Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

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Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-03-06 09:52:24
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I really don't care what anyone's opinion on it is, the idea that an ambuscade weapon that takes as little as an afternoon to complete completely destroys every single NIN REMA for physical damage is asinine and there is no justification for it. Skillchaining can pull something like Heishi or Dokoku ahead sometimes But skillchaining isn't always possible, advisable, or something that does damage at all, not to mention the prevalence of WS walls in current endgame content means being another Savage Blade user is actively detrimental to the group meaning NIN gets to either do *** damage or just sit out entirely.

Seems more like a Naegling issue than a prime weapon or 1h issue. I'd say Naegling beats the REMAs in terms of physical damage output for: BRD, COR, RNG, RDM, THF, DRG if you take skillchains out of the equation. It's probably closer than people want to admit for DRK and WAR. Naegling is just too strong for WS spam situations, NIN and primes aside.

1h users have been pretty screwed for a while though, even before prime weapons were released. The idea that primes were going to turn that around is pretty laughable, and if the prime WS became the only 1h WS that was competitive with 2h DPS then you'd end up with a new problem: prime would be required to play those jobs, and you'd only ever spam that WS in every situation. If they want 1h to be competitive with 2h they need to overhaul those weapons from the ground up, not provide a bandaid of making the prime WS stronger.

Wouldn't hurt to have some more mobs that are piercing and blunt weak though...seems like MNK and piercing jobs really got left in the dust lately.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2024-03-06 10:12:00
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Seems more like a Naegling issue than a prime weapon or 1h issue.

The Naegling issue is unrelated and was more to drive home how *** NIN is compared to mostly everything else for no god damn reason. The Prime WS being *** is entirely an issue with how 1h Prime WSs were made compared to 2h. You already admitted that you don't understand the math but Simon already summarized the biggest part of the problem; 1h weapons rely on WSC for a large portion of their base damage. Having a massive fTP multiplier doesn't mean ***when the number you're multiplying is half or a third the size when compared to a 2h WS. Primary reason WS like SB, Rudra, Expiacion are so strong compared to most other 1h WS is because they have massive 80-100% WSCs on top of a sizeable http://fTP. 1h Primes on the other hand have comparatively tiny WSC. 1h weapons also have significantly less natural pDIF caps than 2h ones and, unlike 2h weapons, generally speaking 1h weapons have to rely on Dual Wield to cap attack delay reduction which actively cuts into WS frequency while increasing it, diminishing the final benefit. Daken was added specifically to help mitigate this and TP Bonus offhands help too, but I will maintain until this game dies that TP Bonus Magians are a technical oversight or something that they simply couldn't make work properly and had to leave in their current state. They absolutely could not have been intended to work the way they do now and it's simply an artifact of the Augment system being ***.

All of this mixed together (as well as other things but these are some of the big ones) ends up keeping 1h weapons below 2h. One can make an argument for utility of things like Steps, Waltzes, Samba, Blue Magic, Ready moves making up for this in many cases but then you have 1h jobs who can't do those things who also get *** by proxy.


Anyway 1h jobs will never be as good as 2h ones and I'd never expect them to be but that doesn't change the fact that 1h Primes got done dirty in the end and outside of offering better WS properties in some fights where you want them, none of the 1h weapons are meta shattering or weapon redefining like I'd argue Foenaria and Gae Buide can be.
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By SimonSes 2024-03-06 11:38:21
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TP bonus is fine to address the avg WS damage against 2h Prime WSs under regular buffs. DRK wont be doing more WS damage with Gsword or Scythe at 1000TP+, than DNC will at 1000TP+
The problem is you can buff DRK with Boost-STR, Absorb STR/INT/VIT and most importantly war's warcry and even smn's crystal blessing and suddenly DRK is doing 99k at 1000TP, while 3000TP Ruthless stroke is limited to like 85k even with SV Aria and /DRG.

Also Saber Dance should reduce Dual Wield to 5%...
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2024-03-06 11:53:21
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In practice you aren't even doing 85k w/ ruthless. 60-70 outside of Climactic is already high and you're more likely to average closer to 50k, even lower on F/H. Positron can offer a much more seasoned and experienced account on this if he cares since he is the Sortie DNC afficionado though.

Meanwhile even my SAM which can't stack hundreds of extra stat points with Absorb spells has no trouble hitting 75k+ Mumeis without Yaeg. I've done that kind of damage with Expiacion and have seen it with Black Halo but in those cases it's always been under perfect conditions that my WAR or SAM do not need.
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-03-06 12:12:39
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
In practice you aren't even doing 85k w/ ruthless. 60-70 outside of Climactic is already high and you're more likely to average closer to 50k, even lower on F/H. Positron can offer a much more seasoned and experienced account on this if he cares since he is the Sortie DNC afficionado though.

