Verethragna OR Sagitta What Path?

Anyone know if I should go for Verethragna OR Sagitta What Path for this?

Is mnk used for end game content?

Godhands.

Vere are reasonably similar to Godhands but it's been my experience that the WSD from Godhands out-do the white damage from Vere the majority of the time.

If you don't have a way to get Godhands, Vere are fine. Sagitta are very close to useless. Could be a good starter weapon for someone who bought a bunch of gil and doesn't want to put any effort into their MNK, but when comparing all available options, they're not competitive.

MNK can be fit into much of end-game, but they're preferred for very little. Definitely not meta, requires your group to know and appreciate what MNK brings to the table and sometimes build around it. Even when doing this, MNK is generally inferior to the others for common endgame activities.

1. MNK can be used for melee Sortie runs.
2. It's possible it can be used instead of DNC for Aminon (Just melee and WS with 75% SB and Penance debuff, instead of just WS with DNC), but that would be experimental, so unless you have 5 good friends and plan to go that far, you can forget that :)
3. MNK can't really do Segments efficiently, because blunt is I think the most resisted type of damage there and MNK doesn't have any real alternative
4. MNK can be used for only A3 V25 Ngai. Other V25 A3 NMs completely resist blunt damage. It's not really good for Bumba too, because you want DDs with debuffs, party buffs and overpowered SPs.

For sure Verethragna over Sagitta, but Veret are really focused on Vsmite and Impetus. Godhands are probably the most versatile and balanced h2h for MNK.

shame i would love to see how fast they can go now tho lol

Meh, if you want to see the speed, get Kraken club/Hedron Dagger (or 2x Blurred Rod +1 if you actually want to do damage too) /NIN with all the available Dual Wield and push the Hundred Fists button.

whos faster than mnk or nin now in the year 2024 with all the gear in hand.

This is a rather silly question. If you're just looking to see auto-attack animations as fast as possible, you can use Hundred Fists on a MNK and it will look really flashy.

Technically HF aside, NIN will have lower base delay than a MNK with endgame weapons on. They also get Daken so you'll have some Shuriken throws in there.

Practically speaking, neither of them are very good for most endgame, so you'll struggle to find people to play with in group events. If you're just messing around with your friends, play w/e you want.

Faster in what? how fast you swing or how fast you get TP?
NIN is faster for both I would say. MNK is actually very slow. It has one of the biggest round delay if you look at capped haste scenario. This is because base delay for MNK is usually way above 500 and sometimes above 600 and you can only reduce that by 80%.
If we are talking about regular builds, THF is by far the fastest if you care about swinging animation, because base delay for daggers round is like 362 and then THF can reach 60%+ Triple attack. 2nd to THF is probably RDM and maybe RNG/nin and DRG/dnc, simply because they offhand Kraken Club. Fastest round is probably DNC single wielding Twashtar (kinda niche, but still regular build).

MNK is used for Henwen and Gigelorum too. Pretty useless in Odyssey and sortie though.

For endgame, MNK can really shine if your group utilizes low man subtle blow + SMN mewing strategies but understand that this doesn't work in all cases, especially when a NM has auto-regain.

Examples can be VD htmb Odin or T2 T3 Reisenjima without seeing a TP move once in the entire battle.

+1. I strongly recommend Sagitta path A in a capped DT, Subtle Blow1+II, set for those zerg attempts with a very low TP feed. (Verethragna has it's uses as well, typically where white damage matters a lot and there is little-to-no difficulty keeping AM3 up).

1) Why Sagitta? and
2) Did you mean A path (Store TP) or B path (Subtle Blow II)? I'm assuming you meant B?

MNK has far less need for a B path weapon than other jobs (such as a DRK using Father Time B for Mboze), since MNK has enough other Subtle Blow II gear to hit +75 cap without weapon (SBII+25 from Moonbow Belt +1, Niqmaddu Ring, and Sherida Earring, or Mpaca's Hose +5 is another option)

Also worth considering that, assuming both options are using capped SB, B path Su5 weapons' follow-up attacks feed more TP than a weapon that does not have those extra attacks.

