Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

Hmm, I think you might be right there. Wasn't paying attention to the mob types. The 25% does line up close enough. Thanks for the help!

General question, but does this scenario even exist in FFXI, where something can crit but isn't modified by crit gear/traits? That alone would seem to defy game logic and imply something else is going on, right?

Outside of a bug, or a ja, nothing can crit that doesn't state it can crit

They were simply wrong in their assessment.

(There might be blue spells that can crit and critical damage plus gear doesn't work, but I'm not certain) ((Foot Kick / Sickle Slash etc))

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Blade:_Rin

I believe this is the only exception.

Maru Testing :
Str: 192
Dex: 201
Mnk/WAR Mlvl 50 Mithra No WS dmg / No PDL gear on / No food

1k : Min 6180 Max 6482
1k Fotia Neck : Min 6379 Max 6689
3k : Min 23917 Max 25068
3k Fotia Neck : Min 24113 Max 25274

If I'm using my old spreadsheet right: 3.1 - 12.2

would be helpful to have 1k (or 3k) with an etude or stat bubble to get the stat growth

edit: I was not using it right

For the test my hand to hand skill was 501 not sure if that matters. I heard hand to hand skill might add base damage for hand to hand. I had +1 JSE ear on for +11 skill.

Only the first hit of every attack round was getting triple damage with the prime hand 2 hand.

Do any other Prime Weaponskills other than Origin have a hidden effect?

Not really a hidden effect if its in the ws description.

The drain/apsir effect on Origin isn't a hidden effect, its just how the WS operates.

Even Catastrophe lists the drain effect in the WS's description. Relics did have "hidden" effects such as Catastrophe giving haste. It was only "hidden" on the lvl 75 version. After that, they were listed as "Aftermath:" effects.

Cata and Origin are pretty unique with the drain. All other primes are just strictly damage only. However there are other WS's that give effects such as Guillotine and Tachi:Gekko having a silence effect. Plenty of Stun WS's also.

Ukko's Fury applies Slow, Rudra's Storm applies Gravity, and so on and so on. Lots of WS have secondary effects - empy WSs having some was a major issue on Alexander HTMV, which retaliates against debuffs.

I actually did not know that about Ukkos and Rudra! Now I’m curious how many others I don’t know about!

I hate that all of you knew what I meant, but instead of just saying "no," you took the time to explain that the effect is not, in fact, hidden. To be fair, I also hate myself for asking. I should have known better.

Like 20% the ws in the game lower something. Evasion defense att acc. Or apply something. Plague silence poison stun sleep bind.

Oh I just verified this. But Origin does bypass Shadows like Catastrophe/Entropy.

Also noticed weapon bash did too with AF gloves on.

Credit goes to BigAl, I was just the Ninja who got murdered.

A buddy of mine decided to get Lorg Mor Stage 3 since, as far as either of us know, nobody has ever tested the WS to get the fTP and WSC values. An old dev post says the mods are STR/MND, and all the Prime WS should have equal values between their two mods, so I'm assuming they're the same value.

We went into Sortie today on BRD, GEO/SCH, COR and used Dagda on the Acuexes at 3k TP to try to figure out the values. We spent some time tinkering around with chaos roll values and Shell Crusher to make sure we were attack capped before proceeding. Data was taken in two sets. Set 1 had 350 STR, 365 MND, and 60% WSD. Set 2 had 320 STR, 379 MND, and 40% WSD. The data set seems to have some second hit misses, some first hit kills, and some double attacks that pollute the data a little, but it get us close to an actual number for the 3k fTP and WSC. Note that these numbers are low since acuexes resist blunt. We were careful to not record any numbers from when the acuex STR/MND down was on or Monbereaux's STR/MND up was on, but it's possible we missed one here or there.

Set 1 Damage
10286
9685
9960
9864
9949
9947
9929
8895
9360
10338
9744
9946
9981
10046
9928
10247
9956
9600
10117
9895
10509
9871
9977
9728
9648

Set 2 Damage
7857
7910
7811
7982
7462
8000
7706
7871
8170
7715
7711
7779
7866
7927
7967
8225
8041
8111
7892
8016
7407
7878
7905
7771
7732
7949
7743
7807
8058
7821
8370

I'll add some easier data points for that.



Wild Rabbit in west ron, level -1
No WSD
Stage 4 Lorg Mor (so base DMG 227)
GEO/WHM

3k TP, STR 160, MND 175
17481
17950
17347

3k TP, STR 160, MND 232
18654
18448
18473

3k TP, STR 200, MND 175
18847
18870
18346

3k TP STR 338, MND 408
24861
24511
25082

Edit: never done the math before to solve for this but I think this is identical to Judgment but 2 hits. 50%/50% STR/MND with 12 fTP at 3k TP. The damage on other stuff seems nearly identical to Judgment too.

If you could get a ~1.05 spread high/low for the no fotia vs fotia it will simplify things greatly (same str and mnd in both sets)
Your spreads are ~1.2-1.3 which will need more data. Then repeat but add a bunch of mind (without fotia) but keep str constant

if you make one large assumption about what we know of other prime WS, you only need 3 sets of data.

