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Yoshi-P and Matsui comment about adding new jobs
Lakshmi.Rooks
Administrator
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By Lakshmi.Rooks 2022-05-30 17:25:12
Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't done more with repurposed resources.
Like, I get that that's not ideal, and Ambuscade is already a good example of this, but there's so much stuff that got left behind with iLevel that could be brought up to speed with pretty minimal effort. I remain shocked there isn't an iLevel Limbus.
Valefor.Esdain
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By Valefor.Esdain 2022-05-30 18:17:57
XI has become the retirement home for cranky old granpas
Get off mah lawn, Draylo. Pull up those sagging pants and turn down that music!
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-05-30 18:47:01
Well FFXI has some pretty significant system issues that would need addressed, the importance of stacking haste and Samurai's Roll for one making BRD and COR pretty much required for stuff. I almost would prefer if they change haste from delay reduction to attack speed increase, then cut the HP of everything over level 75 in half (or more). Stuff where they deflate the monsters stats while deflating our buff stacking until party mixes aren't so strict.
On the other hand, the recent ML increase's have enabled RDM and SCH to actually be competitive with WHM for healing an optimized melee party. Of course we don't really feel that yet as current content locks subs, but once we get newer content it'll become very obvious. In the same vein NIN just got a really nice upgrade from /RUN and odyssea gear. I see them as a viable tank for end game, once we have access to subs. Katana WS's do need to be tweaked a bit, they aren't in as bad a place as H2H was but their not great either.
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Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2022-05-30 18:59:33
Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't done more with repurposed resources.
Like, I get that that's not ideal, and Ambuscade is already a good example of this, but there's so much stuff that got left behind with iLevel that could be brought up to speed with pretty minimal effort. I remain shocked there isn't an iLevel Limbus.
ilevel nyzul isle.
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By Valefor.Furyspawn 2022-05-30 19:03:28
still want them to create "ultimate" job armor that combines all +3 versions of the main JSE's into a single 5 item set.
This has been on my wish list for a long time too. Take the highest value for each stat, come up with some new model that mixes the designs of AF/Relic and Empy.
I also want to be able to synthesize REMAs together. Register each completed weapon with a NPC and when you get all of one type done, it unlocks whatever terribly grindy quest SE comes up with. And the afterglow on the weapon better be blurple.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2022-05-30 19:06:20
I almost would prefer if they change haste from delay reduction to attack speed increase,
Uh... I think you have those reversed. If Haste operated as a straight delay reduction like Blitzer's/MA/DW it'd reduce TP per hit.
Quote: Katana WS's do need to be tweaked a bit, they aren't in as bad a place as H2H was but their not great either.
Yes, physical Katana WSs are pretty awful. Boost Ten up to SB numbers and that'd already be helpful. Give Kamu a little more fTP (the attack bonus on it would make it useful sometimes if it wasn't basically operating on base damage alone...) and maybe boost Hi a little bit. I think Shun is alright as it is, it hits like a hardened pool noodle but it has favorable SC properties and a nice attack bonus. I look at it sort of like Katana's Kasha; decent middling damage but useful when it's useful.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2022-05-30 19:08:04
New jobs dont have to fill voids or niches. They can do the same thing other jobs do but with different style and perhaps one unique thing. Chemist can be another healer, but focus on using items so silence wont affect them. Just something new and fun to mess around. Just my opinion anyway
This is essentially the WoW/FF14 model: stick to the holy trinity and use job variety as a means of allowing players a variety of options and playstyles to achieve a given level of throughput.
Contrary to the kneejerk negative reaction a lot of people around here have I think it's a pretty good system, but it requires far more active dev involvement in balancing jobs than this game's ever had, much less what it'll have going forward.
Quote: Uh... I think you have those reversed. If Haste operated as a straight delay reduction like Blitzer's/MA/DW it'd reduce TP per hit.
No, he means how haste/DW/MA act in general. He's saying that 80% total Haste/DW should make your attack speed 180% of the base attack speed rather than 500%.