So if you're already capping SBII and have Penance/Chi Blast, why not a stronger weapon, whether Verethragna or Godhands? Not sure I understand the draw of Sagitta, other than being a cheap and easy option to buy for someone who doesn't feel like making Empy/Aeonic H2H.

There was a minor niche where it was a decent DPS option with strong DT, not the best but wasnt as much good hybrid gear at the time, but with all the hybrid gear available now it's lost that appeal.

Maybe, but even considering DT I can't imagine this was every hugely relevant for MNK, since you should not need to sacrifice any DT gear to get capped SB on the job. You're already at the SB+50 cap from traits (SB+35 with 1900 gift) plus Auspice from a WHM using any level empy feet (SB+10 base from the spell, plus SB+5~19 bonus from Empy shoes even starting at the lv81 +1 version).

Even if you lacked Auspice entirely or the WHM had no feet (bad WHM, bad!), you're talking about adding 1-2 pieces with Subtle Blow to make up the gap between native MNK trait and capped SB. Should be plenty of room to cap DT elsewhere, even in this extraordinarily niche scenario where you're lacking a foundational buff (Auspice) for low TP feed setups.

Anyway, might indeed have been the case in some specific setup that I can't quite imagine, but at this point that seems to clearly be outdated advice at best.

Oh i should have been more clear it was Path A, the STP/ODD path for that scenerio, not path B. The SB aspect you already covered, mnks the one job that needs 0 help capping SB/II, assuming you can use any kende, otherwise yeah, an auspice can cover the gap on its own

Sagg/defending ring/moonbow/pdt cape was 35pdt/25DT without giving much up aside from an inferior weapon and a ring slot. Which at the time, was pretty damn good deal given your best source of hybrid was augmented reis gear which means giving up a DD trait instead.

Path B weapons are not great for Subtle blow. The 25 SBII just offsets the extra swing and you miss out on using SBII in other slots.

i'm glad we are all active in this and thank you guys and i'm not an AI lol

I mean...I'm not sure I follow this logic though.

If you're going to WS at 1500 TP, and it takes 8 hits to get to 1500 from your post-WS TP then with Sagitta it will take 8 hits, with Verethragna it will take 8 hits. The Su5 just allows you to have 1.87 attacks/round average instead of 1.37, so you get 8 hits in 4 rounds instead of 5 rounds (or whatever the math is).

It doesn't just magically add hits in that you didn't want. If you did get a random OAT on the end and were at 1800 TP instead of 1500, you'd get the extra 300 TP as bonus damage on your WS, reducing the mob's HP by the difference. Same as if you TA using Vere and end up at 1800 TP. You gain damage at the cost of giving the mob TP, just like every other auto-attack on every job with every weapon in the game.

I agree with the point about MNK specifically, because they get SBII easily, but I think when looking at Su5 Path B in general, this logic is so weird.

Again this is very confused logic.

Lets for a moment forget about all the Ultimate Weapons with random boosts to WSs and lets compare weapon with 25% SBII and follow up attack 50% (lets call it weapon A), to same weapon but without both (lets call it weapon B).



Like you can see 8 attacks at 50%SB will feed more TP, than 12 attacks at 75%SB. 12 attacks will also do more damage. weapon A will also has that 25%SBII applied to WS.

Now you can also do something like this.



What you achieve by that (by stopping attack) is around the same amount of swings in the same time, so the damage stays the same, but TP feed is reduced even more.

I honestly have no idea where the logic of Path B not reducing TP feed comes from.

Now what makes path B less appealing like I wrote in other thread is various bonuses on Ultimate Weapons can actually produce much higher damage from less swings, resulting in similar or better TP feed per damage done. Many path B weapons will for sure easily be the best for that purpose though (dps to tp feed ratio).

I said Path A (Store TP) and meant it. Path B is useless on Monk, mostly because the additional follow-up attack subverts the whole point of providing as little TP feed as possible.

I would make them all to be honest, Sagitta, Vere and Godhands.

Pre Empy +2, Sagitta B's niche used to be hitting capped SB and DT for solo/lowman content without Auspice, and without gimping your TP set too much. Bhikku Head & Legs getting DT and solid TP stats means MNK can do that with any weapon now.

What exactly is a realistic 2024 example of a situation where you'd use Sagitta A over Vere or Godhands?