The assumption is that the FTP growth is completely linear from 1k to 3k TP.

If you start with that assumption you only need:

1. 1k TP, naked, as close to 1.05 variance as you can.

2. 1k TP, fotia, as close to 1.05 variance as you can.

3. 3k TP, naked, as close to 1.05 variance as you can.

Those 3 data sets are all you need to figure out WSC and ftp for each prime WS.

Edit: If the assumption is accurate, if not, then you'll need a 4th data set at 2k.

So Genoxd's data doesn't have the full 5% spread but if you take the avg values and use 2.5% you can get something directional. I tried fitting ftp @3k = 11,12,13,14 but only found ftp = 13.5 with 40% STR and 40% MND fitting well. Anything else overshot/undershot in one of the situations. See below for calculations flooring only the WSC modifier. It would be interesting to verify further on this.


3k TP, STR 160, MND 175
pdif 3.25
2.5% randomizer 1.025
base 227
fstr 33
STR contribution 64
MND contribution 70
Calculated dmg = (227+33+64+70)*3.25*1.025*13.5 = 17,719.9
Genoxd avg dmg 17593


3k TP, STR 160, MND 232
pdif 3.25
multiplier 1.025
base 227
fstr 33
STR contribution 64
MND contribution 92
Calculated dmg = (227+33+64+92)*3.25*1.025*13.5 = 18,708.3
Genoxd avg dmg 18525


3k TP, STR 200, MND 175
pdif 3.25
multiplier 1.025
base 227
fstr 33
STR contribution 80
MND contribution 70
Calculated dmg = (227+33+80+70)*3.25*1.025*13.5 = 18,438.5
Genoxd avg dmg 18688


3k TP STR 338, MND 408
pdif 3.25
multiplier 1.025
base 227
fstr 33
STR contribution 135
MND contribution 163
Calculated dmg = (227+33+135+163)*3.25*1.025*13.5 = 25,094.3
Genoxd avg dmg 24818

You have wrong base. Its stage 4 227. The only thing that fits is 13.5 fTP and 40% STR/MND.

Thanks, I just re-calculated and edited my post. I agree 13.5 at 40% looks pretty close to what it could be.

This also means it's weaker dps than Maxentius/BlackHalo, but to be fair, Maxentius/BlackHalo is top tier dps.

Could someone please play around with store tp gear and report back with 5 weaponskills hitting 1k TP or very close to that for Dagda? On rabbits or anything easy that is obvious attack and fstr is capped and you just land the first hit of the WS.

I would say using average is not great: here is a data set I collected tonight that LOOKS like enough data:
Sword
3k 3k fotia
37579 38719
38027 38744
37974 39054
37195 38467
37986 38195
38675 37561
38817 37531
37677 38675
38547 37702
37556 37397
38935 37451
38486 38277
37774 37960
37696 38738
37768 39092
38275 37577
38354 37443
38047 38555
38797 38251
37514
38976
37575
38185
37212
38735
38585
38308
38978
38312
38499
37224

However, using the average with these data you anticipate ftp ~10 while the min-fotia/min ratio predicts ~18.x
Adding in more data to the second column and now the average predicts ftp ~40 but the min-fotia/min ratio still predicts 18.x
Additional fotia data:
37882
37673
38741
38550
38664
38253
39123
38513

Right now at 1.0479 and 1.0461 I am getting 18.4 for 3K


But also looks close to the data Ahlen posted 2023-12-23. There definitely needs to be more testing but I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher

Sorry I missed the replies, I'll set a reminder to do more testing this weekend

Aspens,

Can you confirm your data is all single hits, what job and subjob you were on, your DEX/MND, what base dmg your Caliburnus has and any WSD%+ gear or pdl+ gear you had? Also, what were you fighting?

From Ahlen's Imperator data I see fTP of 13.81. It fits fairly well but I am not sure what base dmg he had or if 70% are the currently accepted %'s. Can you take a look below at the values I am using and give me your thoughts?

Ahlen's Data Calc(3k TP, STR 204, DEX 184, MND 204, fTP13.81, +5% randomizer)
pdif 3.35 (3.25+0.1 pdl from SAM sub)
randomizer 1.05
base 181
fstr (assume capped) 28
70% DEX contribution 128
70% MND contribution 142
Calculated dmg = (181+28+128+142)*3.35*1*13.81 = 22,160
Calculated dmg w/ randomizer= (181+28+128+142)*3.35*1.05*13.81 = 23,268
Calculated Range 22,160 - 23,268
Ahlen's range 22,195 - 23,252

Now with Gorget (fTP +~0.098)
Calculated dmg = (181+28+128+142)*3.35*1*13.908 = 22,317
Calculated dmg w/ randomizer = (181+28+128+142)*3.35*1.05*13.908 = 23,433
Calculated Range 22,317 - 23,433
Ahlen's range 22,317 - 23,395

I have Oshala too if we need any more data on that one