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Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-05-30 19:22:42
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I almost would prefer if they change haste from delay reduction to attack speed increase,
Uh... I think you have those reversed. If Haste operated as a straight delay reduction like Blitzer's/MA/DW it'd reduce TP per hit.
Quote: Katana WS's do need to be tweaked a bit, they aren't in as bad a place as H2H was but their not great either.
Yes, physical Katana WS are pretty awful. Boost Ten up to SB numbers and that'd already be helpful. Give Kamu a little more fTP (the attack bonus on it would make it useful sometimes if it wasn't basically operating on base damage alone...) and maybe boost Hi a little bit. I think Shun is alright as it is, it hits like a hardened pool noodle but it has favorable SC properties and a nice attack bonus.
Haste is still a delay reduction, all forms of attack speed in FFXI are delay reductions, just some simply aren't used for the TP gain formula.
Current FFXI
Percent increase over base = 100 * ((1024/(1024-Delay Reduction) * (1024/(1024-TP Delay Reduction))
There is a floor of (Original Delay * (205/1024))
Most other games have attack speed increase as a literal increase in attack speed instead of a minus to a denominator that gets turned into a multiplier.
Example of another game I play where alacrity is a linear increase
https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae
I think doing this would go a huge way to opening up party setups rather then having most jobs fight for the same one or two DD slots and BRD/COR being practically mandatory. Basically make our damage output less dependent on stacking haste and Samurai's Roll.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2022-05-30 19:27:06
There's some semantics to it. Every form of attack speed+ in the game reduces your attack delay, but Haste doesn't reduce your weapon's actual delay. If we want to be accurate, Haste already increases your attack speed but does not reduce your delay, because reducing your delay would mean reducing your TP per hit. The Haste spell itself directly refers to it as attack speed, even, whereas other forms of attack speed alteration that affect your delay refer to it as delay.
I fully understand what you're asking for, just the label has always been annoying to me.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2022-05-30 19:37:00
Valefor.Prothescar said: »There's some semantics to it. Every form of attack speed+ in the game reduces your attack delay, but Haste doesn't reduce your weapon's actual delay. If we want to be accurate, Haste already increases your attack speed but does not reduce your delay, because reducing your delay would mean reducing your TP per hit. The Haste spell itself directly refers to it as attack speed, even, whereas other forms of attack speed alteration that affect your delay refer to it as delay.
I fully understand what you're asking for, just the label has always been annoying to me.
But that's a specific design decision unrelated to the mechanics he's talking about. Haste/DW always worked as a reduction, but the decision to change DW so that it reduced your TP didn't happen until the game was a couple years old. We could get the change he's discussing and DW could still reduce TP per hit, or not, depending on whether SE flips that particular switch.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-05-30 19:38:41
Valefor.Prothescar said: »There's some semantics to it. Every form of attack speed+ in the game reduces your attack delay, but Haste doesn't reduce your weapon's actual delay. If we want to be accurate, Haste already increases your attack speed but does not reduce your delay, because reducing your delay would mean reducing your TP per hit.
I fully understand what you're asking for, just the label has always been annoying to me.
Because mathematically, in FFXI, it's a literal decrease to the delay value. This model is simple and easy to implement but gets really busted at high values.
As players we figured this out and exploited the heck out of it to beat content, SE then responded by increasing monsters HP to accommodate our %400 increase in DPS and we've been in an arms race ever since. Deflating it by reducing the insane power of stacking haste (while reducing monster HP) would go a long way to not requiring BRD+COR everywhere. Now that tanks and healers have been diversified, it's the last place of extreme imbalance.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2022-05-30 19:44:02
the most important question here is whether you'd be ready to welcome your new white-damage RDM and MNK overlords
Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2022-05-30 19:48:26
Percent increase over base = 100 * ((1024/(1024-Delay Reduction) * (1024/(1024-TP Delay Reduction)) Okay but how long to proc?
