Final Fantasy XI: Top Five Jobs (Ruaumoko )

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Final Fantasy XI: Top Five Jobs (Ruaumoko )
 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-10-13 17:04:21
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Still don't know why almost 20 years later, Call Wyvern is on a 20 minute timer.
It has not been 20mins for that long.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-10-13 17:12:29
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Asura.Iamaman said: »
Probably the same reason Bestial Loyalty is on a 20minute timer.

Bestial Loyalty is 1 free pet every 20 minutes. CB can get down to like ~3:35. And BL was added long after CB was part of BST, as a way to cut down on consumption. You also get unlimited pets during Unleash. That is not the same.

Asura.Bippin said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Still don't know why almost 20 years later, Call Wyvern is on a 20 minute timer.
It has not been 20mins for that long.

Yes, it was even WORSE before. Should have never been that long in the first place, but 20 minutes is still too long for any job ability.. The entire job revolves around keeping your guy alive. There is no reason to have that kind of penalty for dying or losing your pet, as you effectively become useless afterwards. PUP nor BST have anything close to that kind of handicap.
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By Asura.Iamaman 2021-10-13 17:26:11
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
[li]
Bestial Loyalty is 1 free pet every 20 minutes. CB can get down to like ~3:35. And BL was added long after CB was part of BST, as a way to cut down on consumption. You also get unlimited pets during Unleash. That is not the same.

I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree. There may have been a time when that was right, when pet jugs were readily available, but the current state of the game is such that jugs are not commonly for sale and, those that are, are very expensive. The result being that for some pets, you have a small number of jugs for and hesitate to use if BL is down, because losing the jug means locating another is a chore and expensive. I don't know many BSTs that have stacks of the HQ jugs.

I think in theory they are different, but in practice they are closer given the state of the game. So when your pet dies, you lose a lot of your value/utility, and have to choose between dumping 300-500k down the drain to summon a pet that won't zone with you (and may be difficult to find someone to replace) or lose a lot of your function.

This, of course, doesn't apply to the handful of jugs available from the NPC.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-10-13 18:47:18
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Take timers out jug availability out of the equation: BST will perform just fine using a normal quality jug vs a high quality, since you're very unlikely to be using the pet for it's damage anyways. It's more of a luxury for the buffs, losing a jug is not a hindrance to the job unless the strategy revolves around the pet's specific abilities. DRG is in a different boat. You lose it, you lose a chunk of your buffs. Not really the same situation.
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By Asura.Vyre 2021-10-14 00:49:04
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*Fondly remembers when Call Wyvern was 2hrs* Yeah... 20 minutes is OK.

Does seem due to be given another option to call it out though. Even some form of Deus ex Wyvern or some shiz. Or maybe like, Wyvernheart or something... summon the Wyvern at full HP for like half of yours or something on a 5 minute timer. It'd be nice.

As far as BST goes, if you're serious about it... leveling cooking? That's how even the top tier jugs are still made, right?

I mean, I'm sure the mats and the HQ rate are no picnic, but probably saves you dough on not just jugs but pet food too.
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2021-10-14 01:22:30
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Starbucks said: »
A widely reported post

socialism is when you find new ways to have fun in a video game
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By SimonSes 2021-10-14 02:49:52
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Asura.Iamaman said: »
I'm about to finish my path c Fudo and will experiment with this more, but I tend to agree. I can generally keep hate as long as the party is setup properly. This was the case with 75 cap also, NIN could lose hate to a BLM going too wild or other jobs not managing enmity. That said, the fact katana WS are so weak in comparison to what other jobs are doing (e.g. SAM/DNC knocking out 99k SCs, MNK hitting 50k+ WSs, etc) can make it trickier than it used to be. Yes, I know hybrids can hit 99k, but it is contextual based on elemental weaknesses of the mob (context that isn't required for most other jobs) AND requires path B nyame (back to my first post about how this is out of reach for most).

