences and prejudices. The very fact that you are a person and not a robot means that you have, are and will feel and do things that are both irrational and illogical.

3. That wasn't what I asked. Reread the question, then the part in the parentheses and try again.
 Sylph.Oddin
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By Sylph.Oddin 2010-04-06 20:50:46
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tl;dr

The reason it bothers me is because religious people believe that it's their duty to tell non-religious people what they're missing out on. We don't need daily reminders of what the glory of God can do for us. We've been exposed to one religion or another at some point in our lives. We can make our own rational reasons for wanting to find faith in a religion without being bludgeoned with pamphlets and "Witnesses". You can't save everyone. Just let them make their mistakes and find religion for themselves.
 Bahamut.Stanflame
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By Bahamut.Stanflame 2010-04-06 20:56:42
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Sylph.Oddin said:
tl;dr

The reason it bothers me is because "Some (Mostly Nut Case religious people", the ones who are a shame to humanity) religious people believe that it's their duty to tell non-religious people what they're missing out on.


Fixed, Learn before spewing ***you do not *** know about. I doubt every religious people in the world is hunting you down. doubt none or no one even got in your face, what do you mean by religious people?

I made a post earlier in this thread, seem like your idiotic *** did not read what was said by me.
[+]
 Sylph.Oddin
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By Sylph.Oddin 2010-04-06 21:06:21
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Bahamut.Stanflame said:
Sylph.Oddin said:
tl;dr

The reason it bothers me is because "Some (Mostly Nut Case religious people", the ones who are a shame to humanity) religious people believe that it's their duty to tell non-religious people what they're missing out on.


Fixed, Learn before spewing ***you do not *** know about. I doubt every religious people in the world is hunting you down. doubt none or no one even got in your face, what do you mean by religious people?

I made a post earlier in this thread, seem like your idiotic *** did not read what was said by me.

Hahahaha. Did I hit a soft spot? No where did I say that everyone shoved it in your face. Instead, there are those that do that completely rib jab deal where they thank God for every god damn "gift" or "pleasantry" that happens and makes damn sure they mention it in any respect they can. I don't need to hear about what your "God" did or didn't do.

Then there are those that do walk door to door and will give you the third degree about what your religion is, why you chose it and why you should be in theirs.

And maybe you're blind, stupid or a jackass looking for a fight, I put tl;dr at the beginning of the post so, no, I did not read your stupid *** post but from your response, I'm sure it was trash.
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