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-05-30 19:49:35
the most important question here is whether you'd be ready to welcome your new white-damage RDM and MNK overlords
Lol, I don't think it would be that bad since this would also change MNK and RDM's white damage. It's a flat, across the board reduction by over half. Which is why we'd need monsters HP to be reduced by 50~70% to accommodate our reduction in damage. Someone at 80% haste would act the same as someone now acts with 45.6% haste.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-05-30 19:50:41
Percent increase over base = 100 * ((1024/(1024-Delay Reduction) * (1024/(1024-TP Delay Reduction)) Okay but how long to proc?
Crayons
Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2022-05-30 19:58:09
An Onion Knight that works like Gogo in FF6 would be kinda neat. You can select 2 abilities from what you have mastered, but can only change one of them every Vana day. So you could set White Magic and Black Magic, or have the JAs of a DRK while you toss out Ifrit. You would still have access to a subjob as well.
Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-05-31 00:23:32
Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't done more with repurposed resources.
Like, I get that that's not ideal, and Ambuscade is already a good example of this, but there's so much stuff that got left behind with iLevel that could be brought up to speed with pretty minimal effort. I remain shocked there isn't an iLevel Limbus.
Still hoping that one day we'll get a real reworking of my favorite FFXI event of old; they did Limbus dirty with the totally uninspired lv99 versions.
As for other repurposed stuff... they could do additional paths of Sinister Reign for some rather easy to develop content that would keep people grinding for a long time. Arena fight with random encounters from a set list of 3 NMs per "tier". Maybe add new Neo-SR lineups in stages, with a new batch every few months until they have several "wings" for some content that will last for a long time. Or maybe mix them up for another monthly reset a la Ambuscade with 3 different batches of 3 per month.
It does have somewhat of an Ambuscade/Gaol vibe, which is maybe why we haven't seen it, but the randomness of the mobs would be a difference and they absolutely already follow a similar approach of reusing enemy models with stuff like Geas Fete Sky/Sea NMs, Gaol reusing the Naakuals (great call, IMO), Abyssea's NMs, etc. Could do new sets every so often and keep players engaged for fairly minimal dev effort.
So many possibilities for fun reappearances:
* Classic world spawn HNMs: Simurgh Roc Serket
* OG kings: Fafhogg Behemoth Turtle
* Aht Urghan Kings: Hydra Khimera Cerberus
* HNM Wyrms: Tiamat Jormy Vrtra
* Beastmen leaders: Yagudo (Tzee Xicu) Quadav (Za'Dha Adamantking) Orc (Overlord Bakgodek)
* Aht Urghan Beastmen leaders: Medusa Gulool Gurfurlur
* Heroes from the 3 nations: Trion Shantotto Zeid
* Heroines 1: Lion Prishe Aphmau
* Heroines 2: Lilisette Arciela Iroha
* Crusty Old Dudes: Maat Gilgamesh Cid
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By Odin.Lusiphur 2022-05-31 01:18:55
they could do additional paths of Sinister Reign ***. NO.
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By Rips 2022-05-31 01:36:38
i don't remember people being disappointed with cop not adding any jobs, but i def do remember the hype and speculation around the toau jobs.
while not bad, the wotg and adoulin jobs just seemed forced a bit.
When WOTG came out, I recall the forum I was on for my server (QCDN.org - RIP) that people went NUTS when Dancer came out.
The ability to heal yourself with TP was unheard of and I'm confident that was the most welcomed job up until Adoulin.
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By Nariont 2022-05-31 02:27:21
Dnc struggled a bit until people saw the value of haste samba, especially after they git their t1 merits. Sch quickly went from zero to hero once they adjusted arts and then promptly took blms spot since they could compete in nukes and offer additional utility.
By Rips 2022-05-31 02:34:09
I remember a sea of soloers for both BLU and DNC when they came out.
Can't seem to get this memory of worms getting bluedgeon'd to death in Qufim out of my head.
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By Valefor.Furyspawn 2022-05-31 02:34:09
DNC was one of the most technical jobs SE had released at the point it came out, with multiple resources to manage on fairly short intervals and several different types of spenders. I specifically made a second character to be DNC main when WotG came out and had a blast playing it.