The issue being that shadow tanking is too difficult right now because you either have too many adds (NIN will never supertank), mobs that wipe shadows, or worse, mobs that bypass shadows. I think SE could balance out NIN for more of a tanking role by fixing the way this works somewhat and making shadows more useful. I think with Darkblade, it might be a creative way to solve this by allowing AoE spells to consume a shadow if everyone in the party has them up when the spell lands, but that may be too much work to implement and is probably a pipe dream.

Nin wanting to keep hate doesn't really try to do it with damage. You spam Utsusemi, one after the other. Ofc it doesnt really work on stuff with low lvl/HP and when DDs zerg something spamming 60k WSs (unless you have Darkblade :P).

You need to understand how enmity works. High lvl mobs (true levels above 99) will have very reduced enmity from dealing damage to them, while enmity from using hate actions like spells/ja will have fixed enmity. Thats why dealing damage is super effective to keep hate when mob is lvl 99. DD jobs can reach hate on them in few WSs. On something like Wave 3 boss tho, DD jobs can even do like 2M damage and still not cap hate. Much more if they have enmity- in gear/buffs. Utsusemi cast under Yonin is 160CE/480VE. Its almost twice less than Foil, but Utsusemi has virtually no cooldown like Foil, because you have 3 separate spells. Spamming shadows also in general completely negates physical hits you can take. People trying to "tank" on NIN usually do it wrong and don't tank, but rather act like hybrid DD, casting shadows only when they need them for survivability and that's why NIN has stereotype of tank that can't keep hate.

The only NIN problem here is lack of big hate bomb on start, that PLD and RUN both have in form of their regular JAs and if needed giant hate bombs from their SPs.

Thats why Yagyu Darkblade is such a big deal and wet dream of NIN. Because with full party around, your base enmity from utsusemi on 6 ppl becomes 960CE/2880VE, which is HUGE for something that you can spam every 4 sec and it let NIN build up initial hate very fast and then easily reach hate cap before DDs on any higher lvl mob.
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By Bahamut.Radda 2021-10-14 07:43:16
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Chaplin said: »
Ruaumoko said: »
I genuinely wanted to get a discussion going

You replied to a whole 1 comment. Not a very deep discussion.


Getting a discussion going can mean getting the community to discuss their favorite jobs. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were planning on being an active participant.
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By Bahamut.Radda 2021-10-14 07:46:29
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Chaplin said: »
Yeah ok.

For real, stand by


lol why are you so salty, bro? Forreal, why are you so upset?
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2021-10-14 15:54:56
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SimonSes said: »
Unpopular opinion but if keeping alive is what's important, then there is probably at least 2 jobs between WHM and SCH, from which BLU probably offers more than SCH in other aspects of the fight.

I couldn't say one way or the other but that really just proves the point: the primary, brute-force functions of the Holy Trinity are now met at an exceedingly low bar, allowing for greater flexibility.

I'd actually be more excited to see what SE would have coming down the pike for the Pure Numbers Jobs like WHM and WAR than I would be the hybrids (that I actually play), if I were confident anything like that were really going to happen and they weren't just jerking our chain. They might actually need some more utility to stay viable! Nutty!
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By Starbucks 2021-10-14 16:00:18
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WHM RUN PLD BRD COR
WAR DRK SAM MNK RNG
RDM SCH THF DRG GEO
BLM BLU NIN SMN DNC
PUP BST
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-10-14 16:10:53
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RUN BRD COR GEO WHM
WAR DRK RDM RNG MNK
SMN NIN


SCH THF DRG BLM BLU DNC PUP BST SAM PLD don't really matter in objective strength, but you can argue that TH is necessary or MB setups for mobs that require them, or having to use PLD in odyssey because you can only use RUN once. The nice thing about XI is that objective strength is rarely all that matters though, there's so much niche content that almost all jobs had or have some place where they really shine.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-15 02:31:22
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
SCH THF DRG BLM BLU DNC PUP BST SAM PLD don't really matter in objective strength

I disagree here.