Meanwhile even my SAM which can't stack hundreds of extra stat points with Absorb spells has no trouble hitting 75k+ Mumeis without Yaeg. I've done that kind of damage with Expiacion and have seen it with Black Halo but in those cases it's always been under perfect conditions that my WAR or SAM do not need.

I've been able to push about 75k on piercing neutral mobs with Ruthless. Average is in the mid to high 50s generally. I'm not saving to 3k or anything. On piercing weak I can get 90k without climactic or sneak attack.

Edit: The last time I did MLs, including climactic my average ruthless damage was 64k.

Edit: I have not used it on bosses in sortie, so can't speak to that.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2024-03-06 12:18:42
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Yeah 50-55k average would sound about right for sortie bosses (none of them have a piercing weakness). Normal mobs 70k+ which can be a problem since you need to space your ***out on Acuex lest they get *** up too fast. From what I've been told average goes to 40k and lower on F/H. I use Twashtar when I go dnc so can't directly compare ruthless
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By SimonSes 2024-03-06 14:17:04
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This is kinda old log, but just wanted to show what I mean by good Scarlet proc ;)
Code
[Dhartok] 1846 hit Baniak


Keep in mind this is no Aria and only R25 Nyame and Stage 3 Foenaria and I was spamming those Origins, but I had TP bonus from warcry. Not even sure if we had capped attack.
Code
[Baniak] Origin   Dhartok
[Baniak] 99999 Origin   Dhartok

[Baniak] Origin   Dhartok
[Baniak] 87501 Origin   Dhartok

[Baniak] Origin   Dhartok
[Baniak] 82982 Origin   Dhartok
Light: 99999   Dhartok

[Baniak] Origin   Dhartok
[Baniak] 99999 Origin   Dhartok

[Baniak] Origin   Dhartok
[Dhartok] Fetid Eddies   Omegus
[Baniak] 99999 Origin   Dhartok
 Bahamut.Skald
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By Bahamut.Skald 2024-03-06 14:20:34
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With geo for Aminon runs, outside climactic, generally firing a melee round over effective 2250, mid 50's to mid 60's in my experience on Dhartok and Aita, Triboulex with the benefit of circle allowing for 70-80 and having seen spikes in the 90's. For whatever reason Trib feels super squish beyond the effects of undead killer.

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Anyway 1h jobs will never be as good as 2h ones and I'd never expect them to be..
That's my take away on it specifically concerning dagger in that 2 of the 4 jobs absolutely should not have access to a WS that is competitive alongside 'heavy DD', however the disparity feels steeper than it needs to be.

Here's hoping they ninja bump stat mods for 1handers when they fix ruthless.
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By SimonSes 2024-03-06 14:27:17
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Bahamut.Skald said: »
Here's hoping they ninja bump stat mods for 1handers when they fix ruthless.

That would be amazing. I give it the same chance Lloyd got to pick up that chick in Dumb and Dumber.

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By Hopalong 2024-03-06 20:18:52
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(Kusanagi?)

Quote:
It's actually TA+6% on last stage, which makes it even more unbalanced.

I guess I missed that somewhere, checked wiki didn't see it.

Oh, I guess that's aftermath?
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-03-06 21:06:24
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Hopalong said: »
I guess I missed that somewhere, checked wiki didn't see it.

Oh, I guess that's aftermath?

He's saying (for prime weapons) TA is 6%, not 5%.

The stats on the weapons are all the same: 10 STP, 10 DA, or 6 TA.
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By wick 2024-03-06 22:21:05
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Shiva.Flowen said: »

We do low man 8 boss sortie runs with kusanagi SAM as the only person engaged on all 8. Pretty S tier material imo.

How do you do Aita with just SAM?
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-03-06 23:34:34
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I really don't care what anyone's opinion on it is, the idea that an ambuscade weapon that takes as little as an afternoon to complete completely destroys every single NIN REMA for physical damage is asinine and there is no justification for it. Skillchaining can pull something like Heishi or Dokoku ahead sometimes But skillchaining isn't always possible, advisable, or something that does damage at all, not to mention the prevalence of WS walls in current endgame content means being another Savage Blade user is actively detrimental to the group meaning NIN gets to either do *** damage or just sit out entirely.

Seems more like a Naegling issue than a prime weapon or 1h issue. I'd say Naegling beats the REMAs in terms of physical damage output for: BRD, COR, RNG, RDM, THF, DRG if you take skillchains out of the equation. It's probably closer than people want to admit for DRK and WAR. Naegling is just too strong for WS spam situations, NIN and primes aside.