By the time I got to Aydeewa Subterrane's Defoliators in XP parties, I could backup heal, backup tank, noticeably debuff the mob's evasion and defense, haste the party through sambas, and still crank out surprising damage on WSs and SCs.
DNC/MNK with H2H was also a lot of fun for self-skillchains, especially on stuff that was weak to blunt.
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By Starbucks 2022-05-31 03:05:59
Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't done more with repurposed resources.
Like, I get that that's not ideal, and Ambuscade is already a good example of this, but there's so much stuff that got left behind with iLevel that could be brought up to speed with pretty minimal effort. I remain shocked there isn't an iLevel Limbus.
Still hoping that one day we'll get a real reworking of my favorite FFXI event of old; they did Limbus dirty with the totally uninspired lv99 versions.
As for other repurposed stuff... they could do additional paths of Sinister Reign for some rather easy to develop content that would keep people grinding for a long time. Arena fight with random encounters from a set list of 3 NMs per "tier". Maybe add new Neo-SR lineups in stages, with a new batch every few months until they have several "wings" for some content that will last for a long time. Or maybe mix them up for another monthly reset a la Ambuscade with 3 different batches of 3 per month.
It does have somewhat of an Ambuscade/Gaol vibe, which is maybe why we haven't seen it, but the randomness of the mobs would be a difference and they absolutely already follow a similar approach of reusing enemy models with stuff like Geas Fete Sky/Sea NMs, Gaol reusing the Naakuals (great call, IMO), Abyssea's NMs, etc. Could do new sets every so often and keep players engaged for fairly minimal dev effort.
So many possibilities for fun reappearances:
* Classic world spawn HNMs: Simurgh Roc Serket
* OG kings: Fafhogg Behemoth Turtle
* Aht Urghan Kings: Hydra Khimera Cerberus
* HNM Wyrms: Tiamat Jormy Vrtra
* Beastmen leaders: Yagudo (Tzee Xicu) Quadav (Za'Dha Adamantking) Orc (Overlord Bakgodek)
* Aht Urghan Beastmen leaders: Medusa Gulool Gurfurlur
* Heroes from the 3 nations: Trion Shantotto Zeid
* Heroines 1: Lion Prishe Aphmau
* Heroines 2: Lilisette Arciela Iroha
* Crusty Old Dudes: Maat Gilgamesh Cid At this point they might as well just add new kings with elite drops back in. But also make those zones lawless. Bots and drama is fun.
By Nariont 2022-05-31 03:14:42
jokes aside i think theyve written off most of the old kings via UNM "copies", beastmen kings are covered via ambuscade, still waiting on that ilvl bahamut fight though, maybe 1 day
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Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-05-31 03:21:35
iLVL the mini expansion rewards too, and make it so you can get all 3 of each one! those are absolutely pointless.
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By Odin.Creaucent 2022-05-31 05:36:26
Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't done more with repurposed resources.
Like, I get that that's not ideal, and Ambuscade is already a good example of this, but there's so much stuff that got left behind with iLevel that could be brought up to speed with pretty minimal effort. I remain shocked there isn't an iLevel Limbus.
Still hoping that one day we'll get a real reworking of my favorite FFXI event of old; they did Limbus dirty with the totally uninspired lv99 versions.
As for other repurposed stuff... they could do additional paths of Sinister Reign for some rather easy to develop content that would keep people grinding for a long time. Arena fight with random encounters from a set list of 3 NMs per "tier". Maybe add new Neo-SR lineups in stages, with a new batch every few months until they have several "wings" for some content that will last for a long time. Or maybe mix them up for another monthly reset a la Ambuscade with 3 different batches of 3 per month.
It does have somewhat of an Ambuscade/Gaol vibe, which is maybe why we haven't seen it, but the randomness of the mobs would be a difference and they absolutely already follow a similar approach of reusing enemy models with stuff like Geas Fete Sky/Sea NMs, Gaol reusing the Naakuals (great call, IMO), Abyssea's NMs, etc. Could do new sets every so often and keep players engaged for fairly minimal dev effort.