BLU and BST are both uniquely powerful for reset TP strategy, especially when Mewing is gimped like on Mboze. You can say reset TP strategy is not required for anything, but so are most other strategies in the game (you can usually use at least few to beat something). I don't see how DRK and WAR are in first group and SAM and DRG isnt (I understand MNK in first group because its quite unique for really low tp feed like last Frog ambu)? If anything DRG and SAM seems to have more unique additions to raw damage than WAR. Especially SAM's Yaegasumi seems to be the basic of several strategies like lowman Tumult Curator. I'm 50/50 on DNC. Its not required, but also provides unique def down and JA haste, which might be only way to almost cap delay on some builds and to cap pdif when geomancy is nerfed. It might not be needed, but its still unique. SCH might not matter in objective strength for groups, but for solo and lowman it matters a lot. There are some mobs that are super hard or impossible to solo/lowman, while they are quite easy to kill with helixes. Kinda similar for PUP too. For party/alliance it might not matter, but for solo/lowman it matters a lot and I dont think you can exclude solo/lowman, since many people plays this way.

Ofc all that I wrote can go under "The nice thing about XI is that objective strength is rarely all that matters though, there's so much niche content that almost all jobs had or have some place where they really shine. ", but then why you even made a list in the first place when half of the jobs on that list are arguably on it, only because they also goes under that quotation?
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By Draylo 2021-10-15 03:15:08
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BLU #1 always
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By SimonSes 2021-10-15 03:56:22
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Draylo said: »
BLU #1 always

While we are at it, Cruel Joke is another unique thing that BLU provides that is relevant for current endgame.
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By Starbucks 2021-10-15 04:58:28
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But GEO is nerfed in Odyssey so should it really be top tier if we are talking about the entire game in general?

I only put PLD in there because no matter what you are doing it is always hardest to find a tank.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-10-15 06:11:33
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SimonSes said: »
Ofc all that I wrote can go under "The nice thing about XI is that objective strength is rarely all that matters though, there's so much niche content that almost all jobs had or have some place where they really shine. ", but then why you even made a list in the first place when half of the jobs on that list are arguably on it, only because they also goes under that quotation?

I made a list because it seemed like a fun thought exercise to rank the jobs' value. I don't think FFXI is a game that really needs tiers, because the balance patches intentionally overpower a new job every time and it's been in constant rotation since the game started. There are so many unique factors that your impression of what job is best is going to be heavily biased by what content you do.

I don't think judging based on primarily Odyssey is fair, because that is probably a small portion of the content for most players(if they even do it). If someone were to gear up going through every content in order, I believe the jobs high on my list would provide the most overall value, even if specific fights favor others.

That said, I think BLU probably should be somewhere in the ranking, because even aside from Cruel Joke it's pretty much the AOE god. Being able to solo cap haste without trust is also neat, though the amount of content that still doesn't allow trust is quite small.
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By Mattelot 2021-10-15 06:45:34
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Starbucks said: »
But GEO is nerfed in Odyssey so should it really be top tier if we are talking about the entire game in general?

I was fine with a little nerfing to Geo but some of the %s are pretty extreme. That's a bad way to balance something you didn't realize was going to be so powerful when you created it. It doesn't stop me from playing it but I can imagine the frustration some people may have had after making Idris. While the ergon weapon process is one of the easiest of the rmeas, the 6.5 month journey just to be able to start it is a lot of time that some end up wasting.


Shiva.Thorny said: »
I made a list because it seemed like a fun thought exercise to rank the jobs' value.

And that's pretty much all any threads or replies like this are, fun thought exercise. There is no official "best" jobs in any game unless the developers state such. Random people on the internet's anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. Random people on the internet are not the final say in what is/isn't good. However, that does not discredit them. It's interesting to hear some rationale from others who may shine a light on a job that you didn't think about.

Shiva.Thorny said: »
the amount of content that still doesn't allow trust is quite small.

Some of the types of content that still do not allow them at this stage in the game are eye-rolling.
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-10-15 08:01:05
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Draylo said: »
BLU #1 always
Even though I'm still on my journey to find out my true favourite job, I'm doubtful it'll ever change from Blue Mage. It's just so flexible. I fell in love with the cool spellcasting animation and married it when I could spam alternating Head Butt and Bludgeon until my opponent fell into a heap of bruises.