1h users have been pretty screwed for a while though, even before prime weapons were released. The idea that primes were going to turn that around is pretty laughable, and if the prime WS became the only 1h WS that was competitive with 2h DPS then you'd end up with a new problem: prime would be required to play those jobs, and you'd only ever spam that WS in every situation. If they want 1h to be competitive with 2h they need to overhaul those weapons from the ground up, not provide a bandaid of making the prime WS stronger.

Wouldn't hurt to have some more mobs that are piercing and blunt weak though...seems like MNK and piercing jobs really got left in the dust lately.

They had no problem making Bow so powerful that it will get you killed even faster than normal. 1h jobs wish they could pull hate amd die. 2h are happy. It's just bad balance. Future content can always correct it, but that's in what, 5 years maybe?

It doesn't feel nice to have your preferred job(s) neglected for a long, undetermined duration.
 Fenrir.Positron
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By Fenrir.Positron 2024-03-06 23:56:42
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah 50-55k average would sound about right for sortie bosses (none of them have a piercing weakness). Normal mobs 70k+ which can be a problem since you need to space your ***out on Acuex lest they get *** up too fast. From what I've been told average goes to 40k and lower on F/H. I use Twashtar when I go dnc so can't directly compare ruthless

With good gear, it's nearly impossible to do 2x Ruthless on Acuex without killing them, short of making an intentionally weaker WS set for it. I do PK -> Evisceration for Blizzard MB on them. On Fomors I do Wasp Sting -> Gust Slash -> Wasp Sting -> Ruthless (-> Ruthless for the kill), and even that can be questionable especially if the routing gives us Soul Voice songs while we're in D.
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By SimonSes 2024-03-07 01:47:30
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Fenrir.Positron said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah 50-55k average would sound about right for sortie bosses (none of them have a piercing weakness). Normal mobs 70k+ which can be a problem since you need to space your ***out on Acuex lest they get *** up too fast. From what I've been told average goes to 40k and lower on F/H. I use Twashtar when I go dnc so can't directly compare ruthless

With good gear, it's nearly impossible to do 2x Ruthless on Acuex without killing them, short of making an intentionally weaker WS set for it. I do PK -> Evisceration for Blizzard MB on them. On Fomors I do Wasp Sting -> Gust Slash -> Wasp Sting -> Ruthless (-> Ruthless for the kill), and even that can be questionable especially if the routing gives us Soul Voice songs while we're in D.

I didn't know that 4step can kill fomor and it still count. I'm almost sure MB can't kill elemental in B or I doesn't count and I thought it's the same for multistep in D.
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By SimonSes 2024-03-07 01:59:36
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Phoenix.Iocus said: »
They had no problem making Bow so powerful that it will get you killed even faster than normal. 1h jobs wish they could pull hate amd die. 2h are happy. It's just bad balance. Future content can always correct it, but that's in what, 5 years maybe?

It doesn't feel nice to have your preferred job(s) neglected for a long, undetermined duration.

I wonder why people think RNG will kill itself after getting hate. It might be maybe true for Arebati, because of fetters, but normally RNG is very safe. In Sortie you can simply kite and still do damage. Even without Gravity bosses stops to do some moves all the time. Also even if you can't kite, RNG still has 50% DT and high meva/MDB, so not sure what's the problem. It kinda feels like outdated stereotype.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2024-03-07 03:15:56
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SimonSes said: »
Fenrir.Positron said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah 50-55k average would sound about right for sortie bosses (none of them have a piercing weakness). Normal mobs 70k+ which can be a problem since you need to space your ***out on Acuex lest they get *** up too fast. From what I've been told average goes to 40k and lower on F/H. I use Twashtar when I go dnc so can't directly compare ruthless

With good gear, it's nearly impossible to do 2x Ruthless on Acuex without killing them, short of making an intentionally weaker WS set for it. I do PK -> Evisceration for Blizzard MB on them. On Fomors I do Wasp Sting -> Gust Slash -> Wasp Sting -> Ruthless (-> Ruthless for the kill), and even that can be questionable especially if the routing gives us Soul Voice songs while we're in D.

I didn't know that 4step can kill fomor and it still count. I'm almost sure MB can't kill elemental in B or I doesn't count and I thought it's the same for multistep in D.