So many possibilities for fun reappearances:
* Classic world spawn HNMs: Simurgh Roc Serket
* OG kings: Fafhogg Behemoth Turtle
* Aht Urghan Kings: Hydra Khimera Cerberus
* HNM Wyrms: Tiamat Jormy Vrtra
* Beastmen leaders: Yagudo (Tzee Xicu) Quadav (Za'Dha Adamantking) Orc (Overlord Bakgodek)
* Aht Urghan Beastmen leaders: Medusa Gulool Gurfurlur
* Heroes from the 3 nations: Trion Shantotto Zeid
* Heroines 1: Lion Prishe Aphmau
* Heroines 2: Lilisette Arciela Iroha
* Crusty Old Dudes: Maat Gilgamesh Cid
Most of the stuff on that list already has an ilvl version.
1, Unity
2, Unity
3, Unity
4, No ilvl
5, Master trial and Ambuscade
6, Part of Tumult's fight and Ambuscade
7, No ilvl apart from Zeid who was in an ilvl BC with Lion and Aldo
8, Master trial
9, Master trial
10, No ilvl
By Starbucks 2022-05-31 05:58:04
jokes aside i think theyve written off most of the old kings via UNM "copies", beastmen kings are covered via ambuscade, still waiting on that ilvl bahamut fight though, maybe 1 day Not even joking. Lawless zones where people can bot and ***talk each other would probably bring people back!
By Afania 2022-05-31 09:20:58
New jobs dont have to fill voids or niches. They can do the same thing other jobs do but with different style and perhaps one unique thing. Chemist can be another healer, but focus on using items so silence wont affect them. Just something new and fun to mess around. Just my opinion anyway
That would have worked in single player game but in MMO when everyone and their mother complain for 100 pages every time 1 job is slightly OP/too weak? I don't think so!
Even pure DD jobs like DRG SAM WAR MNK DRK do the same thing with different style, and even then it wasn't until very recently that people finally complain less about one DD doing more dmg than another. Oh wait... They still complain about jobs that can wear naeg lol.
Last time when they added RUN and GEO, they tweaked RUN for years until 2 tank jobs are FINALLY kinda equal. And GEO is still not balanced, to the point that they had to force nerf it in Odyssey.
If I'm Matsui, I wouldn't comment on new jobs in such a nice way lol. I'd just say "more jobs than 22 to balance? No thanks. Don't make my life any hardet plz" lol.
By Starbucks 2022-05-31 09:47:13
PLD is balanced with RUN now?
Part 2 of their interview is up on the We Are Vanadiel website. It's a good read for those interested but this most intriguing portion, I think.
Matsui: It’s honestly quite a struggle to give names to things in long-standing titles like FFXI and FFXIV.
Yoshida: Job names are especially tough. (laughs wryly) After all, there’s no point if a job is similar to its namesake in name only; its gameplay experience needs to match their pre-established design too. At this point, I’m thinking we have no choice but to come up with brand new jobs that haven’t appeared in the FF series before.
- I certainly see why, considering there’s already 22 jobs in FFXI and 20 jobs in FFXIV.
Matsui: As long as new game elements aren’t being introduced, new jobs are designed to fulfill a battle role that can already be filled by an existing job. That said, we can’t release a superior version of a certain job, and a new job that offers the same experience as an existing one would defeat the purpose of adding a new job. In that sense, it’s very difficult to come up with a new job.
Yoshida: From a system perspective, if the number of jobs is fixed and well-balanced, there’s no need to add more, and adding new jobs would obviously cause a stir. But nevertheless, we always need to add more jobs to keep providing new gameplay experiences.
Matsui: Back in Chains of Promathia, we were heavily criticized by foreign media for releasing a new expansion without any new jobs. Considering that, we might say it’s a “rule of design” to provide either a new job or playable race as the main feature of a new expansion.
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