I doubt I would have had the confidence to take on Cloud of Darkness solo as any other job with only Espial/Eminent gear xD
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-10-15 08:59:12
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Starbucks said: »
But GEO is nerfed in Odyssey so should it really be top tier if we are talking about the entire game in general?

I only put PLD in there because no matter what you are doing it is always hardest to find a tank.

...what fights do you need RUN in today besides Ongo? PLD is, if anything, a better overall tank than RUN now. Certainly far better for farming segments and it can help with AoE heals when you don't have WHM for Odyssey NMs. Rune fencer is still very useful for Dyna-D wave 3, of course, if you use magical damage, but other fights, stuff like Geas Fete, you can pretty much just use DDs in hybrid gear to tank.
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By Mattelot 2021-10-15 09:46:46
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Asura.Sirris said: »
PLD is, if anything, a better overall tank than RUN now.

As a RUN, that has always been my personal thought too. I personally believe both have their uses. There is content that one may out-shine the other and some content where if you're with a strong group, it really doesn't matter much which you use. However, the number of experienced players I've talked to who laugh when you mention using PLD over RUN in just about anything is staggering. Comments like "Who uses PLD anymore?" or "PLD? What is this? 2012?", etc are not uncommon.
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By Bismarck.Zubuis 2021-10-15 10:01:22
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Both tank jobs are very viable. RUN obviously shines on MB type of setups. PLD is a very strong healer with majesty.

I think one issue with PLD is that you need a lot more REMA to max its potential out. If you have a R15 burtgang, it really changes the job, because with atonement and majesty heals, its really strong. Then you have a few more shields to make so you're good for all situations. I think its a bit easier to gear outside of REMA, the ease of getting a sakpata's set really makes the job easier to play.

RUN has a lot more hate tools to hold hate. With RUN once you have EPEO you're good to go. I think it does require more gear sets to pull it off though (for max potential). I think its a harder job to play and master than PLD though, there a lot more job abilities/spells to manage and requires more knowledge about the monsters you are fighting.
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By Afania 2021-10-15 12:13:17
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Ragnarok.Primex said: »
And more often than not you can kinda experience it all by combining them as main/sub, and not really miss out on some unique experience in the game.

Playing DNC/DD doesn't feel like playing most DD/DNC at all. Most DD in FFXI is about using the right "build" for the right situation and spam WS fastest possible for max DPS. DNC is more about timing of JA combo and time your SC correctly for max DPS.

A DD/DNC only gets support JA, it doesn't change how a DD can reach max DPS. And /DNC doesn't make precise timing a requirement to DPS well if that DD main is a already "spam WS" DD.
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By RadialArcana 2021-10-15 15:44:28
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Starbucks said: »
But GEO is nerfed in Odyssey so should it really be top tier if we are talking about the entire game in general?

I only put PLD in there because no matter what you are doing it is always hardest to find a tank.

What infuriates me if they never tell you, players have to figure this stuff out.

So people who don't follow the chatter on forums may never understand Geo was actually nerfed in specific content. Either that, or someone reads about the nerf and just assumes geo was nerfed everywhere.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-16 06:24:56
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RadialArcana said: »
Starbucks said: »
But GEO is nerfed in Odyssey so should it really be top tier if we are talking about the entire game in general?

I only put PLD in there because no matter what you are doing it is always hardest to find a tank.

What infuriates me if they never tell you, players have to figure this stuff out.

So people who don't follow the chatter on forums may never understand Geo was actually nerfed in specific content. Either that, or someone reads about the nerf and just assumes geo was nerfed everywhere.

SE feels like its an FFXI culture and standard to cover this info and let players figure it out. They take "not holding your hand" part of FFXI very seriously to keep the difference between it and modern mmorpgs.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-16 06:27:18
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Afania said: »
Ragnarok.Primex said: »
And more often than not you can kinda experience it all by combining them as main/sub, and not really miss out on some unique experience in the game.

Playing DNC/DD doesn't feel like playing most DD/DNC at all. Most DD in FFXI is about using the right "build" for the right situation and spam WS fastest possible for max DPS. DNC is more about timing of JA combo and time your SC correctly for max DPS.