2nd Ruthless would be the 5th step. Steps count number of ws not number of skillchains. For the fomors you need 4 steps (3 skillchains) so the 2nd ruthless being a killing blow is valid. My go to on Sam is similar: Enpi Yukikaze Enpi Yukikaze Mumei
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By SimonSes 2024-03-07 04:45:36
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
2nd Ruthless would be the 5th step. Steps count number of ws not number of skillchains. For the fomors you need 4 steps (3 skillchains) so the 2nd ruthless being a killing blow is valid. My go to on Sam is similar: Enpi Yukikaze Enpi Yukikaze Mumei

Yeah all good, what I misunderstood was how he wrote that. I thought he was pointing out that first Ruthless is for the kill. I would wrote it:
Quote:
Wasp Sting -> Gust Slash -> Wasp Sting -> Ruthless -> Ruthless (for the kill)
so I just got confused.
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-03-07 06:18:37
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SimonSes said: »
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
They had no problem making Bow so powerful that it will get you killed even faster than normal. 1h jobs wish they could pull hate amd die. 2h are happy. It's just bad balance. Future content can always correct it, but that's in what, 5 years maybe?

It doesn't feel nice to have your preferred job(s) neglected for a long, undetermined duration.

I wonder why people think RNG will kill itself after getting hate. It might be maybe true for Arebati, because of fetters, but normally RNG is very safe. In Sortie you can simply kite and still do damage. Even without Gravity bosses stops to do some moves all the time. Also even if you can't kite, RNG still has 50% DT and high meva/MDB, so not sure what's the problem. It kinda feels like outdated stereotype.

Maybe people had a different experience with RNG, but for me people playing RNG regularly at all is a recent development because of Arebati + Odyssey gear for defense. A RNG that has a RDM to help regularly with Gravity II and mobs that are slow to jump on them is only a recent development. Every time I've used RNG in the past it's with barebones setups against terrible things we don't want to get close to. If it's a Trueflight fight it was never a problem, thus they don't make Trueflight fights anymore.

Turtle ambu was a ranged strat that hate resets by killing the tank, if you're slow on shadowbind then you die. On wave 2 bosses when first clearing them, they would b line to you and rip your face off. Not everything is so dramatic, but usually when I played RNG for new content it was doing questionable things in unknown territory.

The bow is a welcome change. Unlike 1H Primes.
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By SimonSes 2024-03-07 08:13:27
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I mean, I understand why you would be afraid to get aggro on stuff that you specifically fight with ranged setup, because melee setup is dying. What I don't understand is fear of RNG taking hate on stuff which melee do just fine.
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By Nariont 2024-03-07 08:21:17
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Just have a DT/hybrid idle/midshot set and you too can take hits to the face like war over there
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-03-07 09:02:00
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There is no problem if melee is fine. The only foot note is you wanted the mob 11 away for trueshot and now it's not. Yes that is moving the goal post and not what I'm saying anyways.

The point is they gave ranged volatile enough weapons that they CAN yank mobs and they universally gave 1 handers nothing in comparison except DNC access to light SC so their very strong JAs can be effective everywhere piercing damage is competitive.

I'm probably making the Sword next, but some of me just says to skip it and go straight to the polearm because 1handers are junk.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2024-03-23 18:44:14
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Does anyone know if Origin bypasses/ignores shadows?
Catastrophe and Entropy have this property,

Going to see if a Friend will kill me in Ballista for science.

I think the Drain/Aspir gimmick give it some kind of property.
 Ragnarok.Zabitaru
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By Ragnarok.Zabitaru 2024-04-03 07:40:07
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I noticed the scythe seemed to have an occasionally deals double damage hidden effect (like 10-15% proc rate) at stage 4 that became occasionally deals triple damage at stage 5. I didn't see anything about that on wiki. Am I crazy? Do all the prime weapons have this hidden effect, even the ranged ones?
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By Nariont 2024-04-03 07:53:09
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Yes
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By Dodik 2024-04-03 08:06:10
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Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Future content can always correct it

Who is going to tell him.
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-04-03 09:10:34
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Dodik said: »
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Future content can always correct it

Who is going to tell him.
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Future content can always correct it, but that's in what, 5 years maybe?

Just take half the sentence. You think we'll get nothing by 2029?
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By Dodik 2024-04-03 09:13:35
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No, I do not think we'll get anything by 2029. Doesn't matter if it's 5 years or 10.
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By Dubaiii 2024-04-11 12:55:05
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Must Have: Horn

Best Weapons: Great Katana, Dagger, Staff, Gun, Shield

Optional: The rest.

is the above correct?
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 Asura.Thunderjet
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By Asura.Thunderjet 2024-04-11 13:39:18
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hey guys shield is nice even the 1million gala is better than everything we have for paladin
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