So, was probably always super-niche. Because if you're actually putting forth the effort of doing a TP denial strategy, the vast majority of the time you're bringing a WHM and getting Auspice. Unless you're that MNK trying to solo hard mobs with trusts, which, again, pretty niche.


On a separate note, but continuing the FUA discussion:
Another relevant concern when doing a low TP feed setup is consistency of TP feed. If you're doing something like a STP/crit setup, you generally have a more predictable rate of TP gain and number of attacks over a given time than a set with FUA or a lot of multiattack. If you're doing a TP denial strategy in the first place, presumably it's because above all else you want to avoid the nasty moves... so unless you're really pushing against the clock too, maximizing damage per attack or even your damage over time is not as big of a concern as just not letting TP moves get off (as long as that still gives you enough DPS to kill the thing). I don't care if I can squeeze out a few extra WS in the same time due to the luck of the multi/FUA procs, I care about steadily taking the mob down and not risking an series of attack rounds with too many multi/FUA attacks that manages to give the mob enough TP to wreck me before a mew was ready.

Like I said, if you are concerned, that you attack too much, you can simply turn away. You still have benefit of 25%SBII on TP and on WS too (people forget that WS also gives TP and you can rarely keep SBII gear without gimping WS damage). You really risk nothing that way. Like I said though, I wouldn't consider Path B for every job, definitely not for MNK.

Not sure if the strat has changed since Feb23 but MNK was ideal for KI1 V25 Bumba for the Subtle Blow, Shjin, Chi Blast, Mantra and pretty high dmg. We did it with MNK DRG WAR BRD WHM & BST.

On the topic of the thread: Vere and GH are both amazing, generally I used GH without imp and Vere with imp- On certain fights I didn't use vere and full timed GH.
I was told by a few MNKs that Sagitta can keep up but I was never convinced.

What was the strategy? BST starts to spam TP drainkiss after 55sec to avoid fetters/denounce? Because otherwise I don't see the point of all that Subtle blow barely slowing down TP moves with 4-5 people TP feeding Bumba. I guess it's a good way to utilize MNK for sure.

You are correct it is better than I assumed at face value. It gets better with MA procs as well.

It does not help MNK since MNK is already capped at 75 SB in most every set. You need 63 SB to beat Path B. Jobs like DKR would need Niq+Dagon to feed less TP.

Sagitta was my first decent weapon on MNK several years ago, I didn't think I'd invest enough in the job to get GH or Vere and I wanted an easy way to at least do some content, mainly the frog ambu that was going on at the time.

I ultimately did the other weapons over time, but I used Sagitta a fair bit prior to that including during my Ngai v20 clear and farms, several Ambus, Omen, farming all my Lilith gear (and for others), and even a few Sortie runs for comparison sake. Having run all 3 back to back during v25 and anecdotally comparing numbers, it's pretty obvious the others do more damage, something that I know was discussed in other threads years ago. I don't think the raw DPS output was ever really a question.

The value of having it was more from the DT that came on them, it allowed you to cap DT making fewer sacrifices on other pieces. I think the value of that has deteriorated more with Empy+2/+3 and Odyssey gear, though, and especially considering the need for other defensive stats. That said, having 10% DT carry over into MNKs otherwise typically squishy WS sets may still have some value, although I still see decent numbers with GH and more defensive WS sets from Ody/Sortie, so likely not in this current era. In swapping them around for current endgame content, they do well enough and are serviceable, albeit maybe not the best option in every case, but I wouldn't call them "basically useless" either.

IDK, for a job with 6% DT built into their belt and access to malignance and Mpaca, it seems pretty tough to say they're struggling for DT, even before empy came out. With empy legs, you're already looking at 30 PDT from cape, legs, and belt. You'd need to be wearing utter trash in head, body, hands, and feet to be remotely close to needing DT in your weapon slot. For a DD job to sacrifice damage in their main hand to gain DT is a bit absurd.

I stand by my earlier point:
If you don't want to or don't have access to the REMAs, go for Sagitta. If you have all options available, I don't see any scenario where your best option is Sagitta. The third (fourth?) best weapon might as well be the 107th best weapon

Im slowly building Sagitta myself, but path C, because HP builds are fun :D