A DD/DNC only gets support JA, it doesn't change how a DD can reach max DPS. And /DNC doesn't make precise timing a requirement to DPS well if that DD main is a already "spam WS" DD.

I agree with this, but also not everyone try to play optimally on DNC and then they wont feel that difference.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-16 08:56:34
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Ok this is my comment to video itself.

1. RDM is good and versatile, but pug group will prefer specialists. RDM mostly have a place in statics, where players know how to take advantage of RDM (changing 2nd march to different song as simplest example).
2. I dont think Mpaca changed the situation that much for PUP fighting alongside automaton (Mpaca changed a lot for PUP master damage for sure tho). Sure its good for master. Sure it gives accuracy, +1lv and 10%WSD to automaton, but its nowhere close to real pet gear that gives stp/da/DT/Haste. Especially DT and Haste is a problem when you want to melee alongside automaton and Mpaca doesn't help here at all. You still need Heyoka for haste and your automaton is still kinda vulnerable to AoE damage (which you can counter with attachments and using earth and/or water attachments, but that lowers automatons damage significantly).
3. UNPOPULAR OPINION. DNC is considered as DD job with active gameplay. You do steps, waltzes, sambas and flourishes to boost party damage/survivability/etc sometimes sacrificing yours. It looks natural when playing DNC and none questioning that. Why its then completely reversed when sacrificing DPS on DRK to cast absorbs/stun/dreadSpikes/drains/etc. which also can boost party and yours survivability/damage/etc. and make gameplay on DRK much more active and similar to DNCs? The same could be said about BLU too. There is tons of utility spells that sacrifice own dps to boost survivability and dps of whole party, but its not praised as "active gameplay" on BLU, but rather as "not worth casting, just spam WS". I don't get it. Im asying that as DNC main, so no hate towards this job. I just feel like its weird.
4. SCH should have Addendums written in Arts (so you dont need to use Stratagem for addendum after switching art). Helix should tic faster. SCH is ok healer, but imo BLU is the best healer outside of WHM and it's kinda funny none even talk about BLU healer when people discuss this topic.
5. I don't understand what Rua is saying about NIN having mechanic advantage to use hybrid WS over SAM? Maybe that Dual Wield gives you more chances to multi attack proc over SAM's GKT hybrid WSs that are single hit beside :Jinpu? That's kinda true, but it's countered by SAM/GKT having better PDL, base damage, Overhelm, WSC etc. SAM also have 4 hybrid WSs, while NIN has 3 and also SAM can self SC up to 7 steps spamming Jinpu. I dont think NIN has any advantage over SAM in term of Hybrid WSs.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-10-16 09:49:47
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The thing about dancer is that most of your support routine is built directly into your dps routine. Box step and feather step are your biggest abilities that increase party damage, and in addition to benefiting you as well as the party they also generate you finishing moves which you can channel into even more damage via flourishes. And while waltzes, your other primary support function directly conflicts with your dps output, you generate tp at a pretty staggering rate and they're absurdly potent relative to what to the support actions of blu and drk can do.

I mean S-E literally gave dancer almost the same cure power a white mage has if they need focus on keeping people alive; Curing waltz 1-5 is identical to cure 2-6, just with a tp cost instead of an mp cost, and divine waltz 1 and 2 are the same as curaga 2 and 3. They even went so far as to give dancer easy access to 50% waltz potency with just a couple accessories. Also, chocobo jig II is just an AoE of chocobo jig I so there's no reason to ever use the first tier as a dnc main, meaning it once again aids the party by buffing them whenever you'd be buffing yourself anyway. Speaking from someone who also plays dancer as one of my mains, the job just feels fluid.
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By Solonuke 2021-10-16 09:56:45
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You're limited to a specific number of debuffs you can have on one target. For defense down, you're limited to GEO effects, dia, steps and general defense down effects. With some preparation, you can cap out the defense down effect from steps within 15 seconds after pulling. I think this is one of the reasons why dancer is really good on bosses but terrible at trash mobs.

DNC is pretty limited in the SC department, restricted to basically only darkness skillchains whereas THF has access to one additional fusion weaponskill.
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